got fined 1k for an off-grid, 500 dollar, 9 panel system i lay on the roof

[tialiden]

1) Every State has it's own rules about what does or doesn't need permits / inspections etc. Some regions/counties have ther own "bit" too.
2) DC is not meant for long distance. The battery packs need to be as close to thw inverters as possible. So installing batteries, Inverter into the Seacan with Solar on a rack mount (either attached or not to seacan) and then running your AC power out to the Target Structure is the simplest and most "isolated" PLUS the Least Expensive... You have no idea what 100' of double 4/0 would cost you. (nutz)
3) ON Grid Connected for a Feed In Tariff situation, things are complicated, needs permits & inspections. (Most Commonly)
4) OFF grid with no feed to Grid can be simpler but that varies from region to region...
5) Insurance Companies CANNOT BE FORGOTTEN, they can be such a PITA. They will make complications and want inspections etc... Never forget those bums, any excuse to deny any claims...

Thanks for the response. I think you misunderstood my option 2. I would also have the battery in the house as well. No way am I running all that copper to the house from a Seacan as you call it. So Option 2 for me would be way cheaper because I should just need to run the PV cable through a buried conduit from the Seacan to the house.

I had an epiphany today on where I can place the Seacan so as to keep the distance short as possible (maybe 100') and it would not be entering the opposite end of the house, it would be in the garage with my MSP, my offgrid MSP, and my batteries and inverters. Only downside is I am going to cut down some trees to clear a solar path, but it's a win because it's easier to have them deliver it and it's the most hidden from all but one neighbor, and I like fewer gripey neighbor risks.

OR I put everything in the container and do the AC run (but with my epiphany I no longer have to run overhead, and could pretty easily trench and conduit the AC line. Still on the fence. I do see Option A being the safest option if there's a fire.

 

[windsurfer]

2) DC is not meant for long distance. The battery packs need to be as close to thw inverters as possible.

Tell that to Thomas Edison. Edison Illumination Company was founded to provide dc power distribution in New York.

 

[Hedges]

Sure, DC can be sent long distances with IR drop just the same as AC.
And there is talk of HV DC transmission lines. Also superconducting.

Back in those days, no DC/DC converters to boost or reduce voltage. Motor-generator would have been needed. Transformers for AC are more convenient.

But for DIY PV systems here ...

When 48V (or 12V) DC from battery to inverter is used to make 120V or 240V AC, losses in DC is many times greater than in AC, for same distance and wire gauge.

More important is distance from SCC to battery, unless SCC has remote voltage sense (something I haven't seen.)

What is least significant is IR drop between PV panels and SCC, unless that is excessively low voltage. The equipment works just fine with large voltage drop in that path.

 

[Will Prowse]

Ground arrays have their own NEC requirements. Having a high voltage source laying on the ground likely violates some rule.



Since a pergola is not a "walkable" structure, it is not subject to the same requirements. This would likely be classified as a ground mount and subject to NEC/permitting requirements. This is a loophole that I'm considering for myself if I ever take the plunge. I have enough porch to where I could install about 5kW of PV as a ground mount. The idea another $900 of optimizer/shutoff modules just pisses me off.

In my town, permits are not required; however, all PV installations of any kind must be in compliance with NEC 2017.



No worries. I get it.

Do you know what rules? It side steps the fire safety codes and most local ordinances. Usually throwing panels on the ground is the best way to avoid permits. Would love for someone to prove me wrong on this.

 

[Will Prowse]

The thing you are all overlooking is the fact that the panels were not properly installed and this caught someone's attention. If you would of left them on the ground you would have been fine.

Yeah, they looked like a hazard. Anything on a roof needs to be secured. Don't want a 50 lbs glass panel flying off and hitting a kid in the head.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Do you know what rules?

Nope, just an assumption. I've done it many times as well.

It side steps the fire safety codes and most local ordinances. Usually throwing panels on the ground is the best way to avoid permits.

Agree. If nothing else, it's impossible to argue the arrangement is not "temporary" in nature.

 

[Kenny_]

Nope, just an assumption. I've done it many times as well.



Agree. If nothing else, it's impossible to argue the arrangement is not "temporary" in nature.

Yep...all kinds of municipal codes round here, I'm sure they'd trump up something...

 

[cs1234]

It would likely also depend on if you have it connected to your building, supplying power to the inside vs just charging some batteries outside.

 

[chilly2]

Why are you spending the time/effort to install/uninstall temporary solar panels? Isn't it more efficient to one and done the solar? Unless you are optimizing for strength training.

Given the small size of the system (2500W), it's possible he wanted to dip a toe in to begin with. Regardless of the "getting one over on the man / living free / etc" stuff, it's hard to commit tens of thousands on a serious setup without the confidence it's going to work out for your situation.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Yeah, they looked like a hazard. Anything on a roof needs to be secured. Don't want a 50 lbs glass panel flying off and hitting a kid in the head.

some of them we do! I would laugh my ass off the day the headlines read 4 crack dealers killed by flying solar panel.

 

[Zwy]

Nope, just an assumption. I've done it many times as well.



Agree. If nothing else, it's impossible to argue the arrangement is not "temporary" in nature.

I've seen reference to rooftop solar requiring RSD. I've looked at the code but still wonder about panels mounted on a vertical wall.

A few miles from here a fella mounted panels on the south slope of the roof. Acreage is on the south side of the highway. You can only tell there is an array up there from the conduit running down the north slope. I'll wager there are side doors and that is why it doesn't run down the south slope. I doubt it has any RSD.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I've seen reference to rooftop solar requiring RSD. I've looked at the code but still wonder about panels mounted on a vertical wall.

Rooftop installation requirements are driven largely by firefighter safety. If the code doesn't expressly state otherwise, I would argue a wall mount is a ground mount as it's connected to the ground, and a firefighter can't walk on a wall... yet.

 

[Hedges]

Except that all DC circuits on the house have to comply with voltage requirements.
Wall mount, that would need RSD
Ground mount but inverter on house, a disconnect switch in the right place would take care of it.
I would rather inside metal conduit was another way to comply, but I don't read that.

 

[cs1234]

Either RSD or maybe these boost MPPTs from this thread. Either drop the voltage, or keep it low from the panels in the first place. Losses due to low voltage would be significant though.

 

[gotbeans]

I've seen reference to rooftop solar requiring RSD. I've looked at the code but still wonder about panels mounted on a vertical wall.

A few miles from here a fella mounted panels on the south slope of the roof. Acreage is on the south side of the highway. You can only tell there is an array up there from the conduit running down the north slope. I'll wager there are side doors and that is why it doesn't run down the south slope. I doubt it has any RSD.

I have a feeling the "vertical wall" would depend on how high up it is on the wall and how angry the inspector is that day.

 

[k490]

Just had a solar contractor come to my door asking about my off grid system. He said they did a drone inspection of the neighborhood. I told him it was running a small off grid system in my shed powered a 12v light. He was selling lease systems.

 

[agoat]

Personally I'd be spot checking the work of the solar installers who called you in. Return the favor.

 

[cs1234]

Just had a solar contractor come to my door asking about my off grid system. He said they did a drone inspection of the neighborhood. I told him it was running a small off grid system in my shed powered a 12v light. He was selling lease systems.

Did he have a permit and flight plan for that drone inspection? The FAA gets really mad about those things.

 

[k490]

Did he have a permit and flight plan for that drone inspection? The FAA gets really mad about those things.

Likely they had a part 107 pilot do it. He was telling me how they sold a 9kw power plan system to some elderly people to knock off $50 from their bill a month. He told me give me $250 to get a neighbor to buy solar from him. I told him I always tell people to get 3 bids never from a door to door salesmen. Later I saw him in a Tesla model S and his friend was driving a newer Charger with pipes on it. I shouldn’t have talked to him at all couldn’t help myself they are so scummy.

 

[Kenny_]

Likely they had a part 107 pilot do it. He was telling me how they sold a 9kw power plan system to some elderly people to knock off $50 from their bill a month. He told me give me $250 to get a neighbor to buy solar from him. I told him I always tell people to get 3 bids never from a door to door salesmen. Later I saw him in a Tesla model S and his friend was driving a newer Charger with pipes on it. I shouldn’t have talked to him at all couldn’t help myself they are so scummy.

Not often, but sometimes I like playing along with these door to door salesmen/women...like bible thumpers at your door...

 

[glandpuck]

Hi everyone, I recently got dinged a 1000usd fine for what I believe to be a no-mount, off-grid system I put up a few weeks ago.

I bought 10x used 250 watt trina panels off facebook marketplace for 50 dollars each, and got a 5k growatt off-grid inverter and hooked it up to exclusively power my outdoor AC unit. I decided to be ambitious and throw them up on the roof, and planned to remove them before the rainy/windy season when it cools down. (I also added some spacers so theres a 1-inch gap above the roof, this is not in the photo attached)

maybe I was incredibly unlucky, but within 2 weeks the neighbor on my back side that is in view on the roof happened to have solar installers over on their roof, and I saw one of the guys take a picture. a few weeks later a "code enforcer" showed up and they fined me 1000 usd for an unpermitted solar install.

I happily removed the panels from the roof, restored everything and paid the fine, but I can now confirm the "no-mount, off-grid = no permit" is totally up to the inspector here in san jose, california. I dont plan to try and fight it, but the violation states that it was an "unpermitted solar install, installed on the roof, and hooked up to house electrical system".

I definitely dont want to fight the inspectors, since they are the ones that have the final say, but I do wonder if it was a correct interpretation of the code.

I'm in San Diego county. I have 2 permitted solar systems. One is grid tied and signed off by the utility. The second is off grid. The off-grid system required the same planning, inspecting, permitting and approvals as the grid tied system, the only exception being that the utility company was not involved in the project.

Also, question: I know San Jose property values are even higher than in San Diego. So why not just have some plans drawn, pull the permit, install the system yourself, have it inspected and run with the 30% Federal tax credit?

 

[Scoob-SanDiego]

NFPA NEC 2017+ requires panel mounted on a roof to have module level disconnects, i.e., a disconnect at every panel. This is for the protection of fire fighters engaging in roof operations. Your panels, while not permanently mounted, were still present and represented a potential high voltage hazard for firefighters. Not allowed.

Presumably the "Module level disconnect" is either the built-in MC4 connectors (which can be disconnected at the panel level) and/or a PV disconnect box outside the house before the PV wires get inside the house??? or a PV disconnect box next to the array on the roof???

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Presumably the "Module level disconnect" is either the built-in MC4 connectors (which can be disconnected at the panel level) and/or a PV disconnect box outside the house before the PV wires get inside the house??? or a PV disconnect box next to the array on the roof???

Nope. It has to be automatic and per module. Basically, you must have either micro-inverters that shut down each panel automatically, or a shutdown box that isolates the panel when the master PV disconnect is cut off.

Some models of Tigo optimizers add shutdown function. Costs about $50/panel.

This unit looks like it can handle 2S 60 cell panels:

Tigo TS4-A-2F

The Tigo TS4-A-2F is a reliable, cost effective rapid shutdown solution that meets the latest module level shutdown requirements, including NEC 2017/2020. The TS4-A-2F is both IEC and UL certified for global acceptance. It is UL PVRSS certified for connectivity with the largest network of...

www.tigoenergy.com

 

[Lighthouse Beacon]

Hi everyone, I recently got dinged a 1000usd fine for what I believe to be a no-mount, off-grid system I put up a few weeks ago.

I bought 10x used 250 watt trina panels off facebook marketplace for 50 dollars each, and got a 5k growatt off-grid inverter and hooked it up to exclusively power my outdoor AC unit. I decided to be ambitious and throw them up on the roof, and planned to remove them before the rainy/windy season when it cools down. (I also added some spacers so theres a 1-inch gap above the roof, this is not in the photo attached)

maybe I was incredibly unlucky, but within 2 weeks the neighbor on my back side that is in view on the roof happened to have solar installers over on their roof, and I saw one of the guys take a picture. a few weeks later a "code enforcer" showed up and they fined me 1000 usd for an unpermitted solar install.

I happily removed the panels from the roof, restored everything and paid the fine, but I can now confirm the "no-mount, off-grid = no permit" is totally up to the inspector here in san jose, california. I dont plan to try and fight it, but the violation states that it was an "unpermitted solar install, installed on the roof, and hooked up to house electrical system".

I definitely dont want to fight the inspectors, since they are the ones that have the final say, but I do wonder if it was a correct interpretation of the code.

Well your first mistake is living in california, the second mistake was moving to the roof (as you mentioned), I would pay fine and leave the panels offline for 2 months. When I felt like the inspector is done with a potential follow up I'd go back to your ground mounts (out of sight), and attach to your system you want to power.

I would also put up a camera and pay attention to anyone entering your property illegally.
I would also make a point to be very very friendly with all your surrounding neighbors.
Being on excellent terms with your neighbors is a MUST if you're doing any unpermitted work.

If it happens again, FOIA your county/state permit office for who cited the violation. Was it spotted by an inspector (accidently?) I doubt it.. Some neighbor thinks panels are tacky and didn't want to see them on your roof, and called... that's 90% of violations, it's a complaint and a follow up.

Be sure to keep that neighbor out of sight of anything you do

I know the weathers nice but Cali sucks bro

freedom is sweet

Good luck buddy,

 

[Scoob-SanDiego]

Nope. It has to be automatic and per module. Basically, you must have either micro-inverters that shut down each panel automatically, or a shutdown box that isolates the panel when the master PV disconnect is cut off.

Some models of Tigo optimizers add shutdown function. Costs about $50/panel.

This unit looks like it can handle 2S 60 cell panels:

Tigo TS4-A-2F

The Tigo TS4-A-2F is a reliable, cost effective rapid shutdown solution that meets the latest module level shutdown requirements, including NEC 2017/2020. The TS4-A-2F is both IEC and UL certified for global acceptance. It is UL PVRSS certified for connectivity with the largest network of...

www.tigoenergy.com

Really!?!?!?
$50/panel? That is ... well, ridiculous, insane... I'd have to think of other negative attribute to describe my feelings toward such requirements LOL

BTW: Do you (or anyone reading this) have a link to an online version (or PDF) of the NEC 2017 and/or 2020 ??

2017 NEC 690.12 Rapid Shutdown – Important Changes

Learn more about the important changes to the 2017 NEC 690.12 Rapid Shutdown code.

www.purepower.com

Rapid Shutdown Code – Part 2 (Effective after January 1, 2019)

<snip>

What this means to you:

This “inside the array boundary” part is all new and doesn’t resemble the previous requirements. Sub-item 1 requires a UL standard that isn't out yet, and sub-item 3 is intended for BIPV, so we will skip both.

Sub-item 2 is the big one that changes the rooftop solar industry. Simply put, it's limiting the string voltage to 80Vdc. The days of 600V or 1000V strings are over… unless you use optimizers or MLPE that can throttle the voltage down to 80V when rapid shutdown is initiated.

https://www.purepower.com/blog/2017-nec-690.12-rapid-shutdown-important-changes

VERY interesting and clarifying article....
An interesting tidbit for me is the part that says:

"Controlled conductors located inside the boundary or not more than 1 m (3 ft) from the point of penetration of the surface of the building shall be limited to not more than 80 volts ...."

With my lowly 24V system (MPP LV2424), the operating voltage of the inverter is 30-80V and my strings 6 strings are running at just 62V. The interesting part above is the "OR not more than 1m from the point of penetration of the surface of the building... no more than 80V."

Soooooo, if I just enter the building within 3' of my array and I'm compliant (with THAT part of the requirements).... Of course there is the part about getting a permit and be a licensed installer..... what BS! But I can do my part in embracing the safety requirements w/o running to the county for a permit. For the sake of the safety of the firemen... not the county bureaucrats

And if you need higher voltage string (or you truly want to be compliant, get a permit and all that), then TIGO now has a 2 panel module that goes (as of Feb 2024) for about $50 on Amazon:

Tigo Energy Tigo TS4-A-2F PV Module-Level Rapid Shutdown for Two Modules
https://www.amazon.com/Tigo-Energy-Module-Level-Shutdown-Modules/dp/B09CN2XL9D


Other useful videos that explain Solar Rapid Shutdown: