diy solar

diy solar

House burned down

so i see your house or life is not much worth?

i dont care about someone ignoring me, its about the other reading this and make their own conclusions.

Perhaps if you were a bit more tactful you wouldn't rub people the wrong way,... there are ways to express your opinion politely and still get your point across.

"but you can learn in the next disaster."
 
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yes it protect the wire form burning your house down
it will not protect your battery.
but you can learn in the next disaster...
What if someone is using 2/0 wire with 125A fast acting Class Ts and 100A BMS's for multiple (over 5) packs in parallel?
How would that protect the wire and not the battery?
is your house or life not worth to spend 450usd for 4x jk bms?
No, I'd use contactor based JBD's.
or you dont want it because you have already a overpriced useless bms?
How is any BMS overpriced and useless if it does its job?
 
How is any BMS overpriced and useless if it does its job?
look at the first post of the thread

What if someone is using 2/0 wire with 125A fast acting Class Ts and 100A BMS's for multiple (over 5) packs in parallel?
How would that protect the wire and not the battery?

the bms protect the battery not the fuse.
if the charging current of the faulty battery is lower than the trip current of the fuse your battery will burn or explode causing other banks starting fire and your fuse cant do anything about it. only a bms can per paralel bank.

it does not matter how low your fuse is, the charging current can be even lower and overcharge cells over several hours.
a batrium used in first post of this thread cant do anyting in this case. maybe it can make an alarm sound but what if youre not at home.
 
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I would suspect that in may cases it is simply a misunderstanding of cultures. I just spent the better part of the last two weeks in communications with SunGoldPower over technical specifications with respect to "open loop" vs "closed loop" communications between batteries and their SunGoldPower 10kw inverter. In every instance they responded to each and every email I sent (yes at least 24 hours delay due to time zones). Each response to my emails reflected courtesy and politeness on their part and I hopefully responded in kind. I suspect that some of the hinderance in our communication was my lack of Chinese and their lack of my somewhat "English" vernacular. In the end they answered my questions. Patience, courtesy and respect will ultimately win the day for all concerned.
 
I would suspect that in may cases it is simply a misunderstanding of cultures. I just spent the better part of the last two weeks in communications with SunGoldPower over technical specifications with respect to "open loop" vs "closed loop" communications between batteries and their SunGoldPower 10kw inverter. In every instance they responded to each and every email I sent (yes at least 24 hours delay due to time zones). Each response to my emails reflected courtesy and politeness on their part and I hopefully responded in kind. I suspect that some of the hinderance in our communication was my lack of Chinese and their lack of my somewhat "English" vernacular. In the end they answered my questions. Patience, courtesy and respect will ultimately win the day for all concerned.
well said
 
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look at the first post of the thread
I've read the entire thing. Nowhere does the first post point to a BMS failure.
the bms protect the battery not the fuse.
Until it doesn't.
if the charging current of the faulty battery is lower than the trip current of the fuse your battery will burn or explode causing other banks starting fire and your fuse cant do anything about it. only a bms can per paralel bank.
Not necessarily.
it does not matter how low your fuse is, the charging current can be even lower and overcharge cells over several hours.
a batrium used in first post of this thread cant do anyting in this case. maybe it can make an alarm sound but what if youre not at home.
Again no mention of BMS in the first post.

........

Good luck with your system.
 
Oh my! You spittin fire! Not sure many here know much about surface mount fuses on pcb boards....aka no wires
Im gona get in trouble with you.
:)


As discussed earlier in this thread, semiconductor fuses are simply designed with faster time/current curves. But from looking at those most are very similar to standard class T fuses. They seem to be mostly just a different package style and size.

look at the first post of the thread



the bms protect the battery not the fuse.
if the charging current of the faulty battery is lower than the trip current of the fuse your battery will burn or explode causing other banks starting fire and your fuse cant do anything about it. only a bms can per paralel bank.

it does not matter how low your fuse is, the charging current can be even lower and overcharge cells over several hours.
a batrium used in first post of this thread cant do anyting in this case. maybe it can make an alarm sound but what if youre not at home.

The problem with just depending on the standard BMS to disconnect the battery is it uses mosfets to disconnect. They are very fast, on the order of 10x faster than a class T fuse (0.000001s to 0.0000010s). But when you overcurrent a mosfet it breaks down the semiconductor junction and becomes a short 99% of the time. That short will typically only last a few seconds the blow open.

But, in a situation like the OP that few seconds would have been enough to melt the sheath from the wires and cause shorts and more trouble.

Using class T fuses on each string will disconnect the batteries from each other. But they work in 0.01s to 0.10s. The Mega fuse works on 0.1s to 2s. The ANL is a bit slower than that. All the different types have different time/current curves.

The other aspect is the AIC rating. The class T , filled with a sand mixture, can extinguish an arc 5x to 10x more than a Mega fuse or ANL. This all depends on the voltage involved when the arc starts.

In the case of a BMS based battery with mosfets that are shorted the current can be VERY large, on the order of several thousand amps. This goes for DIY or factory built batteries.

Contactors in the range we would use can switch open in 0.001s to 0.003s. They are like a relay, but the load contacts are larger and they are sealed and filled with a gas that extinguishes an arc at a much higher current than a relay. The larger the contactor the larger the arc they can break.

Not exactly sure what a shunt trip is, but I assume it is a contactor like device that opens when commanded or when excess current is detected.

Fuses can arc across the burned away links. Contactors can have their internal load contacts welded shut. MOSFETs can short. Everything has a failure mode.

The batrium in this case uses fuses between batteries and a shunt trip upstream. The current recomendation is a shunt trip per string, no idea what it was when built.

There are other BMS that use contactors instead of mosfets. So there is nothing inherently wrong with the design.

When I build a battery from scratch I will probably use a traditional BMS that can use contactors and oversize them. And I will probably also use a contactor and class T on the connection to the inverter. The contactor controlled by a shunt. I am also considering a shunt per string as a second method of turning off string contactor in the event the BMS is damaged. I have a lot of thought to put into it before I am ready to design this.
 
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I have a lot of thought to put into it before I am ready to design this.
I am beginning to understand the case for an oversized BMS and undersized fuse/wire to increase system impedance in highly parallel systems. (Say design load per string is 50A-- set your BMS parameters for 50A, but size it at 100A, and fuse it at 60-70A as an example.)
 
I am beginning to understand the case for an oversized BMS and undersized fuse/wire to increase system impedance in highly parallel systems. (Say design load per string is 50A-- set your BMS parameters for 50A, but size it at 100A, and fuse it at 60-70A as an example.)

Sorry, a bit long -

You can do that but it would still be treating the BMS as a fuse/OPD (overcurrent protection device). The other reason not to do it is efficiency higher impedance would mean higher heat loss. Also if a set of batteries dump into another the extra impedance would be like light bulb filaments, burn hotter and hotter unless they had enough air cooling they would eventually melt the sheath.

When the mosfet on the BMS is most likely to fail is where there is a dead short across the terminals or wire between the terminal and the bus bar.

The other case which is similar to thread most likely cause is the two or more strings dumping current into a single string.

The cause can be hooking up a low SOC string to a set of two or more other strings that are fully charged. It can be a shorted cell causing lower impedance in a string. This causes the whole string inpedance to be less than other strings so they dump current to try and equalize. But no matter how much they dump the voltage and resistance never comes up so they keep dumping.

Assume all strings are fused with class T
With one other string the dump doesn't ever exceed either fuse OR the BMS max current - things get hot and cells may or may not vent.
With two other strings the current will exceed the short string fuse and BMS - The BMS tries to shutdown the current and it is at 200% capacity - no bet on if it succeeds or the mosfets on it short. If it succeeds then current is turned off in 0.0001sec or so. If it fails then the fets short and the class T blows after a period of time.
With three other strings the current can be 3 times rated current of the bad string the class T lasts 30 seconds.

The more strings the more times rated current can flow - Ohms law applies and you can do the math to figure out how much depending on a dead short internal or 1 or more shorted cells.

At 2 times rated current the class T will last 5 full minutes - long enough for the heating to cause a problem
At 5 times rated current (short) it blows in a very reasonable time.

Just a sample of 100amp JJN fuse chart

1715959621725.png


The OP had 7 strings using Mega fuses - 125v 58v - here is the chart - Should blow in 0.1 sec


1715959952876.png



But, as it blows the fuse element draws an arc across the empty space it leaves behind. Very small voltage 2.45v if it was a single cell, but at 600 amps the arc would continue even though the fuse element is gone. Arcs are very very hot - we weld steel with it and do other things. Now the AIC of that type fuse is 2500amps - so in theory it should have gone out while the element was still burning away.

But we have seen with testing a dead short a lot of times blows apart the cheaper and plastic body fuses. Usually with some fire and melted metal fuse element.

So we are back to not enough left to know the actual cause of the fire.

To extinguish an arc the higher AIC rated fuses are filled with sand or other things that block the arc physically. They are also physically larger with a longer distance the arc would have to fill to keep on once the element is burned away. They also typically have a ceramic or reinforced fiberglass body to contain the arc and resulting heat.

So to my way of thinking the ideal method to be safe would be a combination of items - fuses, BMS, shunts, controller.

One idea - a batrium style BMS with shut trips on all strings watching for overcurrent in or out and a contactor to turn a string/all strings off.
-- this is basically how batrium recommends installing today, not sure about 5 years ago -

Also a fuse on each string in case the contactor fails shorted - I haven't looked at the docs to see if batrium recommends this.

The other idea is to substitute a standard BMS for the batrium per string and have a shunt that trips a contactor if overcurrent is detected for more than X number of milliseconds - X to be determined by nuisance trips verse high loads kicking in and drawing current.
Trip at the wrong time and the compressor stalls and you loose your airplane ... uhm - wait, wrong window - :) But for real, if you trip when an AC is starting it stalls the compressor and can't start again until that bleeds off, they have a pressure switch for this.

Follow the shunt/contactor/controller combo with a fuse per string.

YES, it will cost a bit more, but it covers all possible faults that I can think of other than being in a fireproof detached room to start with.
 
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Well maybe, but that’s not a very nice thing to say. Asia/China has built everything in your home and it’s a second language to them. Everyone here speaks multiple languages? you are being a toxic “new member” Guess karma is less important than a fuse rating?

Sorry, but I disagree. Technical support needs to be both accurate and unambiguous, otherwise it risks making the matter worse. The answer shown failed on both counts.

I dont know or care what nationality the author is or what their native language is. My response was based purely on the quality of the work product.

Poor technical support is a huge problem in this industry.

Additionally, non-redundant mosfet switches should never be relied on as the only shutoff in a high power safety critical system.
 
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Sorry, but I disagree. Technical support needs to be both accurate and unambiguous, otherwise it risks making the matter worse. The answer shown failed on both counts.

I dont know or care what nationality the author is or what their native language is. My response was based purely on the quality of the work product.

Poor technical support is a huge problem in this industry.

Additionally, non-redundant mosfet switches should never be relied on as the only shutoff in a high power safety critical system.
One time at work we had to get the plant operator and an engineer interpret a chain of email from a part supplier that used Google translate to order..
Went from English to Fin to Russian and back again.
A LOT was lost in translation and the parts did not fit lol

Thats the kid of stuff that can lead to serious accidents and death...
Should be a law if you sell anything that instructions need to be easy to read and understand.
 
One time at work we had to get the plant operator and an engineer interpret a chain of email from a part supplier that used Google translate to order..
Went from English to Fin to Russian and back again.
A LOT was lost in translation and the parts did not fit lol

Thats the kid of stuff that can lead to serious accidents and death...
Should be a law if you sell anything that instructions need to be easy to read and understand.

I absolutly agree on written instructions - they should be clear and proof read AFTER translation by a native speaker of the final language.

For email and voice tech support where you can ask for clarification on what they are saying having to do so can be frustrating, but is ok.

The only times I really have an issue is when the accent is so thick I can't understand the words or if they get offended when you ask questions.

And of course the curse of all tech support is the new person that is just reading a script and won't hand you off to someone that knows what they are doing. The "script" seldom covers my issues if I need to call in.
 
I absolutly agree on written instructions - they should be clear and proof read AFTER translation by a native speaker of the final language.

For email and voice tech support where you can ask for clarification on what they are saying having to do so can be frustrating, but is ok.

The only times I really have an issue is when the accent is so thick I can't understand the words or if they get offended when you ask questions.


And of course the curse of all tech support is the new person that is just reading a script and won't hand you off to someone that knows what they are doing. The "script" seldom covers my issues if I need to call in.
This is one (of a few) reasons I like the chat online option vs a phone call. Their accent can be as bad as possible, but as long as they type it OK, I can understand it!
(Also nice not having to sit on hold with a phone in my ear for an hour, listen to elevator music, if there's an address or whatever they need from me they don't misspell what I tell them, and several other things)
 
This is one (of a few) reasons I like the chat online option vs a phone call. Their accent can be as bad as possible, but as long as they type it OK, I can understand it!
(Also nice not having to sit on hold with a phone in my ear for an hour, listen to elevator music, if there's an address or whatever they need from me they don't misspell what I tell them, and several other things)


The most frustrating thing is when you fill out their intake form or tell them your problem, then you get disconnected or handed off and the next person doesn't know anything abour your issues.

Snd I HATE IVRs that are more than 2 levels deep.
 
But when you overcurrent a mosfet it breaks down the semiconductor junction and becomes a short 99% of the time. That short will typically only last a few seconds the blow open.

there are bms with contactors if you like this more

the 200A jk inverter bms is rated for 350A 2 minutes peak and 550A short current this is enough to blow a 200A or 250A fuse so there are two parts one is the fuse protecting the wire and the bms protecting the battery.

a fuse is always needed for wire protection not for battery protection
i have mega fuses in my lynx power in, i can fit littelfuse L15S250 fuses if i want to. have to do a little modification.
i will do this if i upgrade to 4 batterys, now i have 2 not because the mega fuses ar bad but i do not trust the plastic of the lynx
 
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there are bms with contactors if you like this more

the 200A jk inverter bms is rated for 350A 2 minutes peak and 550A short current this is enough to blow a 200A or 250A fuse so there are two parts one is the fuse protecting the wire and the bms protecting the battery.

a fuse is always needed for wire protection not for battery protection
i have mega fuses in my lynx power in, i can fit class t fuses if i want to. have to do a little modification. i will do this if i upgrade to 4 batterys, now i have 2


I agree wth this.

What about the OP case where the current was probably 700amps at a guess? I assume it would blow a standard BMS. Which may mean it stays on and may mean it would cut current after a few seconds.

Now the BMS that do use contactors - Do they use NO contactors or NC? If NO then if they blow up the contactor should open if able. But what about a fault that surges current into the contactor control? Would that fry it so it stayed in the current state regardless of type? I don't know enough about that type BMS or contactors to answer either question?

Seems like the safest bet would be a shunt/contactor combo that is independant of the BMS - If overcurrent for long enough or if overcurrent is high enough it just trips? Would be pretty easy build with ardiuno or RPi if something doesn't already exist?

And in any case I would class T or equivalent fuse the line. The only downside of more elements is more resistance in a high current line.

What do you think of that sort of setup?
 
What do you think of that sort of setup?

there is always a risk use a contactor or mosfet i am using mosfet jk bms. havent read about that they fail.
the jk bms has relay contacts to drive some external load so there can be added a NO contactor this will reduce the risk if somebody want to install this.
or install a 2nd bms with a NO contactor.

you have choose the wire and fuse above the maximum load your battery/bms can handle

so in the jk case i would use a 250A fuse with a very flexible 70mm² H01N2-D welding wire, dont know the american gauge or cable type
if a 70V mega fuse is used it will blow at 200% current in 7 to 15 seconds so in this case at 500A

a german guy has tested this. watch it starts at 13min7seconds in the video (activate englisch subs)

maybe a class t is faster so it is a nice to have

he compares the victron mega fuses with the noname. and the noname fuse is better than the victron. the victron fuse does not blow fast its a very bad fuse and very expensive.


well if all fails, the fuse, the bms and the 2nd contactor then your battery build has to past a extreme test if all non flamable materials used in the build can stop the thermal runaway.
 
Earlier I stated there was a universal class T holder - drum roll, I was wrong - I know I know you are either thinking "WHAT!! never" or you are thinking "What, again??"

Here are both sizes of the "ignition protected version. There is indeed a pocket that is totally isolated from outside air around the fuse. The cutouts at the ends are for the lugs only, a piece of plastic goes tight up against the fuse itself to make a seal. Probably not airtight, but very close to it.

Interesting note - the only difference the base - the screws on the small one are 2mm closer together than on the large one.


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there is always a risk use a contactor or mosfet i am using mosfet jk bms. havent read about that they fail.
the jk bms has relay contacts to drive some external load so there can be added a NO contactor this will reduce the risk if somebody want to install this.
or install a 2nd bms with a NO contactor.

you have choose the wire and fuse above the maximum load your battery/bms can handle

so in the jk case i would use a 250A fuse with a very flexible 70mm² H01N2-D welding wire, dont know the american gauge or cable type
if a 70V mega fuse is used it will blow at 200% current in 7 to 15 seconds so in this case at 500A

a german guy has tested this. watch it starts at 13min7seconds in the video (activate englisch subs)

maybe a class t is faster so it is a nice to have

he compares the victron mega fuses with the noname. and the noname fuse is better than the victron. the victron fuse does not blow fast its a very bad fuse and very expensive.


well if all fails, the fuse, the bms and the 2nd contactor then your battery build has to past a extreme test if all non flamable materials used in the build can stop the thermal runaway.


This one is a longer version and to destruction


5500amps for the source .

The take away from this is some of the fuses don't completly clear the bridge material, but almost all go off with a bang and sparks when hit with very large current. And most loose their tops in the process.

Seems to be a reason to get the ignition protected class T holder.

When he was testing the victron holder top was not installed, I wish he had done a few with that so we could see if there sparks coming through the hole on the top of cover. With the size of the sparks I would bet enough comes out to spark a gas.


Particularly intersting at this point - 58v 125amp fuse that sustains and arc without being massive current. And it softens its own case in the process.



And I am depending on youtube to translate the captions which were auto-generated so he may be talking about a recipie for strudel.


One thing he does talk about I hadn't considered - When the fuses blow they deposit metal generated soot and particles inside the casing which could easily sustain an arc.


I really need an auto transformer to test the fuses at the right voltage and higher current. I have a step down transformer from an old UPS I can use like @Hedges suggested all by itself.
 
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I absolutly agree on written instructions - they should be clear and proof read AFTER translation by a native speaker of the final language.

I absolutely agree this is a key point for documentation to be effective.

Fairly early in my career, I maintained mainframe computers for a multinational company ..... One of the smaller mainframes was manufactured in Italy.
The entire manual was written by an Italian who had been taught English. Complex diagnostic procedures were almost incomprehensible.
While it's still possible there could be misunderstandings if a native English speaking person translated the Italian for the manual ... at least it would have been possible to follow the instructions. We were lucky that we had one technician who's was born in the US but who's parents were Italian ..... If there was a major issue with that system we had him first in the call sequence.
 
so he may be talking about a recipie for strudel.

:ROFLMAO:

i can understand what he says
have seen the subs, it is a "ok" translation

but yes if it is a short across 48V, the mega fuse explode and can ignite hydrogen leaked from a damaged cell.
i have ventilation with ups backup in my battery room.
 
Agreed, but a 600v fuse used on a line with 500vdc and 30amps shouldn't have a problem so long as the 30 amps is not exceeded.

But, the resistance of fuses does vary by the amp rating, which means heat output varies by amp rating.

From my testing with the class T and Chint fuses the higher the amp rating the lower the internal resistance.

From looking back earlier in this thread where I posted a picture of a bunch of fuses side by side, the larger the higher the voltage rating the larger the fuse. The Class T in the picture are rated 125vdc and 160vdc. The larger is physicaly bigger. The Chint have a way higher voltage rating and much larger. But their internal resistace is higher so more heat loss. But they sit in the holder in open air to disipate the heat.

See


Now, all that said - our friend @dianea had a fuse mounted to a DIN rail and looked like screwed to a sheetrock wall verse inside an enclosure and she was kind enough to post a picture of it as a warning - so I was asking for any details she could provide about the fuse itself. As in type/voltage/amps from which we can see why it did what it did.

I suspect from the picture there was a short somplace or more likely the fuse was being run near its amp limits and it heated up like the filament in an old light bulb. and burned the wall and melted whatever the casing it. That looks like a fuse holder that has a flip out door and you put a fuse inside it.


P.S. @dianea - if you have more pictures I would like to see one from farther way showing all the damage, looks like the wire on the right had a melted sheath.

Started a thread with information about the chint fuses with links and data sheets.
 
My best guess is I made this to fit under the dog house of a Kohler electric plant with more available current than I was comfortable with .
Its Phenolic so its old..

I don't think you should be using any fuses that don't look like this...

Probably a big old EL-8 controller and I wanted a local service recipritacal. ( thats poglish language training right there )
I used to do that to a lot of generating plants.
Notice the interrupt capacity..

Don't use Chinese junk.

You cant read that...
Its a common HRC fuse 15 amp.
very simple basic fast fuse with silica sand inside.
The silica fuses into glass in a bad fault prevents fire and all the bad stuff you see with those Chinese fuses in previous video.
Not as fast as a T or J fuse but its not going to cause a fire ever..
 

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see with those Chinese fuses in previous video
there was a expensive victron fuse too, they behave the same and they protect the wiring
you need an additional bms per paralel bank with mosfets or a contactor or both to protect the battery cells from dumping current of the other working paralel banks.

a fuse filled with sand is of course better than a cheap mega fuse

btw. i use chinese junk bms and chinese junk lfp cells with victron junk made in india ;)
 
My best guess is I made this to fit under the dog house of a Kohler electric plant with more available current than I was comfortable with .
Its Phenolic so its old..

I don't think you should be using any fuses that don't look like this...

Probably a big old EL-8 controller and I wanted a local service recipritacal. ( thats poglish language training right there )
I used to do that to a lot of generating plants.
Notice the interrupt capacity..

Don't use Chinese junk.

You cant read that...
Its a common HRC fuse 15 amp.
very simple basic fast fuse with silica sand inside.
The silica fuses into glass in a bad fault prevents fire and all the bad stuff you see with those Chinese fuses in previous video.
Not as fast as a T or J fuse but its not going to cause a fire ever..

That looks a lot like the vintage fuse on my 1965 drill press.
 
do we know OP's pack rough current drawn at that fateful wee hour ? and was there not a smoke alarm ? or the Nest supposedly served that purpose ?
 
do we know OP's pack rough current drawn at that fateful wee hour ? and was there not a smoke alarm ? or the Nest supposedly served that purpose ?
Apparently there is a "steam" setting on the Nests to avoid false triggers from showers etc, and therefore they didn't trigger on the smouldering fire.
 
Apparently there is a "steam" setting on the Nests to avoid false triggers from showers etc, and therefore they didn't trigger on the smouldering fire.
so a regular non-smart fire/smoke alarm would be better ?
 
do we know OP's pack rough current drawn at that fateful wee hour ? and was there not a smoke alarm ? or the Nest supposedly served that purpose ?

He posted a Victron graph somewhere about page 20 that showed thing fine, the a large current spike and back to normal, then 20 minutes later it went offline.


 
He posted a Victron graph somewhere about page 20 that showed thing fine, the a large current spike and back to normal, then 20 minutes later it went offline.


What would it take to drop a 98kWh battery from 53.20 to 52.70? Potentially lower than that but VRM resolution may not have caught it. Just the surface charge coming off?

Screenshot_20240518_203042_Chrome.jpg
 
What would it take to drop a 98kWh battery from 53.20 to 52.70? Potentially lower than that but VRM resolution may not have caught it. Just the surface charge coming off?

View attachment 216237

This is from the victron perspective. The batrium monitoring went with the house.

This was a time period from just before 4am until right after, maybe 30 minutes.

My assumption was a cell shorted and the others started dumping into that string. The cell vented and fuse blew and the fire started.

We will never know the truth.
 
My assumption was a cell shorted and the others started dumping into that string. The cell vented and fuse blew and the fire started.
that could be possible the cell short happen slowly so the dumping current rise slowly the fuse had no chance to protect the battery.
so at a critical point some cells vented because of overcharge and maybe vented flammable gases, then the fuse blew and ignited the flammable mix of oxygen and hydrogen. of course then the mega fuse can arc when hydrogen or else flammable is around.

a class t fuse could help somehow but then the ignition could come from another source. for example from a burning batrium module.

the chance is high that a bms ber paralel battery bank could have stopped this chain reaction, so just a couple cells were damaged.
instead the whole system and house is gone...

we can all learn from this.
 
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Around the 2:40 mark he talks about JK BMS being a failure… and how they are over charging because reset…after few days being off.


Hmmmmm… What now?
 
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