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How to determine the wire size for my DIY solar setup

flinx777

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Sep 14, 2022
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I just read Will's explanation of the Classic 400 Watt Solar Package. The one thing that I'm not clear on in his explanation regarding the wire size connecting the battery/fuse/inverter. In this part of his video, he explains he uses 4 AWG and 6 AWG wiring to tie everything together:


Additionally, when I study his chart, it shows the fuse from the battery can be a range of 100 to 250 amp. By his calculations, I divide 2000 (the size of my inverter) by 12 to get the amperage, which comes to 167. I would then multiply 167 x 1.25, which comes to 208.75 So based on this, I would need a roughly 225 amp fuse.

But, when I study this web page which goes into detail explaining recommended wire size based on Amperage:


And I study their chart:


It suggests for 200 amps, I should be running a 2|0 AWG wire, which is huge. Will is running a 4 AWG wire (again, see here), which according to the chart, is rated for 100A.

I guess what I'm trying to understand is what size wire should I be running to build a setup like his setup, which he details here? I'm currently building an identical setup as his chart but just trying to get my head wrapped around the correct size of wiring and fuse.
 
For 2000 watt 12v inverter 2/0 wire is about minimum. Inverter install instructions will also give some guidance.
OP: The smaller wires from battery to inverter are ‘sufficient’ by some calculations and charts.
However, I habitually oversize everything between inverter and battery or battery to DC fuse box.

While the bluesea chart is technically correct for its parameters, I trust and have used that chart probably back almost thirty years. In one manner of looking at it those ABYC amp numbers are ‘oversized’ but I think they are perfect. Using the ABYC chart, no wiring ever gets hot and performance is great.
FWIW I wired my original 1200W psw inverter with 2/0 and it was handy when I wanted to connect a 2000W inverter as it still has headroom.
Inverter install instructions will also give some guidance
But instructions are optimistic sometimes.
My 2000W inverter came with 2’ 4ga cables- I did not use them nor will I.
My 3HP jeep winch came with something ridiculous like 2ga aluminum which is crazy imho.
The ABYC chart is safe and usable.
 
I just pulled out the cables that Renogy sent with this 2000W inverter. They're 2, 2 gauge cables that are connected with a 200 amp connector. So apparently, instead of 1, 2 gauge cable (which would only handle 100 amps), they're tying 2, 2 gauge cables together. This makes more sense now.

Here's a picture of the cords they sent me:


It's starting to make sense now.

Edit: corrected for 2, instead of 4.
 
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What you need to know is the wire has to be large enough that it won't heat beyond the wire insulation's ability to not break down. All wire has a rated max temperature.
Usually 65,75,90 degrees. It is de-rated by its allowable insulation property. The wire will heat up as current passes through it. The heat is calculated by the power that is dissipated in the wire. You have to know the resistance of the wire and the current flowing to calculate the power. The idea is to reduce this to a minimum value by making the wire resistance as low as possible. P = I X I X R where I is the amps flowing and R is the wire resistance. They call this an "I squared R loss". You have to look up the wire resistance in a wire table. The ohms per foot. The other thing that is important is the voltage drop from one end of the wire to the other, this includes wires on both sides of the load.
The voltage drop is E = I X R where E is Voltage drop = Current amps X Resistance. Keeping this to a minimum is the goal. because it's wasted power and can cause a fire if not done properly.

Notice he uses 4 AWG for the PV charge control and 2 AWG for the inverter, this is because the current from the PV charge control is lower amps than the amps required to run the inverter. For a learning experience after you have this built you could measure the wire lengths and calculate the wire segment resistance. Use your volt meter and Clamp-on current meter to measure the current and predict the voltage drop across each wire length. Use the Volt meter to verify the voltage drop for each length of wire. Then you will realize what the power losses in a system like this are, due to the " I Squared R Losses", and get an understanding, of why wire gauge is so important in a project like this. High Voltage drops and power loss on each segment of the wire can be a huge problem if the wire length is too long, Longer wire has higher resistance, larger losses, and Higher heating along the wire segment. Keeping in mind that the longer the length the more capacity the wire has to dissipate that heat. So this is a balance between the cost for larger wire and safety.

Thanks to pollenface

 
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I'm confused about wire size as well and constantly second guessing myself. Is wire size based on the battery or the inverter attached to the battery? I will build a 24v system and I have good lithium ion batteries that a friend gave to me which came in this form 60Ah battery paralleled to 120Ah so I'll 7S these into 24v so to 24v/120Ah. That could output 24*120=2880w but I'm abroad where 230v is used and inverter options aren't great so I'm going to use a 24v/1000w inverter.

Inverter draw: Is the maximum draw from a 24v/1000w inverter around 40A?

Wire size: If the inverter is only going to draw 40A, why would I need wire any larger than 10 gauge?

Fuse/CB size: Would a 50A fuse or CB on the battery's positive terminal be correct since the inverter can only draw 40A?

BMS size: Is the size of the BMS based on the battery's capacity (120Ah) or is the size based on the inverter's draw 40A? What size BMS should I use?

FYI:
I will never attached the battery to anything other than the 24v/1000w inverter.
I will use a 24v/30A PWM SCC to charge.
 
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Bumping this up. I'm not sure how patient I should be for a reply. I just don't want to create yet another wire size post. Thanks.
 
Yes the 24/1000 inverter will be about 40 amps max. Unless surge performance is utilized.

#10 is barely adequate at 40 amps and will get warm and have significant voltage drop. I would be closer to #6 unless the length is significant.

Yes a 50 amp fuse is correct with a 40 amp max draw. Again a 50 amp fuse says #6 wire.

BMS will be based on max amp draw so again 50 amp minimum. I would be closer to 80 or 100 as the cost may not be much extra.
 
Bumping this up. I'm not sure how patient I should be for a reply. I just don't want to create yet another wire size post. Thanks.
I will tell you this There are two things that you need to consider.

1) Can the wire carry the ampacity of the battery. There are many tables and wire size calculators available with a google search.
2) What is the voltage drop. All conductors have a resistance usually measured in ohms per 1000 ft. How long is your cable? If you know the length (ie the resistance), the voltage and the max amperage, you can calculate the voltage drop with ohnm's law: E=IR. or you could google for a voltage drop calculator. What is the maximum allowable voltage drop for your application?

I'm sorry. I'm just not in the mood to give you an answer. But I have empowered you to figure it out on your own. If you post what you believe the correct wire size is and how you determined that,, I will be happy to comment on your calculations
 
Yes the 24/1000 inverter will be about 40 amps max. Unless surge performance is utilized.

#10 is barely adequate at 40 amps and will get warm and have significant voltage drop. I would be closer to #6 unless the length is significant.

Yes a 50 amp fuse is correct with a 40 amp max draw. Again a 50 amp fuse says #6 wire.

BMS will be based on max amp draw so again 50 amp minimum. I would be closer to 80 or 100 as the cost may not be much extra.
#10 would never be adequate for 40 amps.

OCPD and wire size are not necessarily related. For example you might use #10 for a 15 amp circuit due to voltage drop and use a 20 Amp breaker.
 
#10 would never be adequate for 40 amps.

OCPD and wire size are not necessarily related. For example you might use #10 for a 15 amp circuit due to voltage drop and use a 20 Amp breaker.
Depends on the chart. 105C insulation in free air says 50 to 60 amps for #10. (not that I recommend it)

The OCPD protects the wire and dictates the wire should have the ability to carry the fuse rating. (try not to read too deep in this example or invent special cases that do not apply to the OP as it just makes confusion)

Are you saying my 50 amp fuse on #6 wire is unsafe?

Or how about just make an actual recommendation for wire and fuse??? OP wants a safe and easy solution.
 
Depends on the chart. 105C insulation in free air says 50 to 60 amps for #10. (not that I recommend it)
The wire would no longer be in "Free air" once it entered into then enclosure which it terminates in. Plus there would be far too much voltage drop.
Are you saying my 50 amp fuse on #6 wire is unsafe?
Not at all. I'm saying that wire size does not dictate the size of the Overcurrent Protection Device.
Or how about just make an actual recommendation for wire and fuse??? OP wants a safe and easy solution.
#6 AWG CU up to 20 feet, to keep within 2% to 3% voltage drop.

OCPD no less than 125% times the continuous load. (40 x 1.25 =50)

Now that we gave him the answer, did he really learn anything? Next time he has to size a cable is he going to look it up himself or simply come here and ask us?
 
Is wire size based on the battery or the inverter attached to the battery?
Wire size minimum from battery to inverter is based on the max load - amperage- the inverter could present. I like to oversize this cable/wire but fuse it for the correct sized cable.
Wire size minimum from SCC to battery is based on the max amperage output of the SCC. I again like this wire/cable to be oversized but fuse for 15% over SCC output amps.

(I oversize these cables first for a possible gain of absolute efficiency; secondly, to basically eliminate hot wiring issues; and by going way to big I can usually upgrade components without buying new cables. I also sorta make sure these are 105C rated)

I’d suggest playing with the voltage loss calculator ideas posted prior and getting a sense of what happens. Very useful learning curve.
 
A wire size chart that I found was incorrect or I was reading it wrong. I can see on a different chart that #6 works at 50A for quite a long distance. My inverter/batt/SCC will be very close to each other. I also get that the OCPD should be 50A.

I've watched a lot of videos and I never heard anyone explicitly say that wire size from battery to inverter is based on the AMPs that the inverter can pull from the battery so at least that is clear now. This is probably common sense to most people, but I'm one of those types that wants to read or hear it so I'm without a doubt.

BMS will be based on max amp draw so again 50 amp minimum. I would be closer to 80 or 100 as the cost may not be much extra.

So I can either meet the minimum or go over the minimum - If I had a 200 AMP BMS laying around (I don't), is there any harm in using it?
I ask about 200 as just a way to find out if there is any upper limits.
 
Higher amp rated BMS is not an issue. Must be compatible with the battery voltage and cell count.
Could get two 12v BMS but in essence it would be two 12v batteries in series and while workable I don't recommend it.
 
A wire size chart that I found was incorrect or I was reading it wrong. I can see on a different chart that #6 works at 50A for quite a long distance. My inverter/batt/SCC will be very close to each other. I also get that the OCPD should be 50A.

I've watched a lot of videos and I never heard anyone explicitly say that wire size from battery to inverter is based on the AMPs that the inverter can pull from the battery so at least that is clear now. This is probably common sense to most people, but I'm one of those types that wants to read or hear it so I'm without a doubt.



So I can either meet the minimum or go over the minimum - If I had a 200 AMP BMS laying around (I don't), is there any harm in using it?
I ask about 200 as just a way to find out if there is any upper limits.
So I don't know if you are up for learning a little about the math behind the selection of components used in these power systems. But I have Covid 19 and am not going anywhere for at least 2 weeks.
There are 2 major considerations when designing these systems. The needed Power Capability, the actual Voltages, Currents, and Wattage, that can be present during operation, and the Safety margins used to design the physical characteristics of the components used for safety factors so that you don't catch fire or blow up and meet N.E.C. Standards. In most cases, N.E.C requires a 25% safety factor. These calculations can in some cases be very complex especially when it comes to AC circuits. XC/XL R True Power and power factor. But for the most part, DC equivalents can be used for designing these systems.
There are 4 basic formulas that are needed I=E/R, E=I*R, R=E/I, and P=E*I, where E is Voltage, I = Current (amps), R resistance, Resistance to electricity–that is, electrical resistance–is a force that counteracts the flow of current. Also, Power which is the combination of Voltage, Current, and time is defined as the unit of measure that performs work. Power is the rate at which work is done. In this case, rate means per unit of time. Power is calculated by dividing the work done by the time it took to do the work. The unit of measure for the watt is really watt/second or joule. So when calculating these values it is important to keep the Units Straight, especially time, watt/sec, watt/hours, etc. Most multi-meters only consider the values relevant to the "Second" for instance One ampere is equal to 1 coulomb or 6.241509074×1018 electrons worth of charge moving past a point in a second. The standard unit of electric potential is the volt (V), in honor of Count Alessandro Volta (1745 - 1827), known for his development of the electric battery. A volt is equivalent to one joule of energy per coulomb of charge (V = J / C) or Joules/coulomb electrical Pressure or potential. You have to realize that no current flows until the resistance of the circuit is reduced to a value where electrons move in response to the circuit's closure. A switch is basically defined as low resistance. I= E/R so you also have to have a load that uses or dissipates the power to do some job, I.E. does work. So the Design of the Circuits has to be designed to handle 125% of the maximum circuit amps. The Loads have to be capable of dissipating the 125% of the energy delivered so they don't overheat of course depending on what type of load it is. THE N.E.C. code deals with these minimum requirements. A simple series Circuit could be as simple as a Battery, a Switch, a Load, and connecting wires. The values in the circuit determine the selection of the components. If I want to design a 100-watt heater circuit, this is simple, I need a power source capable of delivering at least 100 watts, and a load "Resister" that can dissipate that 100 watts. I need a switch that will switch the current flow. The components that determine the Voltage, current, and watts are what is important. If my system is a higher Voltage then the current will be lower with the same watts. This is because of what is called the current squared law. P=I*I*R, also P=I*E, and E=I*R Substituting E for I*R you get the P=I*I*R.
If I have a circuit where I use a 1 Volt battery and a .01-ohm resister, the current would be 100 amperes of current and the power is 100 watts. But I could re-design it to be a 100 Volt circuit and use a 1.0-ohm resistor This would be 1.0 Amps of Current but the power dissipated is still the same 100 watts. The real advantage here is the size and cost of the wire as well as the other components such as the switch. The Cost of the battery source is also an issue because 100 Volt batteries cost more than a 1 Volt battery with a capacity of the current needed to source the load in ampere-hours or watt-hours. You can see that with higher currents the higher the cost in general. This all has to do with the physics of Mass. The real Crux of the matter is the cost of the material. It is generally all about saving money in manufacturing costs. This is why most systems are moving to higher voltages. This may or may not be possible because there are limitations at both ends and a balance. Silicon devices cost more to manufacture at higher voltages and lower voltages are typically safer.
The other thing that is not obvious to most people is that Resistance in a circuit with current flowing always exhibits an associated voltage drop. So even though the resistance on a very large conductor is very low it is not zero and as such has a voltage drop if there is electrical current flowing there are voltage drops across the wire and connections that also exhibit wattage dissipation. So Poor or bad connections can heat due to these unintended resistances. Only Super Conductors exhibit little or no resistance, and of course, the power loss follows the P=I*I*R formula called I squared R loss. This is why Wire Ampacity Tables and Wire Resistance Tables are so important to understand.
 
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This is excellent. Thanks for all the pointers. I'll copy/paste this into my personal FAQ document.

I really had a hard time seeing the inverter as a load and knowing what parameters to use to calculate wire size. For example, using your P=E*I from above and turning it into I=P/E is 83=1000/12 given a 1000w/12v inverter so I know now the inverter will be pulling 83A maximum and with that, I need to look at a wire chart. In this case, it says if less than 15ft of cable 4AWG is needed.

In my case, my battery is 24v and my inverter is 1000w so 46=100/24. 46A maximum if the inverter can operate 1000w continuous - I round 46 to 50A. I look at the wire chart and see that if the wire is less than 15ft, I need 6AWG.

I also had to constantly keep in mind that the fuse/CB is to protect wire not the accessories connected to the wire. I read that on here somewhere. To keep this in mind, I often think of a window AC that someone has used a tiny extension cord to power, the fuses/CB involved in this situation is to protect the wire, not the AC. By protecting the wire, if that wire is laying on carpet, the carpet is protected from catching on fire.

The battery/CC/inverter have common connection points, but the wire from battery to inverter is often bigger than the wire from CC to battery so depending on the situation, the wire from battery to inverter needs a different CB/fuse than the wire going from the CC to the battery. In my case, I need a 40A CB from CC to battery and a 50A from battery to inverter.

I've watched a ton of videos, but a true understanding of all involved happens only with experience is what I've had to acknowledge to myself.
 
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