information overload or tech changes?

[stuffnjunk]

I have been watching countless videos, read William's book, read some peer reviewed journal articles regarding bifacial panels in northern climates, looked at several manufacturer's sites, and all I can say is I am confused as it appears I am entering this area as the tech is changing over.

Just some background information for those who would care to respond. I currently have a home in PA with several acres of unobstructed and open land on which I would like to mount a ground array consisting of bifacial panels. I am also considering, due to wood pellet and oil costs soaring this year, removing the pellet stove and installing a mini split (s) in my basement. Pellet stove only heats my basement. I would also like to have some battery backup capacity. I own the pole on my property from the utility, which has to have the meter on it and a disconnect. I then have about 100 foot run to the panel in the home. From the home I have a sub panel which runs to the pole building with a panel. I already own a winco 10k generator for outages, which I have mobile in my pole building and setup to backfeed through the sub panel (to eliminate noise and to hide from thieves) for critical loads like the furnace and fridge freezer. Most of the work I have either done myself, with an electrician, or I hired an electrician to do. I am fortunate in that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a lineman in my area.

Pellets went to about 310 a ton this year and I go through about 2 ton a year (were about 200-230 last year and I buy them straight from the mill). SO the cost of the pellets, fuel to go get them and return, the work to unload and load in basement (I have a tractor with pallet forks so it isn't too bad), coupled with the increased electricity costs this year and the yearly maintenance cost of the stove has me rethinking things. Plus I am getting older and my knee is kinda sketchy.

PA has net metering but penelec subtracts the distribution charges selling back, but the srec credits are about 31 (last I looked) 30 percent fed credit, and if I build about a 9k system, I'm looking at too many variables to get a real ROI, but from what I have read and the videos 8-10 years seems like a good SWAG. Most of the work I will do myself, or do the quid pro quo method with a lineman, or when neither works just hire someone.

Questions/concerns:
Can I use my winco gas powered generator to feed the batteries in one of these all in one systems if I am not producing the solar needed and there is a blackout? I hear them talk about it, but I am not seeing videos showing it.

These all in one setups are the current tech? I'm referencing the cube as an example. It appears pricey compared to buying parts.

Why am I looking at bifacial? I live in the north, I get snow and cold weather, and 2 peer reviewed journals can't be entirely wrong can they? I understand the increased cost of these panels, but in an SE-SW configuration on a hill top with a steeper angle and reflective subbase, with about a meter to a meter and a half placement off the ground, it seems like the logical choice. Maybe I got too into it and this tech is too new to know. I'm not worried about moving them (their weight), I have a 50hp tractor and pallet forks and can move a ton of pellets on a skid.

Is the meter collar a gimmick? If I am backfeeding the grid through my house then through 100 plus feet of line to the meter with disconnect, I don't think it would help me. I really don't want to run lines through my front yard again. That was a PITA 16 years ago with the cable, water, sewer, power, and inspections.

Side note, I am in my offseason from my side hustle and am retired from full time work. I am currently consuming2-4 hours of reading or videos a day to educate myself but no one to bounce ideas off of. sorry for the long post, and maybe it went sideways from my original intent.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Questions/concerns:
Can I use my winco gas powered generator to feed the batteries in one of these all in one systems if I am not producing the solar needed and there is a blackout? I hear them talk about it, but I am not seeing videos showing it.

The AiO are notoriously finicky about input AC power quality. if your generator is an inverter generator, yes. if it's not an inverter generator, you'll need a Chargeverter.

These all in one setups are the current tech?

Sure. Why not. The technological advance is only in getting more cheaper and more Chinese-y. The big boys have already produced best in class and are simply making micro-improvements.

I'm referencing the cube as an example.

cube?

It appears pricey compared to buying parts.

cube?

Why am I looking at bifacial? I live in the north, I get snow and cold weather, and 2 peer reviewed journals can't be entirely wrong can they? I understand the increased cost of these panels, but in an SE-SW configuration on a hill top with a steeper angle and reflective subbase, with about a meter to a meter and a half placement off the ground, it seems like the logical choice. Maybe I got too into it and this tech is too new to know. I'm not worried about moving them (their weight), I have a 50hp tractor and pallet forks and can move a ton of pellets on a skid.

Bi-facial have been demonstrated to be very effective and beneficial in high reflectivity environments at steep-ish angles and while 1m+ above the ground/mounting surface.

Is the meter collar a gimmick? If I am backfeeding the grid through my house then through 100 plus feet of line to the meter with disconnect, I don't think it would help me. I really don't want to run lines through my front yard again. That was a PITA 16 years ago with the cable, water, sewer, power, and inspections.

Without a tie-in agreement with your utility, no means of preventing backfeed is 100% successful.

 

[stuffnjunk]

The AiO are notoriously finicky about input AC power quality. if your generator is an inverter generator, yes. if it's not an inverter generator, you'll need a Chargeverter.




Sure. Why not. The technological advance is only in getting more cheaper and more Chinese-y. The big boys have already produced best in class and are simply making micro-improvements.



cube?



cube?



Bi-facial have been demonstrated to be very effective and beneficial in high reflectivity environments at steep-ish angles and while 1m+ above the ground/mounting surface.



Without a tie-in agreement with your utility, no means of preventing backfeed is 100% successful.

My apologies, too many videos and I wasn't thinking that people wouldn't understand the reference. Currently, this model is being bandied about by all the youtubers in the last couple of months, as they must have shipped units to all of them to test (market). The EP Cube is another of what I was calling an all in one setup - although I understand it isn't quite that simple.

Here is a link referencing the unit (made by canadian solar) https://signaturesolar.com/ep-cube-energy-storage-system-all-in-one-solar-backup-power-bndl-c0000/

Most of the videos I am seeing are for off grid inverters or no net metering, which isn't my application. So I guess I am going hybrid (if all the numbers pan out). I don't want to go off grid as I already have my own pole on my property, disconnect at the pole, and the under ground lines running into the home. None of that was cheap and I did a lot of it myself. Besides, I'm sure the elec company is like the sewer company and will find a way to charge me whether or not I use their service. I've been down that road before, and paid legal fees and sewer fees over it and the house wasn't even physically connected to the sewer for 8 months.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

Questions/concerns:
Can I use my winco gas powered generator to feed the batteries in one of these all in one systems if I am not producing the solar needed and there is a blackout?

that is the theory. As noted above, quality of output on that generator can impact matters. And then how it responds to hybrid inverter responding to a situation where generator plus solar is more power than needed. My newbie understanding is that typically an invertor will start adjusting AC voltage frequency.. or something like that. Presumably, what you'd want is where invertor takes all the solar required and uses the generator only for whatever excess is required (vs typical scenario being pulling from grid). That means the invertor needs to be be specifically compatible with the generator and how it responds. Of course, I've not done this, so could be completely off-base. But as this is a relatively new scenario, I would not expect there to be a good clean/mature standard to follow so checking ahead likely required for specific models involved.
Then, adding a whole house battery would add a wrinkle to this scenario.
Considerations would be are you using a micro-invertor that does AC output from the panel, or DC string from panels. That could make a difference (if I recall correctly) on input balancing on the invertor (which will vary by make/model). I believe I've come across reference to grid-tie inverters specifically with generator input option. I suspect, that taking generator input and sending to battery (less finicky?) then using battery output plus solar to grid-down local power would be the desire, but how to accomplish that (specific invertor, generator model and/or settings, etc)?
suffice it to say... I'll be interested to hear what you find out

These all in one setups are the current tech? I'm referencing the cube as an example. It appears pricey compared to buying parts.

Yea, the Canadian Solar EP Cube vs EG4 PowerPro wall-mount vs others... I too am curious why the EP Cube is sooo much more expensive than the EG4 PowerPro. then again, Canadian Solar may think of themselves as competing against Tesla instead of EG4??

Is the meter collar a gimmick? If I am backfeeding the grid through my house then through 100 plus feet of line to the meter with disconnect, I don't think it would help me. I really don't want to run lines through my front yard again. That was a PITA 16 years ago with the cable, water, sewer, power, and inspections.

The meter collar, from my limited understanding, is an approach used when that is cheaper/easier (or the only option) to connect to electric (usually main) load center. Assuming you have space/capacity in your load center for a 240V 2-pole breaker, I'd assume you would NOT want to use a collar. And connecting at collar would bypass the disconnect...

As for grid-tie inverter placement: you must NOT export electricity in a grid-down situation (protect those linemen). That means the inverter typically is installed between meter and main load center (where it can control electricity flow).
The typical configuration (again, from my newbie understanding) with a grid-tie system is that your electrical connections for solar panels, house battery, generator input, etc are all direct into Invertor, and then output from Invertor to either Main load center, and possibly a critical load only sub-panel.

Please clarify:

I own the pole on my property from the utility, which has to have the meter on it and a disconnect. I then have about 100 foot run to the panel in the home. From the home I have a sub panel which runs to the pole building with a panel.​

do you mean you have multiple high Amp capable cable runs to same pole (building)? ie main service entrance cable from meter to main load center in house, and then another cable going back out from main load center to to same pole/building for sub-panel? Assuming yes:
- What purpose does that sub-panel serve? just providing 120V to misc in that building + generator input?
Do you have an switch for grid vs generator input? or do you just manually disconnect from grid at pole (main disconnect), fire up generator, and manually reverse that process when you determine grid back up?
- and you are thinking of hybrid grid-tie inverter in the pole building connected at sub-panel, the issue I'd think is that you can't feed the house but not the grid (as you'd have nothing to prevent it. and that is a complete no-no in grid down situation.. think mid-day solar production. In my (and I believe is the grid-tie requirement, a monitoring device uses a consumption tracking to watch the grid power. If the grid goes down, then solar PV production stops... unless you have a way to automatically prevent grid-export. My system currently does not have such (AC output from panels), as adding that capability would have added thousands US$ onto system price-tag (basically the cost of a grid-tie invertor + install) and power very rarely goes out where I live).
- Maybe re-route circuit such that you go from meter to disconnect to hybrid invertor in pole building. And then feed Main Load center (and possibly directly feed sub-panel as well) from hybrid inverter. Assuming an invertor that could power 2 load centers (main and sub-panel, directly), you'd be freeing up that circuit from main load center to pole building sub-panel for a different use, like possibly a battery connection if you want the house batteries installed in-home (basement/wherever) to avoid cold impact??

I'm guessing what you have to consider is in a grid-down situation, what do you want to power? everything, only some things? if not everything, are you ok with manually going to the in-house main load center and turning off certain circuit breakers? or do you want/need something like a new (quite expensive) SPAN main load center to enable automated circuit management (there are other cheaper options)

I'm new here, hopefully my responses aren't wrong. we shall see. hopefully I understood correctly, and gave you something to think about

 

[stuffnjunk]

Please clarify:

I own the pole on my property from the utility, which has to have the meter on it and a disconnect. I then have about 100 foot run to the panel in the home. From the home I have a sub panel which runs to the pole building with a panel.

Ok, the line from the company hits the can on the other side of the road, then transitions across the road to my pole on my property. I asked the company if they would put a can there before crossing the road because I live in the boondocks and the lines here tend to drop towards the end of a run. Since I know some linemen, I asked them and that is what they recommended. Per the electric company and the building inspector I had to install a disconnect at my pole on my property (and an outlet for some reason that hasn't been used in 10+ years). From the disconnect on the pole I ran the line underground in PVC, through the basement wall, then to my main panel (all in PVC). From the main panel I have a sub panel (right next to it) because I was running out of breaker spaces (I wanted everything on it's own circuit for the most part). That sub panel has the breaker for the line running to my pole building (which has it's own panel and breakers). That line was all run underground in PVC. The winco 10k gas genny is out in the garage (on wheels) and backfeeds that sub panel (in the garage) to the sub panel that sits next to the main panel in the house basement. The breaker is shut off at the main panel in the house, and at the pole's panel when the genny is run (only for testing so far).

Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been doing research on materials and techniques for remodeling my bathroom and haven't visited this site other than a quick lurk for a bit. I've done construction work before, but since I mainly paint and stain I had to update my knowledge on newer materials. Pretty amazing what they have come up with in the last ten years for bathrooms. Pretty much a complete gut job including new tile in shower, cabinets, floors, etc.

With respect to the main power line, pole disconnect, lines run underground to main panel, and installation of the sub panel in the basement, everything passed inspection. Had a friend who works for one of the power co help a lot (he had the truck for the pole). Since then, I have had no less than 4-5 electricians come by to help me when I am stuck working on something. Mostly they advise and then return to inspect my work (most like it as it is the easiest money they will make). I know that I cannot back feed the main line, and having several friends/associates that are linemen I would never dream of hurting them.

 

[KevinC_63559]

I'm fond of the Victron brand of inverter chargers. You have to be careful with the models though, many are designed for the European market (230V single phase) vs. the USA's 240V split phase. That said, their Quattro 120V unit is designed to be fed by both the grid and a generator. All the Victron inverter/chargers allow you to current limit the power feeds, so that you don't overload a circuit or a generator (most were originally designed for the RV & Boat market where they commonly have limited 30amp or 50amp "shore" power). If you want to provide 240V split phase, you need two units and a software tweak (some suppliers, like CurrentConnected, will pre-configure the units for them if you ask them to). Their Multiplus series work the same way, but only have a single feed, so you would need to use a transfer box. Normal transfer boxes, as I understand them, will allow you to either power the units from a generator OR the grid, not both.

If you plan on backfeeding power to the grid, you open up a whole 'nother can of worms.

Personally, I'm going to keep it simple and plan to:

A) Have a main breaker panel my grid power comes to
B) Run all non-critical 240V loads through that panel
C) Run a 50amp breaker to a Multiplus II
D) How the Multiplus II wired to a sub-panel with all my 120V breakers.

In reality, the main breaker panel will be new and adjacent to my current breaker panel. I have enough flex in my feed line to simply move it from the existing panel to the new one. For this office/workshop project, I only have (3) 240V breakers, which I can move over to the new panel. I'll pull the main breaker off the old panel, and feed via normal breaker the Multiplus II power - avoiding having to rewire all the 120V circuits.

The next phase house project will be more complicated, requiring at least a pair of Multiplus IIs to provide 240V split phase to the entire house. I'll use a similar panel-next-to-panel approach to minimize wiring changes.

At least that's the plan <smile>.

FYI - not backfeeding at any phase because I have a solar hostile electric coop provider. They charge something like $120/month for a bidirectional meter, or I can install a 2nd meter for $42/month but will only be paid wholesale for the power provided. One of those worms, as well, is if your grid connected, you need to cut power to the grid if it fails. I'm pretty sure the Victron Quattro (and perhaps the MultiPlus II) units have a 2nd relay built in to automate that requirement. If you are backfeeding, make sure everything is UL listed for that purpose.