House burned down

[DPC]

@robbob2112 I can not disagree, and it is certainly worth extended research in my book.
Just glancing at the link, that extinguisher is not co2 based anyway. It uses Clean agent chemical: FK-5-1-12 Which is a cooling agent.
Better some clean up than total loss though.
I now have a new topic of research!

I used to hide Co2 fire extinguishers in the garages.
In the event of an electrical fire it was less mess to clean, but also if you have a run away diesel engine the best way to snuff it out is let it draw the Co2 into the engine and starve it of oxygen.
Both a fast way to stop a potential grenading engine fire and limit the damage and clean up after the fire.

 

[robbob2112]

It ain't pretty at all...right now I just have one going back to a power in

Final solution I'll prob have one for each battery velcroed to to the side of them with industrial Velcro, prior to the power in.View attachment 212299

Seems like there is a better way to mount them. Especially since the adhesive on the back of your industrial velcro will probably turn loose if it gets to cold or hot.

Maybe mount bus bars firmly and bolt one end to them and the other to a cable hanging from it. Or a second stubby bus bar. Or possibly a surface mount breaker rather than trying to fudge something together. These are things I need to think about.

This incident along with others in this section make me think when I have the new house built there will be a 4'x8' cinder block bunker with concrete board and steel ceiling 6~10ft from the house. All the batteries and electrical housed in that and only the AC lines to a main house panel going into the dwelling. I might consider doing this below grade for some part depending on frost line and water table.

Would give a good place to mount everything and keep the temperature stable year round. And since we are planning a heat pump would also give a place to bring those lines together into a single plenum and on to the utility room in the house.

Have to lookup rules on distance from sump pump to electrical equipment and on installing electrical below grade. I assume there is a reason they don't put transformers in pits besides heat.

 

[SparkyJJO]

What I cannot figure out is why are there seemingly no good options for panel mount breakers out there?

 

[42OhmsPA]

What I cannot figure out is why are there seemingly no good options for panel mount breakers out there?

I thought Schneider and Midnite had that covered, as well as DIN rail.

 

[robbob2112]

I thought Schneider and Midnite had that covered, as well as DIN rail.

I've seen a lot of the midnight solar breakers mounted by hanging them off a bus bar at one end. Seems like a sloppy way to do things.


@Hedges - you play with breakers a lot, any idea how these are supposed to be mounted?

 

[42OhmsPA]

I've seen a lot of the midnight solar breakers mounted by hanging them off a bus bar at one end. Seems like a sloppy way to do things.


@Hedges - you play with breakers a lot, any idea how these are supposed to be mounted?

They have a lot of different options for breakers boxes and E panels for various equipment that I'm sure could be made to work.
100 amp breaker example.

I'm frugal and 'sloppy' so I hung them from a bus bar in a repurposed schneider box.

 

[Brucey]

They have a lot of different options for breakers boxes and E panels for various equipment that I'm sure could be made to work.
100 amp breaker example.

I'm frugal and 'sloppy' so I hung them from a bus bar in a repurposed schneider box.

The problem with that one is it's only recommended for max of 4AWG.

Midnite do make specific DC disconnect enclosures but they aren't cheap and not available naked without included breaker that I can find.

https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p

 

[Brett V]

It ain't pretty at all...right now I just have one going back to a power in

Final solution I'll prob have one for each battery velcroed to to the side of them with industrial Velcro, prior to the power in.View attachment 212299

Is there anything between that big Midnight breaker and the batteries? If not, it's really not doing anything.

 

[hwy17]

What I cannot figure out is why are there seemingly no good options for panel mount breakers out there?

DC and breakers just don't mix imo. DC arcs are hard to extinguish and it's not a job to be done in ambient air. Class T's do it with sand, and contactors do it in nitrogen. So I built my system entirely with fuses and contactors, no breakers. Well apart from the one that came in my Lifepower4. I should really put a Class T on that now that I think about it.

 

[robbob2112]

They have a lot of different options for breakers boxes and E panels for various equipment that I'm sure could be made to work.
100 amp breaker example.

I'm frugal and 'sloppy' so I hung them from a bus bar in a repurposed schneider box.

I see from poking around on the website - din rail is what is intended... When I get round to it I'll splurge and get the rails.


And now for a word from our sponser - or afternoon humor

Sloppy and frugal reminds me of my mother's second husband. They put a cheap 3ft tall 10ft round above ground pool on the back porch. He got it free from someplace. The heater/filter unit for it would have cost a hundred bucks.

So they had a few methods for heating it.

First was a garden hose thrown into the hot tub and attached to a circulation pump, just a closed loop heat transfer system. And it worked for a few months until the heater on the hot tub burned up from over use.

Next he took the hose and attached it to a coil of copper tubing and set that down into a metal 30 gallon trashcan. When the pool got a little chilly he would just build a fire in the trashcan and let the pump circulate water still in a closed loop. Problem with this is the hot water didn't loose enough heat on the loops and the little pump wasn't built for high temps and it died after a month.

So, what is a man to do? Well, he took the electric heating element out of an old junk waterheater that he intended to cut in half to make a smoker out of. Cut the ends off an extension cord. Wrap the naked wires around the back end of the element. Then he drilled a hole in a 2x4 an pushed the element through. Now toss that in the water face down and it did a fair job of heating the top 18 inches of the water. The board kept the element from sinking and the water kept the board from catching fire. Just have to remember to unplug before using the pool.

And they used it like that for 6 months until winter came along and the pool split its side because the little heater couldn't keep up.

 

[Brucey]

Is there anything between that big Midnight breaker and the batteries? If not, it's really not doing anything.

There's a power in. Still a work in progress. Eventually all batteries will have one of those close to the terminals, prior to the power in. And then a Victron rotary switch between the power in and the distributor in place the mnedc250.

 

[Brucey]

I see from poking around on the website - din rail is what is intended... When I get round to it I'll splurge and get the rails.

The big ones (175A and 250A are front panel mount), no way to din mount them due to their connection posts.

 

[Hedges]

It ain't pretty at all...right now I just have one going back to a power in

Final solution I'll prob have one for each battery velcroed to to the side of them with industrial Velcro, prior to the power in.View attachment 212299

I'd like to see a dielectric object ("insulating busbar") between breaker lug and shunt. Or a least a longer negative jumper.
Right now they can pivot to touch. Are those unprotected, straight from battery?

What I cannot figure out is why are there seemingly no good options for panel mount breakers out there?

How about a panel?

Ideally, square knock-out in metal, with holes for the screws.
Maybe just two rectangular pieces, one for top and one for bottom. After mounting, cover with two more rectangles to keep fingers out.

Typical breaker panel bezels have twist-out pieces leaving a square hole, probably not the right dimensions.

I haven't used any bezel mount yet, only plug-on or DIN rail.

 

[Brucey]

I'd like to see a dielectric object ("insulating busbar") between breaker lug and shunt. Or a least a longer negative jumper.
Right now they can pivot to touch. Are those unprotected, straight from battery?



How about a panel?

Ideally, square knock-out in metal, with holes for the screws.
Maybe just two rectangular pieces, one for top and one for bottom. After mounting, cover with two more rectangles to keep fingers out.

Typical breaker panel bezels have twist-out pieces leaving a square hole, probably not the right dimensions.

I haven't used any bezel mount yet, only plug-on or DIN rail.

Yes just a work in progress, eventually all the exposed terminals etc will be covered. It's just a distortion from the wide angle lens, the body of the smartshunt would prevent the terminals from shorting out.

 

[robbob2112]

Yes just a work in progress, eventually all the exposed terminals etc will be covered. It's just a distortion from the wide angle lens, the body of the smartshunt would prevent the terminals from shorting out.

View attachment 212321View attachment 212322

Is the wall you have the inverter mounted on flame proof?

 

[Brucey]

Is the wall you have the inverter mounted on flame proof?

I have to put some cement board there it's just drywall right now. It's an rs450/100 SCC.

 

[wattmatters]

DC and breakers just don't mix imo.

You're allowed to have a fuse and a breaker. Breakers are very handy for taking a battery offline if required.

 

[hwy17]

You're allowed to have a fuse and a breaker. Breakers are very handy for taking a battery offline if required.

In that case I would say you want a disconnect.

 

[Brucey]

In that case I would say you want a disconnect.

The breaker can fulfill the over current and disconnect functions. Class t and switch per battery being the alternative.

Or I guess breakers in the batteries if off the shelf rack mount etc.

 

[hwy17]

The breaker can fulfill the over current and disconnect functions.

I'm of the opinion, and I'm in the minority, that breakers are so bad at the over current part that it's actually more dangerous to have them in the mix. I'll take a disconnect and a fuse. I don't want the disconnect trying to do the fuse's job.

 

[Brucey]

I'm of the opinion, and I'm in the minority, that breakers are so bad at the over current part that it's actually more dangerous to have them in the mix. I'll take a disconnect and a fuse. I don't want the disconnect trying to do the fuse's job.

I would agree that unless you pony up for a fully rated breaker like a midnite mnedc you are better off with nothing versus some of the junk that passes as DC breakers.

 

[wattmatters]

In that case I would say you want a disconnect.

I see nothing wrong with having two levels of overcurrent protection, one for low level events to provide basic overcurrent protection as well as one which can handle a much more severe fault (e.g. a battery short).

I'm of the opinion, and I'm in the minority, that breakers are so bad at the over current part

Surely that depends on the quality of the breaker?

Aside from fuses I use one of these (250 A):

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0276/3289/3994/files/BDM_Series_Battery_DC_Breaker.pdf?v=1597624711

 

[SparkyJJO]

Well since I couldn't find a suitable enclosure for the larger panelvmount midnite or Outback breakers I bought some MCCBs. They're chunky enough I hope they do their job.
I also have class T fuses to go on each battery. Yup. Doubling up everything.

 

[hwy17]

I see nothing wrong with having two levels of overcurrent protection, one for low level events to provide basic overcurrent protection as well as one which can handle a much more severe fault (e.g. a battery short).

Just speaking for myself here but I don't have a concept of a low level event for DC overcurrents in my system. I am happy to pay the $40 to have the class T do the job.

 

[Blakes]

What specific brand of class t fuse are you guys recommending to go between each battery?