diy solar

diy solar

Have solar for my home - Was wondering about getting Batteries

natesroom

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So I have had solar for my house for a year and it has been great. I live in Florida so we have to "be connected" to the grid, but thats my only cost. Originally when i was discussing battery systems with the installer it was about 15k (which i thought was crazy. I have been watching Will Prowse Youtube for months and his stuff is great, but i am not electrically inclined nor does it interest me (as a career or to study more then just what i need)

I have a 15.04 kWp system on my roof and it seems over this year my best day of production was a 101 kWh. I am not sure what to do next as it would pertain to battery backups etc. I know I need to install some type of "Switch" for when pulling from the battery vs grid etc. Would anyone be willing to help me in figuring out what would work and what i might need?
 
If you have a grid-tie system, it may not have the ability to connect in a battery bank if it was designed to work only batteryless. You would have to look at the exact specs on it.

If that was the case, you would have to get a grid-tie all-in-one that has provisions for battery management. Those will have the ability too to auto-transfer (ATS built in).

Depending on certain factors, one could build in another system along side to add UPS-like functionality as well. Use an all-in-one inverter with a battery bank with only grid AC-charging for battery bank, and wire some circuits into the house, can eventually wire more solar panels to that if desired.

But to integrate into the existing setup, you would probably have to replace the grid-tie solar controller device with an all-in-one inverter, but it would have to meet UL 1741 specs for grid-tie and all that, if you wanted to still have it backfeed excess power back onto the grid.

Can you check your existing grid-tie appliance and see what the specs are on it? Does it have any provisions for connecting batteries to it?
 
Ok this is great info i will investigate and read up what all i have. I do remember discussing the need to have an auto-transfer on whatever we went with(ATS built in).
 
You simply need to get a battery and install an AC Coupled battery inverter.

Several companies make good quality battery inverters that can "trick" your grid tied solar into making power. I use one in my home. Our 12kW system is fully grid tied, but when the grid goes down, as it often does here in the countryside, I just flip a couple switches and our battery based system powers the house.. a few minutes later, the grid tied system sees the "grid quality" power, and it also starts back up.

The AC Coupled battery inverters are bi-directional. If the solar makes more power than the house uses, the inverters use the extra juice to charge the batteries.. If the solar doesn't make enough power, the inverter draws from the batteries to make up for the deficit.

Its actually a very simple system.. fewer connections, fewer wires, less stuff than most DC coupled off-grid systems.

Here's a picture.. this is my off-grid system.. it just plugs into my circuit breaker box like a home generator would..
 

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Thats what i thought, but how do you determine what size and what type of inverter, also how close does the stuff have to be to the main panel where the solar stuff is?
 
You simply need to get a battery and install an AC Coupled battery inverter.

Several companies make good quality battery inverters that can "trick" your grid tied solar into making power. I use one in my home. Our 12kW system is fully grid tied, but when the grid goes down, as it often does here in the countryside, I just flip a couple switches and our battery based system powers the house.. a few minutes later, the grid tied system sees the "grid quality" power, and it also starts back up.

The AC Coupled battery inverters are bi-directional. If the solar makes more power than the house uses, the inverters use the extra juice to charge the batteries.. If the solar doesn't make enough power, the inverter draws from the batteries to make up for the deficit.

Its actually a very simple system.. fewer connections, fewer wires, less stuff than most DC coupled off-grid systems.

Here's a picture.. this is my off-grid system.. it just plugs into my circuit breaker box like a home generator would..

Sounds like a great alternative to working with grid-tie equipment.

Potentially there would be an easy way to wire in a separate ATS / relay to automate the switching, as the OP might not want to have any user-intervention when the power goes out?
 
Sounds like a great alternative to working with grid-tie equipment.

Potentially there would be an easy way to wire in a separate ATS / relay to automate the switching, as the OP might not want to have any user-intervention when the power goes out?
With the Sunny Islands, and I believe most other inverters capable of AC Coupling, they can switch over on their own with internal relays compliant with UL1741..

I just don't wire mine that way because I want my off-grid system to be completely isolated from the grid at all times. The way mine is wired is actually abnormal.. most folks wire them per the instructions.. when the grid goes down, the Sunny Islands isolate the grid and shift to a critical loads panel.. I'm just not into critical load panel setups.. like to have the entire house running.

That said, yes, you could wire in a transfer switch easily enough.. I just didn't do it.
 
Would anyone be willing to help me in figuring out what would work and what i might need?
First it would be helpful to know why you want to add a battery and what you expect a battery system to do.

Knowing this will change the type of solution you might consider.

Several companies make good quality battery inverters that can "trick" your grid tied solar into making power. I use one in my home. Our 12kW system is fully grid tied, but when the grid goes down, as it often does here in the countryside, I just flip a couple switches and our battery based system powers the house.. a few minutes later, the grid tied system sees the "grid quality" power, and it also starts back up.
It can control the whole 12kW solar PV system? That's pretty impressive.

I guess if the system is not UPS/auto cutover then it doesn't need to worry about a scenario of managing a high power dump load. It will more gracefully manage the PV output as it ramps up when starting.

The scenario I'm talking about is when a system is designed to cutover automatically from grid connection to solar/battery power only.

e.g. say the OP's battery is fully charged, the grid tied PV system is pumping out 15kW and the home is not using much power and so most of the power output is being exported to the grid. Then the grid goes out and now that 15kW has to go somewhere... Inverter frequency control ain't going to manage that problem fast enough.
 
With the Sunny Islands, and I believe most other inverters capable of AC Coupling, they can switch over on their own with internal relays compliant with UL1741..

I just don't wire mine that way because I want my off-grid system to be completely isolated from the grid at all times. The way mine is wired is actually abnormal.. most folks wire them per the instructions.. when the grid goes down, the Sunny Islands isolate the grid and shift to a critical loads panel.. I'm just not into critical load panel setups.. like to have the entire house running.

That said, yes, you could wire in a transfer switch easily enough.. I just didn't do it.

Oh I see what you're doing now. I kind of skimmed by a bit fast on first run and thought you meant you put in like a specific turn-key UPS product solution meeting those requirements. Yeah essentially (I looked your post over better and see the system and clicked on picture instead of just looking at the thumbnail, etc)...

You basically built along the lines of what I had mentioned in my first response to OP above, to build a separate system using an all-in-one in tandem along side to offer UPS-like function, in your case using a Sunny Islands AIO..

Yeah, just something like that would be simple to add in alongside the existing setup without interfering with the grid-tie system, like building a big giant UPS...
 
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e.g. say the OP's battery is fully charged, the grid tied PV system is pumping out 15kW and the home is not using much power and so most of the power output is being exported to the grid. Then the grid goes out and now that 15kW has to go somewhere... Inverter frequency control ain't going to manage that problem fast enough.

These are all things that i was not aware of that i would need to dial in when figuring out the cost and items needed for this. So currently i am tied to the grid and "selling back (more like they are stealing but whatever)" unused production at the end of the year so it basically stores it for me in the grid.

My ideal would be a to have a battery backup system that could store and produce enough to supplement my household use if the grid is down through any means. So i could switch to the backup system and the panels would produce on the best day up to 100 kWh, but more like an average of 80. Currently over this year i am running a surplus of about 200+ kWh so my system practically covers the usage of the day with a little extra. Not sure the size battery system i would need to run something like this.

Obviously if the grid goes out we would dial back our usage, but in florida AC is mandatory (or an awful large amount of fans), lol.
 
e.g. say the OP's battery is fully charged, the grid tied PV system is pumping out 15kW and the home is not using much power and so most of the power output is being exported to the grid. Then the grid goes out and now that 15kW has to go somewhere... Inverter frequency control ain't going to manage that problem fast enough.

In this scenario, the Sunny Islands have three option settings:
1) Raise grid frequency above 62hz which will cause the grid tied inverters on the solar array to "trip" out and shut down until freq specs come back inline.
2) Send the extra power to a dump load such as water heating
3) Engage FSPC (Frequency Shift Power Control). <This is how mine works. The Sunny Islands can "throttle" my grid tied inverters to reduce their power output to exactly match the loads in the house..
 
Oh I see what you're doing now. I kind of skimmed by a bit fast on first run and thought you meant you put in like a specific turn-key UPS product solution meeting those requirements. Yeah essentially (I looked your post over better and see the system and clicked on picture instead of just looking at the thumbnail, etc)...

You basically built along the lines of what I had mentioned in my first response to OP above, to build a separate system using an all-in-one in tandem along side to offer UPS-like function, in your case using a Sunny Islands AIO..

Yeah, just something like that would be simple to add in alongside the existing setup without interfering with the grid-tie system, like building a big giant UPS...

That is kind of what it is.. sort of..

There's a 25kWh lithium battery inside my cabinet.. Truth be told, when its a sunny day outside, I shut down one of my two 6kW Sunny Boy grid tied inverters because the entire 12kW isn't needed unless I'm running the air conditioning.. and even then its not really required.

Here's a picture of the inside of the cabinet.
 

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These are all things that i was not aware of that i would need to dial in when figuring out the cost and items needed for this. So currently i am tied to the grid and "selling back (more like they are stealing but whatever)" unused production at the end of the year so it basically stores it for me in the grid.

My ideal would be a to have a battery backup system that could store and produce enough to supplement my household use if the grid is down through any means. So i could switch to the backup system and the panels would produce on the best day up to 100 kWh, but more like an average of 80. Currently over this year i am running a surplus of about 200+ kWh so my system practically covers the usage of the day with a little extra. Not sure the size battery system i would need to run something like this.

Obviously if the grid goes out we would dial back our usage, but in florida AC is mandatory (or an awful large amount of fans), lol.

Wow.. perspective is a real B*tch. At 200 kWh, I consider my surplus to be running on empty.

Went into this Michigan winter with 3200 kWh.. I'm down to 1600 right now. When I hit 500, I turn off the electric heaters and switch to the wood stove.
 
Im not sure of what is good or bad as im still fairly new. here is what i produced this year so far (just discovered i have a monitoring issue half way through november so it only recorded half the month) January it was installed on the 18th so missed over half the month. Its still producing just not monitoring (solaredge)

1640205435325.png
 
Wow.. perspective is a real B*tch. At 200 kWh, I consider my surplus to be running on empty.

Went into this Michigan winter with 3200 kWh.. I'm down to 1600 right now. When I hit 500, I turn off the electric heaters and switch to the wood stove.
Well in Florida we get year round sun - its just the rain we gotta worry about messing up the skies
 
My ideal would be a to have a battery backup system that could store and produce enough to supplement my household use if the grid is down through any means. So i could switch to the backup system and the panels would produce on the best day up to 100 kWh, but more like an average of 80.
That's a lot of energy.

Do you need so much energy for backup?
Does everything need to be powered during a grid outage?
How long do you expect to need backup for?
What sort of peak power draw do you need to cover?

I think a backup energy audit is worth doing.

If you really do need to supply that much juice you may want to consider alternative means of supplying backup power, such as a large generator. Or at least a solar/battery system which has a generator for supplemental energy/backup.

For an off-grid battery and inverter system to have enough capacity to supply of 80-100kWh/day is going to be big and expensive. Especially as it will do very little most of the time.

And going with a grid tied battery system is also going to be expensive. They just are. No idea of the regulatory environment where you are nor the sort of import/export tariff regime you have but it is generally pretty hard to make a valid financial case for installing grid tied batteries. The energy throughput cost of batteries which would conform to code is still pretty high, usually it's just cheaper to buy from the grid.

While our home scenario is not quite the energy size of yours, we can in the Summer here be pulling 100kWh/day with family/guests staying and more aircon operating. Our biggest day was 144kWh.

But my off-grid backup system is not designed to power everything in an outage. It's designed to supply power for the basics while appliances such as ducted aircon, oven, induction stove and other high power draw circuits do not operate during outages. This cuts down the scope of the backup system considerably.

I have an 11kW grid tied system. Yours I'm guessing is at least 3 times that.

My off-grid backup is 2.2kW PV, 4kW AIO inverter and 18kWh of SLA batteries. Connects to the house power via a transfer switch, and those high power circuits are not connected to the off-grid side of the supply. I also have a 3kW inverter generator which can supply power to AIO inverter should the solar conditions be insufficient to charge the batteries in the daytime.

Basic household load without use of any aircon is ~500W give or take, so most stuff is well covered and the battery will last half a day comfortably and for the most part the off-grid array will have enough production to provide power and recharge the battery. If the weather is crummy then I can plug the generator in and 2 hours of that will be enough to provide 8 hours of battery backup.

Our second small dwelling can operate their aircon if needed as it is a small and efficient split system. We hope to also have a small split system option in future for one part of the home which would also be within the scope of the system to manage. We can cool off in the pool and the fridges will have cold beverages! Else fans do the job of providing some comfort.

If we need to cook, the microwave, BBQ and portable gas camping stove and good options.

If it's Winter (rare for outages in Winter here) and we need heat, well we have fireplaces. Don't use them much but they are available if really needed. Doesn't get that cold here, never below freezing.
 
No this is good info, - Correct i would not power the whole house, i think our system is very similar an dprobably our usage. I have a 15kw system, but i would signifacntly use less if possible. How does one go about conducting a backup energy audit?
 
Batteries cost more per kWh (by the time they wear out) than just buying power from the grid, so you won't save money with them.
Exception could be DIY batteries, or off-brand systems with recycled batteries.

You need to decide how many kW instantaneous of loads you want to power while grid is down, how much surge to start motors, and how many kWh of capacity. That means decide which loads you want to run, get their label ratings, and consider percentage of time they run (e.g. refrigerators cycle on and off.)

What inverters do you have? If they implement UL-1741-SA frequency-watts option, they can play nice with AC coupled battery inverters.
If they play along, up to 13 kW of your inverters could be coupled to two Sunny Island (double that for four Sunny Island). Other brands have various capacities. Schneider, Outback, for instance. Tesla and Sunny Boy Storage are models using high-voltage batteries.

It is possible to run A/C with the power coming from PV, having a small battery which powers inverter for starting surge.
 
Just a quick estimate@wattmatters
what did you think that cost for your setup? I'm looking around and it seems like 6-7k for something of that size.
 
Batteries cost more per kWh (by the time they wear out) than just buying power from the grid, so you won't save money with them.
Exception could be DIY batteries, or off-brand systems with recycled batteries.

You need to decide how many kW instantaneous of loads you want to power while grid is down, how much surge to start motors, and how many kWh of capacity. That means decide which loads you want to run, get their label ratings, and consider percentage of time they run (e.g. refrigerators cycle on and off.)

What inverters do you have? If they implement UL-1741-SA frequency-watts option, they can play nice with AC coupled battery inverters.
If they play along, up to 13 kW of your inverters could be coupled to two Sunny Island (double that for four Sunny Island). Other brands have various capacities. Schneider, Outback, for instance. Tesla and Sunny Boy Storage are models using high-voltage batteries.

It is possible to run A/C with the power coming from PV, having a small battery which powers inverter for starting surge.
I dont know what PV means
 
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