How do DIY folks deal with NEC 690.4 (C) - Qualified Persons Only

[Texican]

Mattb and HammaMan - what state do you live in - understand if you don't want to say - I'm asking because I'm thinking this is the last straw for me to move out of NY.

Permit ?? whats a permit ??
Hunt county in NE TX. no permits, no inspections as long as you are not in the city limits
built our own house from scratch. no paperwork needed including all electrical & plumbing
the septic did require an inspection
in addition to the off grid system I have 2 grid ties, those required an interconnection agreement with poco but no inspection

 

[TheMadNucleus]

HJammaMan - 100% correct. Very stupid. And actually I've obtained the statutes on this and the whole county is misinterpreting them. They basically say that anyone working on your house must be licensed in their field. The spirit of the phraseology is: if you hire someone, they need to be licensed, not that you as a homeowner need to be licensed. I contacted a lawyer in the county and he agreed - it is a misinterpretation but battling this is "battling town hall".

When I discussed this with the town, the first question was: "Do you have a contractor's license or an electrician's license" - naturally the answer was no.

As you said - homeowners often just do the work here and hope no one finds out and if they do, plead ignorance and see if they can get an inspection at that time. Years ago, I added 1300 sq ft to a prior house and I was able to get permits, do all the work, get all the rough and final inspections and finally a C.O. But things have changed.

Really starting to hate NY - but as I understand it - I'm not alone - we are a net exported of families and people

 

[HammaMan]

HJammaMan - 100% correct. Very stupid. And actually I've obtained the statutes on this and the whole county is misinterpreting them. They basically say that anyone working on your house must be licensed in their field. The spirit of the phraseology is: if you hire someone, they need to be licensed, not that you as a homeowner need to be licensed. I contacted a lawyer in the county and he agreed - it is a misinterpretation but battling this is "battling town hall".

When I discussed this with the town, the first question was: "Do you have a contractor's license or an electrician's license" - naturally the answer was no.

As you said - homeowners often just do the work here and hope no one finds out and if they do, plead ignorance and see if they can get an inspection at that time. Years ago, I added 1300 sq ft to a prior house and I was able to get permits, do all the work, get all the rough and final inspections and finally a C.O. But things have changed.

Really starting to hate NY - but as I understand it - I'm not alone - we are a net exported of families and people

The craziness of things is just beginning. Companies now offer AI analysis of satellite data that will then compare homes and their upgrades against permit DBs. France just used this to find another $10mil in taxes. https://arstechnica.com/information...als-hidden-swimming-pools-with-ai-taxes-them/ -- and that's trivial for the stuff being used to conduct war and domestic surveillance.

For context, the unquestionable leader in AI applications is the US -- that war that's going on over in eastern europe is being dictated by Palantir's Gotham system. It's a bit of a tangent, but let's just say it's smart enough to see someone purchasing items and understand what they're doing with them based on both public and private data about any given individual (in all domains including public and private sat providers). The US army just paid them to incorporate its own neural network into -- it scrapes data from everything in the public and govt domains (and runs that against the latest AI advancements in all of silicon valley). The CEO doesn't mince words, he said "It's got godlike capabilities" and that's not drummed up hyperbole -- the new advanced system is called titan.

It's only a matter of time before states and municipalities adopt their 'commercial' applications to use everything from sats, to street view, to cameras on patrol cars, to social media images to find ways to tax homeowners for every penny they can milk out of people. The day after adoption, it will be mailing tax bills. /tangent

 

[OzSolar]

I called my permit and codes office in PA, and the woman said that I could file the permit without a contractor or electrician. I hope she is correct. We will see. Am about to pay greenlancer.com to draw everything up.

PM if you need any help with them. You probably only need the $90 service. We use them often.

 

[TheMadNucleus]

HammaMan - another spot-on post 100% right - this is one of the reasons I don't have a Facebook account and never did - I saw this coming years ago - big time AI - it analyzes everything you post automatically and then builds a Psychological Profile about you over time - amongst other things all of which is easily mined by the super-corps. Very Scary where we are regarding individual freedoms. As individuals we just kept giving it away every time we are faced with 10 pages of fine text with a blue "I agree" button at the bottom.

 

[Mattb4]

Mattb and HammaMan - what state do you live in - understand if you don't want to say - I'm asking because I'm thinking this is the last straw for me to move out of NY.

All the States I have lived in from Washington, Idaho, Montana, and now Arkansas allowed home owners to do their own work. Washington (State of birth and residence for 30 years) was an overbearing permit driven State that you had more hoops to jump through and more annoying regulations than the rest. Still built a home there doing all my own work back in the early 90's.

In rural Carroll Co, AR., where I now reside, there is no building permits and the only State requirements is 3 acres or more to avoid a septic permit. The Cities do have building departments if you are crazy enough to like city living. One particular city is considered a "Historic" (tourist trap) city and its requirements are some what absurd.

 

[Hedges]

It's only a matter of time before states and municipalities adopt their 'commercial' applications to use everything from sats, to street view, to cameras on patrol cars, to social media images to find ways to tax homeowners for every penny they can milk out of people. The day after adoption, it will be mailing tax bills. /tangent

Buy a property with an old barn.
Shop for used materials from individuals, paying cash, during trips in your RV.
Pull inside the barn before unloading.
Build whatever you want inside.
But first line the interior with Tempest qualified shielding, so no one can see inside at any wavelength (that has much resolution.)

There is an old cannery building in my area. A company built their factory inside, and manufactures parts for nuclear missile launchers, also gears for ship transmissions.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Out of sight, out of (their) mind.


In San Jose, homeowners can pull their own permits for about anything except maybe wells and fire sprinklers. They are cautioned not to do so for unlicensed "contractors" trying to skirt the rules. I am "qualified" by any standard to do the work (but not to sign plans if needed) so that part is easy for me. Drawing plans to their new requirements is a pain; I don't have suitable CAD. Used to be able to draw an 8 1/2 x 11 block diagram but they want all sorts of lot and house details now.

Because PV doesn't add to property tax basis, no money in it for government to spot solar panels in satellite photos. Building additions is what they will look for.

 

[Mattb4]

... They are cautioned not to do so for unlicensed "contractors" trying to skirt the rules. ...

Washington State was rather nasty when it comes to enforcing that no one but the home owner does the work. My brother's Father in Law was doing a home upgrade. He got some help from a friend and neighbor on the drywall. The State found out and the fine was $500 for doing unlicensed work.

 

[Hedges]

We are allowed to have our "employees" do the work.
Better have the paperwork (and insurance) to support it. I did pay worker's compensation premiums on what I paid for labor.

$500 should be a good savings off paying a contractor. Close to what just contractor's license an bond costs, in fact.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

For my solar there have been 3 parts.
1) Roof panels - required roof/engineering-strength permit. Used IronRidge rails and they provides all the specs. Very straigh-forward.
2) Initial, off-grid, electrical install. City required an Electrician of record. I found one willing to work by-the-hour, did all the design but let me wire a lot of i tup.
-------
3) Did a ground array in the back yard, no permits needed for physical structure, but followed DIY shed rules (property line setback etc).

Then, in general, we have a 'homeowner may expand circuits' rule and used this to expand the system in conjunction with info from original electrician willing to explain codes + youtubes on things like 'only the main panel has ground/neutral bonding'.

The real issue with permits etc (in my thinking) is not so much that the city is driving around looking... but rather, you have to think about major events such as Fire, future installs (like new furnace), and Selling.
Fire - I used all ETL/UL equipment + all is to code (wire/conduit etc) to address Fire. So my insurance has a decent chance to pay off.
Future Installs - New Heat-Pump installed and inspector simply focused on / certified the Heat-Pump permit/install only.
Selling - We don't plan to move so Selling is low risk but still, there could be some loss of $ if something came up during he sales process / buyer inspections and had to negotiate or spend $ ripping things out. OK for me but some can't stand loosing 5K on a sale due to this kind of thing so it's something to think about.

 

[HammaMan]

HammaMan - another spot-on post 100% right - this is one of the reasons I don't have a Facebook account and never did - I saw this coming years ago - big time AI - it analyzes everything you post automatically and then builds a Psychological Profile about you over time - amongst other things all of which is easily mined by the super-corps. Very Scary where we are regarding individual freedoms. As individuals we just kept giving it away every time we are faced with 10 pages of fine text with a blue "I agree" button at the bottom.

With the political nonsense of the late 20teens, I was making memes that others were getting account locks for sharing (FB). If accounts were numbered sequentially, mine would be right around the 10k mark (as in one of the first 10k on the platform). If I flagged a spam account, it was taken down immediately. I had no connection to FB, yet my account was somehow protected / elevated. I found this quite odd and immediately stopped using the platform. It later came to light that FB was essentially running a long-running program on several accounts that basically amounted to a psy-op / monitoring program and the accounts were under no threat of throttling / banning as they'd likely lose their test subjects (1-2 mil accounts ended up in this program). There were other oddities w/ random fb employees friending me and trying to talk to me. I found a couple of their own bot accounts (they wouldn't take those down, but I get any other account struck in less than 20m) --- it was entertaining at first, now I block all of their known entity domains at my firewalls.

-- this post ended up like 5 paragraphs ranting about what's going on with AI and data collection, but I nuked it. I've yet to find anyone actually collect the dots / understand what's going, particularly around Palantir. Once the market nonsense settles out, I'll be picking up a few thousand shares as once their full capabilities are understood, everyone will want a piece.

 

[Ampster]

I am probably not qualified to talk about the government because I actually worked for a Congressman at the turn of the Century.
However I consider myself qualified to comply with NEC 690C since I have done three of my solar installs and three other inverter installs since the turn of the Century.

 

[Phearl3ss]

I know this is a while back but I have plans in now as a homeowner and the city wanted me to prove I was a "qualified person." I did some research and disputed this requirement as a precondition of obtaining a permit for solar. I explained that in California Section 7026. “Contractor,” for the purposes of this chapter, is synonymous with “builder” and, within the meaning of this chapter, a contractor is any person who undertakes to .... or does himself or herself or by or through others, construct, alter, repair, add to, subtract from, improve, ... any building, or other structure, project, development or improvement, or to do any part thereof........ “Contractor” includes subcontractor and specialty contractor. So anyone who does improvements is a contractor or builder. So anyone doing work is a contractor. An owner is anyone who holds any interest in the property equitable or legal and includes their agents and employees. A owner is exempt from having a license if the owner does the work or hires individuals to work for wages, or hires a sub that is licensed. I explained that a "qualified person" deals with OSHA safety in the workplace. Things a contractor must do to keep an employee safe. The city does not require a licensed contractor to prove their employees are all qualified person if installing solar. Nor that the contractor has weekly safety meetings for employees, identification of hazards. Proper clothing. A contactor can apparently avoid a OSHA violation if they have their new solar install employee take an online three hour class for 30.00, that person is now qualified. In California BPC Sec 7032 states the cities and counties can review plans, issue permits, require compliance with other codes and regulations, and inspect quality of work, the last part states, Nothing contained in this section shall be construed as authorizing a city or county to enact regulations relating to the qualifications necessary to engage in the business of contracting. Since contractor includes anyone improving property including a homeowner exempt for license requirements, the city is not authorized to enact a regulation that requires a homeowner to prove a qualified person is doing the work. The city still has not issued the permit but dropped the requirement I prove I or who I have do the work is qualified. Hope this helps.

 

[Shimmy]

I know this is a while back but I have plans in now as a homeowner and the city wanted me to prove I was a "qualified person." I did some research and disputed this requirement as a precondition of obtaining a permit for solar. I explained that in California Section 7026. “Contractor,” for the purposes of this chapter, is synonymous with “builder” and, within the meaning of this chapter, a contractor is any person who undertakes to .... or does himself or herself or by or through others, construct, alter, repair, add to, subtract from, improve, ... any building, or other structure, project, development or improvement, or to do any part thereof........ “Contractor” includes subcontractor and specialty contractor. So anyone who does improvements is a contractor or builder. So anyone doing work is a contractor. An owner is anyone who holds any interest in the property equitable or legal and includes their agents and employees. A owner is exempt from having a license if the owner does the work or hires individuals to work for wages, or hires a sub that is licensed. I explained that a "qualified person" deals with OSHA safety in the workplace. Things a contractor must do to keep an employee safe. The city does not require a licensed contractor to prove their employees are all qualified person if installing solar. Nor that the contractor has weekly safety meetings for employees, identification of hazards. Proper clothing. A contactor can apparently avoid a OSHA violation if they have their new solar install employee take an online three hour class for 30.00, that person is now qualified. In California BPC Sec 7032 states the cities and counties can review plans, issue permits, require compliance with other codes and regulations, and inspect quality of work, the last part states, Nothing contained in this section shall be construed as authorizing a city or county to enact regulations relating to the qualifications necessary to engage in the business of contracting. Since contractor includes anyone improving property including a homeowner exempt for license requirements, the city is not authorized to enact a regulation that requires a homeowner to prove a qualified person is doing the work. The city still has not issued the permit but dropped the requirement I prove I or who I have do the work is qualified. Hope this helps.

Good luck. FWIW though NFPA and OSHA have different definitions of "qualified person."

Nothing prevents you from doing work that is not (typically) electrical or plumbing; you as homeowner in your private residence can do anything except those two trades, including managing as a general contractor.

Specific to electrical for solar the best compromise if you cannot prove suitable expertise is to hire an electrician to make final terminations and energize the system.

 

[Supervstech]

In NC, a homeowner is allowed to pull most permits, as long as they are not renting the residence out.
THEY must have the property as their primary residence at the time of the work being performed, and they must pass a qualified contract test…
They also often have to post a bond for posting the permit… it was 2K last time I checked… likely more at this point, but the bond is refundable after inspections have all finaled.

 

[Madcodger]

I once lived in a place that required a permit for changing out a light switch or outlet. Nothing but a money grab by a town that did almost nothing to earn any of its many fees. Today, I live in a tiny town in a different state, and we are allowed to build almost anything with no permits other than those for plumbing, except when we build in a shoreland zone. Much better. Basically, I'm tired of government trying to protect me from me, or charging for "inspections" that are cursory glances at best. I've owned about a dozen homes in various locations over my six decades. In only one of those did the town or county perform anything more than a cursory inspection for the fees charged. Overall, I really like working with that office, as they were very helpful about how to complete a project while staying within code, actually did a reasonable inspection of work, and were very DIY friendly. Otherwise, much of this "permitting" is nothing more than a nuisance tax to fund government bureaucracy, and a way to make people feel like there's competent oversight even when little exists.

 

[Supervstech]

I once lived in a place that required a permit for changing out a light switch or outlet. Nothing but a money grab by a town that did almost nothing to earn any of its many fees. Today, I live in a tiny town in a different state, and we are allowed to build almost anything with no permits other than those for plumbing, except when we build in a shoreland zone. Much better. Basically, I'm tired of government trying to protect me from me, or charging for "inspections" that are cursory glances at best. I've owned about a dozen homes in various locations over my six decades. In only one of those did the town or county perform anything more than a cursory inspection for the fees charged. Overall, I really like working with that office, as they were very helpful about how to complete a project while staying within code, actually did a reasonable inspection of work, and were very DIY friendly. Otherwise, much of this "permitting" is nothing more than a nuisance tax to fund government bureaucracy, and a way to make people feel like there's competent oversight even when little exists.

To be clear...
If asked, all electrical work requires a permit in most places...
But, unless the power company needs to be involved, or more than a single circuit is being installed... permits are optional... up to the homeowner...

 

[Madcodger]

To be clear...
If asked, all electrical work requires a permit in most places...
But, unless the power company needs to be involved, or more than a single circuit is being installed... permits are optional... up to the homeowner...

..."in most places..." Nice to be able to find places outside of "most" places.

 

[Hedges]

California/San Jose, homeowner can do virtually any work including electrical and plumbing. One thing not allowed is drilling a well. But driving dewatering points into a hillside is allowed, as is developing a spring.

Replacing an electrical outlet does not require a permit. Replacing up to 25% of roof does not either. Nor installing flooring nor cabinets.
These things would vary by city, as do building codes (some require conduit rather than romex, for instance. Probably related to critters.)

San Jose has a very long Alacarte menu of permits and prices.

No tests or bonds for homeowner.
Contractors require a license (which requires experience) and written test, unless qualifying based on license from another state. And a bond, which I suppose could be cash and refundable, but bond companies do that for an annual fee.


Pherl3ss profile: "Background Lic Gen Contractor", "Location 95350" = Modesto, CA.

 

[JRH]

I'm curious as it seems contrary to all the videos and DIY information on the net about Solar Systems. The NEC states in 690.4 (C)

(C) Qualified Personnel. The installation of equipment and all associated wiring and interconnections shall be performed only by qualified persons.

This is the section on Photovoltaic Systems so "equipment" in this section refers to Solar system equipment.

How can a DIY person align with this rule from the NEC?

Any Thoughts?

Do your homework, do a good safe job and be quiet…..
if your unable to do the above , hire someone with a liscense…