Fire suppression

[Msg43]

I think it is overkill considering the risk. Cooling would be more cost effective if external heat is the issue you are trying to mitigate. Presumably you have access to lots of water on a boat, which could reduce the secondary heat. Once a fire were to start don't the battery components give off oxygen? So smothering it with traditional fire suppression means will not stop the fire. Best risk management strategy is to reduce secondary heat.

Regarding the fire balls, I can’t say from direct experience but my hunch would be to go with the original Elide balls if you go this route. I have not seen independent tests comparing them to the ALO copies, only comparisons by Elide showing the ALO’a to be much less effective. Obviously not much motive for Elide to be fair and objective here, but their comparisons and claims seem at least plausible.

I will be putting a few of these around my system. If you choose these I would recommend at least putting 2 or 3 in position, as being single instantaneous release extinguishers it would seem wise to have one or two “just in case one shot didn’t do it” backups.

Thanks for your insight! Thats Elide vs. ALO effectiveness distinction is news to me. Could you share the source?

 

[realpinochet]

If your equipment room is sealed or a separate building You could try Halon or even CO2 with some type of thermal actuator.

It would kill the fire but not the equipment.

I have seriously considered doing that for mine.

Just haven’t “gotten roundtuit “ yet..

We use Halon in our high end data centers. The issue I might see here is regardless of fire suppression these batteries tend to reignite. Look at all the EV cars that catch fire and the fire dep shows up and puts them out then they reignite hours or days latter.

 

[Danke]

Thanks for your insight! Thats Elide vs. ALO effectiveness distinction is news to me. Could you share the source?

The ones I linked to have the added feature of going off before flames reach it, as they are both fire and temperature (as in overheating batteries) activated.

 

[Danke]

We use Halon in our high end data centers. The issue I might see here is regardless of fire suppression these batteries tend to reignite. Look at all the EV cars that catch fire and the fire dep shows up and puts them out then they reignite hours or days latter.

The hope is it at least gives time for fire department to come and do their work and hopefully save structure.

 

[Msg43]

The hope is it at least gives time for fire department to come and do their work and hopefully save structure.

We use Halon in our high end data centers. The issue I might see here is regardless of fire suppression these batteries tend to reignite. Look at all the EV cars that catch fire and the fire dep shows up and puts them out then they reignite hours or days latter.

Also I think @Will Prowse pointed out in this thread that maybe other chemistries reignite but LFP would not:

Can LiFePO4 Batteries Combust in Thermal Runaway Event?

Just double checked, to be sure I wasn't mistaken. I was, it's the negative. (It is after midnight) edit: Actually just checked again and it is actually the positive. I'm too tired to think, Goodnight.

diysolarforum.com

 

[Msg43]

The ones I linked to have the added feature of going off before flames reach it, as they are both fire and temperature (as in overheating batteries) activated.

Wow great point I didn't even think about the temp vs flames distinction. @David Collins Elide seems to activate after 3-5 seconds of flames. Any thoughts on this? Thanks!

 

[David Collins]

Thanks for your insight! Thats Elide vs. ALO effectiveness distinction is news to me. Could you share the source?

It should all be taken with a grain of salt, as Elide obviously didn’t win the suit (the AFO balls are still being sold) and so I can’t say how objective their claims of AFO being so inferior and ineffective as to harm Elide’s product reputation are. But, information to review with reasonable discretion.

Alibaba taken to court over its fake fire-extinguishing ball

The inventor of a fire-extinguishing ball takes Alibaba and founder Jack Ma to court for allegedly permitting the sale of a fake version of the product.

www.cnet.com

 

[realpinochet]

We use Halon in our high end data centers. The issue I might see here is regardless of fire suppression these batteries tend to reignite. Look at all the EV cars that catch fire and the fire dep shows up and puts them out then they reignite hours or days latter. Also, we have visual and audible alarms along with data center security that keep tabs on who is in the center. You have to sign in and be tracked because if you miss the delay after the alarms go off and don't get a oxygen mask you're in trouble.

 

[Ampster]

We use Halon in our high end data centers.

What battery chemistry is used there?

 

[Danke]

Wow great point I didn't even think about the temp vs flames distinction. @David Collins Elide seems to activate after 3-5 seconds of flames. Any thoughts on this? Thanks!

FWIW:

 

[Maitake]

If LFP cannot provide its own oxygen for combustion, it seems keeping air from the vented gas of a failed cell(s) is all that is required.
Thinking an (almost) airtight insulated box with a snorkel to the outside would be adequate.
Rough numbers a 40KWH battery has the same energy stored as a gallon of fuel oil. Seems doable. Might look a bit like my oil burner when it's done?

Any inverter with UL listing should be safe enough to use under the listed conditions without further protections.

 

[Ampster]

If LFP cannot provide its own oxygen for combustion, it seems keeping air from the vented gas of a failed cell(s) is all that is required.

Good to know. I know that the other chemistries do provide their own oxygen which is one of many reasons they are more volatile.

 

[Hedges]

I would suggest a temperature sensitive disconnect of electrical (e.g. do something to make BMS disconnect.)

Not all reported LiFePO4 fires happened at high current or during charging, but likely many do.

 

[Prefersdirt]

Bringing this thread back up. Was thinking of the Elide fire balls and a CO2 system. My entire system will be in the garage. More worried about stopping the spread of any issues to the house than stopping the batteries (they will be on metal shelves away from the walls that are covered in concrete boarding). is there a way to setup a CO2 tank with a thermal trigger that is lower than the Elide Balls? Perhaps put them farther away from the system so the CO2 is triggered first?

 

[Shimmy]

is there a way to setup a CO2 tank with a thermal trigger that is lower than the Elide Balls? Perhaps put them farther away from the system so the CO2 is triggered first?

Usually you can get different fusible links... but for the CO2 to actually work is going to be a long shot unless you really design the system properly. Are you just going for belt and suspenders or is there a specific reason you think this is a good idea? Are you trying to protect against battery, inverter, or wiring issues? What battery chemistry?

A good read is here: https://www.epa.gov/snap/carbon-dioxide-fire-suppressant-examining-risks ...read the whole thing before trying to rig up a system!

 

[Goboatingnow]

I’m on a boat , it’s self extinguishing. The lithium fire will burn a hole in the hull and then sink into 19 metre of seawater. Problem solved. No need for anything else.

Hint keep your insurers on speed dial

 

[cs1234]

For a LiFePO4 system, it seems like an overhead sprinkler system would work fine to put out a fire on it and surrounding electronics. You just have to not care about whether any of it is usable afterwards. I'm not well versed on overhead fire suppression sprinkler systems, can you get them with some sort of foam or powder that doesn't damage electronics, but will smother the flames?

 

[eXodus]

I'd put the batteries in a tub or sink (enameled steel should be fireproof and insulating), so water could fill to immerse rather than running across the floor.
Do not put your hand in water with 48VDC present.

That's probably the cost effective solution. Add a bunch of pressurized PEX water lines above the batteries. If it gets hot enough they would melt and water would fill the tub. Add a metal float valve to the corner of the tub so that it doesn't overflow.

 

[svetz]

F-500 might interest you if you haven't seen it already.

 

[629658]

C CRYSTAL LEMON Fire Blanket Kitchen, Fire Blanket Fire Suppression Blanket, Fire Blanket Emergency, Emergency Survival Safety Cover for Kitchen, Fiberglass Blanket 39x39 inches https://a.co/d/f7zjItN

We have these located throughout our home. Seems like a reasonable stop gap to get the FD there in time.