Found a aussie made 52ah lithium cell

[alishac]

So been chatting to daisy about some cells I may get..
But I found in Australia a business manufacturing lithium cells only 52ah that I know of.
The guy imports the lithium powder from Europe, America or gets it locally in Australia
and manufactures them locally. They state they are military grade but the housing is the same
as the Chinese cells being aluminium. they do say that the difference is that you can open up the cells
to repair or upgrade which is different to the Chinese cells though unsure if that's true if they both
use the same housing.

The protection tests are the same as the eve cell data..

But what broke the docan staff is the cell data of their cells... They can't understand how the Aussie made cells
have 3c min 10c pulse but talking to the owner he said they can do 3c to 50c on a 52ah cell which they have
done for one the Australian governments that wanted 20c max continuous and 50c pulse...

I asked docan staff daisy as to why I have not seen any cells that have 3c min continuous and 10c pulse or anything other that
and why is the min only 1c max 5c pulse.

They couldn't figure it out and wanted to know the model number which would be different because the cells are made in australia.
They said they must be made in china.. I said nope these are 100% Australian cells.. I mean they do cost a bit more but you get 3c min compared to
1c min, they are lighter then the eve 50ah cells and smaller.. But I think Chinese people think all cells are made in china which made them confused.

But makes me think how is it that they can make better quality cells then china?

Also they can make a new cell with a new type of lithium powder using Ultra-High Power Lithium Titanate Oxide (UHPLTO) which min can do 30,000 cycles.

I can attach the cell data and the info on the company and cells which they also talk about the issues with Chinese cells in detail.

One thing is that the cells cost $110usd each or $171 AUD each compared to say 280ah cells in china are $110 each but again the 280c are max 1c continuos compared to 3c.

I'll also attach a picture of a battery pack made for a caravan with the 52ah cells and a 200a bms

 

[FyKnight]

Hmmm this could be great if you need high C discharge... sometimes. Because it doesn't mention anything about the cycle life at higher C discharge rates, just says 2000 cycles at 0.5 C.

I also wonder if it could do a higher C charge rate too... I have a project that could use them if so. And the ultra-high power LTO mentioned in the letter, with a 50,000 cycle life, that sounds interesting!

The price is heaps more of course. Last month I picked up some EVE 280Ah cells from the Sydney warehouse of an Alibaba seller for just under A$200 each — a quarter of the price per amp-hour. Then again, if the AUD keeps dropping the way it has been, won't be long before these LBA products are the cheapest cells in Australia

 

[alishac]

He told me its 2000 at 3c the ultra high one is the same as the toshiba scrib cells but instead of 20ah they are 40-50ah. Can you link me the alibaba that has a sydney warehouse?

 

[wattmatters]

Can you link me the alibaba that has a sydney warehouse?

+1

 

[Substrate]

Isn't the Off-Grid-Garage guy in Australia?

The Australian vendor should send some cells to him so he can crawl all over them, and we can check it out in his videos!

 

[toms]

These are LiFeTech cells. I have been using 200ah cells from this company i installed in 2012.

Mine are still performing as new, i’ll update with a cost/kwh review when they fall to 75% capacity.

 

[Substrate]

I went to the LifeTech site and now I'm intrigued after reading the faqs and so forth.

Surprised to see that in the projects page, that someone does realize that there *are* applications where no bms is used - basically using balance-upon-charge after use, etc. High end racing and so forth.

One application where a bms shouldn't be used that he might want to look into is wheelchair batts, where monster-motors high amperage inductive loads - and a bms point of failure while crossing the street, are issues. Balance upon charge when one gets home. Taken seriously, this might be an overlooked opportunity for those chair users that want to do it "right".

Very interesting...

 

[alishac]

The website is https://lithbattoz.com.au/ They are more expensive and they only do 52ah cells with prismatic and the LTO are 40-50ah,
and the ultra-high power LTO min 30k cycles up to 50c cells are around 40-50ah. He said anything over 52ah are not good and can have issues. I'd say that's some true because all the batteries for EV are 50-100ah not 200-300ah cells.. But yea they will cost allot more.. I'd love to get the ultra-high power LTO but I'd say if the 52ah prismatic costs $173 per cell it would cost around $350-$500 for the ultra-high power LTO cells in Australia. China doesn't cell the ultra-high power LTO but they do sell LTO.. When he talks about military grade its not true military grade. I seen USA military grade lithium batteries and they have much more protection these the ones that lifetech sells. His explanation of military grade is just that you can open the battery box up and change the cells if needs be which is the same thing as any DIY battery. Most top end military grade batteries have a stainless steel case which prevents explosions or fire coming outside the battery or each cell is cased with a thin layer of stainless steel instead of plastic.

 

[FyKnight]

+1

Here it is, but I haven't capacity-tested them yet, so buyer beware:

Aus In Stock New Lf280k Lifepo4 Battery Cells 6000 Cycles 3.2v 280ah Grade A Lifepo4 Battery For Home Solar Energy Storage Pack - Buy Grade A 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Battery Cell For Solar Storage System,4pcs 3.2v 302ah Lifepo4 Battery For Diy 12v 24v 48v

Aus In Stock New Lf280k Lifepo4 Battery Cells 6000 Cycles 3.2v 280ah Grade A Lifepo4 Battery For Home Solar Energy Storage Pack - Buy Grade A 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Battery Cell For Solar Storage System,4pcs 3.2v 302ah Lifepo4 Battery For Diy 12v 24v 48v Battery Pack,Akku Lifepo4 280ah Au Warehouse...

www.alibaba.com

I'll still be happy even if they're a bit under though — worth it to avoid the stress of having to wait months wondering what's going on. Not to mention avoiding freight costs.
They came with the studs already in them. Busbars in a separate bag. I decoded one QR code which said it was manufactured last year.

 

[wattmatters]

I'll still be happy even if they're a bit under though — worth it to avoid the stress of having to wait months wondering what's going on. Not to mention avoiding freight costs.
They came with the studs already in them. Busbars in a separate bag. I decoded one QR code which said it was manufactured last year.

Sounds promising and for all the reasons you quote. I'll never quite understand the Alibaba listing prices. It's always confusing.

It says $150/piece but up top says $110 for 4-99 pieces. That's quite a big difference.

I'll presume that's US dollars.

 

[alishac]

In AUD it says $242.57 per piece and $177.89 for 4-99 pieces for the 280k,

 

[Substrate]

Makes me wonder what his relationship is like with the DIY crowd. His whole point was not to shop for price, but performance. Precision manufacturing, cell matching for IR/resistance/self discharge, proper aging - that kind of thing.

I imagine the focus is on a different sales demographic - and why we don't see them on Amazon.

I still think it would be cool for Andy in his garage to check 'em out!

 

[alishac]

Makes me wonder what his relationship is like with the DIY crowd. His whole point was not to shop for price, but performance. Precision manufacturing, cell matching for IR/resistance/self discharge, proper aging - that kind of thing.

I imagine the focus is on a different sales demographic - and why we don't see them on Amazon.

Who's whole point? The aussie manufacturer.. I don't think he thinks anything of it but he did get upset with me when I first emailed him thinking I was looking for cheap Chinese junk cells. I think for him it's whatever people want that's up to them.. He did say he only does small jobs for RV/off-grid setups and he mainly sells to the military, government and large companies.. I do wonder though and have spoken to docan about the Chinese cells as to why the cells in china are all max 1c and this guys min is 3c on the prismatic and even he did a setup for a gov department that was 20c min with 40c impulse but none of the prismatic china cells get anywhere close to that.. docan couldn't give me an answer and I think they couldn't understand it.. asking me what material they used to make the cells I said the same as what you use. I guess its quality over non quality like this guy told me the high capacity cells tend to be fake and its kinda true I mean a 300ah cell weighs 5kg and a 52ah cell weighs 2kg that's interesting cause your would think the 300ah cell would be more then 5kg he said that also the cycles they state are not real considering its only 1c and to get the cycles they state you would need to charge/discharge at around 0.5c but with his min 3c cells you would get 5000 cycles at charging and discharging at 1-2c.. Also in china they don't cell the 280-302 cells to the companies and EV's that's all to retail the cells that are used in companies and evs are 50-170ah and you find that when asking china vendors if they got any 160-173ah cells and they tend to be sold out..I'd say performance wise the aussie made ones are way better then the chinese ones but it comes at a cost.

 

[Substrate]

Yeah. I find it honestly refreshing for him recognizing that certain specialized applications are best served without a bms. And to do that, you need high-quality, high-c cells in the first place which only need minor out-of-box charge balancing.

But whatever - I guess if one wants these, they'll look into them.

 

[alishac]

Yeah. I find it honestly refreshing for him recognizing that certain specialized applications are best served without a bms. And to do that, you need high-quality, high-c cells in the first place which only need minor out-of-box charge balancing.

But whatever - I guess if one wants these, they'll look into them.

Yea, I mean its interesting because I see people in Australia getting these eve 280ah cells and making a 12v 280ah battery with 250a bms and discharging at 200ah+ with impulse around 350ah.. And Im like the cells are only rated to 1c and they recommend to discharge at 0.5c if you want the "6000 cycles) they state which those are based on 80% the 100% is more like 2000-3000 but from what the aussie guy said that number normally is fake and no one really knows how many cycles because to count those 6000 cycles is allot.. even with the old agm batteries with 400-600 cycles no one really counted them. He said more likely the Chinese cells are 1500-2000 cycles not the 5000+ unless people discharge/charge at 0.5c.. With the min 3c cells you could discharge at 1-2c and still get 2000 cycles at 100% even more at 0.5c but I think some people that make DIY batteries think that adding a high discharge/charge bms doesn't do anything to the cycles or battery but it does.. But yea like you said if people want the 1c cells then go for it if they want the 3c+ cells go with that.. I mean they also have the LTO which is 20k-30k cycles and higher c rates but cost a bit more.. But I guess if you want higher C rating and performance then its going to cost you.. if you want lower C rating and lower performance then go with the prismatic Chinese cells

 

[Substrate]

Well yes - like all battery cycling tests, they are only performed under strict temperature controlled, and charge/discharge lab-conditions "sausage-factory" style - that is repetetively back to back, which conveniently "beats the clock" as far as chemical aging considered. Nevermind quality of construction.

That's not how we use them, which can lead to variables. And millions of message thread guesswork.

And, not all LFP is alike on the power to energy curve. Ie, you wouldn't put GBS cells in your EV to win races back in the day. To do that, you'd need much finer ground powder (aka nanophosphate) to intercalate faster with Winston, or higher end Calbs. Ah, old history now!

It *seems* that with his total control over production from raw powder, to construction, if I lived close I'd be tempted to have a few of those 52ah cells. Maybe the difference between a boutique micro-brewed beer, as compared to a blue-label generic one from the petrol-station.

 

[wattmatters]

In AUD it says $242.57 per piece and $177.89 for 4-99 pieces for the 280k,

I never noticed an AUD option on Alibaba before but just found it. Handy. $178 / 280 Ah cell is pretty nice.