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Inside a Victron LiFePO4 Battery

Will Prowse

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Found these posted on a diy solar group that I was browsing. What a joke! Winston prismatics inside?! Victron charges an arm and a leg for these things. Not very impressive in my opinion. What do you think?

Edit: Winston cells are great, but I was expecting something better inside for the price. Considering we can buy these cells on alibaba for a few hundred dollars.
78488421_2644197848994393_9217353241484853248_n.jpg78265363_2644197265661118_3157758559878381568_n.jpg
 
q: What name pops into your mind as the dominant player in the Lifepo4 drop in replacement market segment?
a: Bet it doesn't start with a "V".
 
The cells aren't junk and are from a manufacturer with a good reputation, so there is that. The power side of it looks all very well done. No spaghetti wiring, nice beefy copper pads etc. The battery will do what it says on the box and Victron will be around in 5 years time if it doesn't.

Personally I think Victron batteries are not the right choice for a DIYer because of the price. They are targetted at the market segment where you want a product that you know will work and not need someone to fiddle with it, perhaps flying there to do it, for years.
 
I think its not there core competency but more of a checklist item in their portfolio.
Agreed about the market segment they are courting.
Not sure how old that battery is either.
 
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Is it possible somebody just put Winston cells in a Victron shell?
 
Found these posted on a diy solar group that I was browsing. What a joke! Winston prismatics inside?! Victron charges an arm and a leg for these things. Not very impressive in my opinion. What do you think?

Edit: Winston cells are great, but I was expecting something better inside for the price. Considering we can buy these cells on alibaba for a few hundred dollars.
View attachment 3020View attachment 3019
It is interesting that the cells are DIRECTLY connected to the terminals and each other...

The BMS boards appear to have inductors on them for balancing, but I don’t see any way to prevent over discharge or low temp charging...
 
It is interesting that the cells are DIRECTLY connected to the terminals and each other...

The BMS boards appear to have inductors on them for balancing, but I don’t see any way to prevent over discharge or low temp charging...
My understanding is that you need to handle that externally. Victron sells a bms/control system with temp sensors etc. I have never set it up and it seems like a pain in the butt. But it is possible to add those features. It's not a true "drop in" replacement. It requires victron system management
 
My understanding is that you need to handle that externally. Victron sells a bms/control system with temp sensors etc. I have never set it up and it seems like a pain in the butt. But it is possible to add those features. It's not a true "drop in" replacement. It requires victron system management
Well, that makes sense.
 
The distributed BMS looks like a 123SmartBMS although there are a few others out there but none are cheap, so inevitable tat will add to the cost for Victron & the end customer too. Nothing "B Grade" in the Victron batteries but boy are they ever dear $ even with all the good stuff in there.

I would expect these prices to fall fairly quickly as new cell factories are opening up in Europe which Victron has some contracts with, so soon, hopefully....
 
I'm planning a new battery bank, and every day I'm leaning more towards SLA, partly because of things like this. I think it is far more rampant than we even think, but we are fortunate enough to have Will exposing it.
 
Because of things like this ? WHAT ??? The Victron Battery is EXCELLENT stuff not a Riuxu or ShunBin !
Same with BattleBorn Great bits o make a great product.
 
I'm planning a new battery bank, and every day I'm leaning more towards SLA, partly because of things like this. I think it is far more rampant than we even think, but we are fortunate enough to have Will exposing it.
Because of things like this ? WHAT ??? The Victron Battery is EXCELLENT stuff not a Riuxu or ShunBin !
Same with BattleBorn Great bits o make a great product.

The crappy china companies are ripping people off by selling junk, and the reputable companies are ripping people off by charging waaaay more than the sum of the parts.

You still can't beat FLA's for reliable power and value per dollar, so I won't get a big lithium bank until the prices become more reasonable...it will happen pretty soon IMO, but until then FLA is the way to go if weight isn't a problem.
 
Winston is crappy ? Since When ? I know from your posts you really have an issue with everything / anything China exports... but seriously, get a grip and calm down please. Might as well say CALB, Sinopoly etc are also all garbage.... Do you think for Half a Second that Victron would use any junk anything ? If you think so PROVE IT ! and not just opinion but actual reliable, verifiable, tangible fact.

As for "Reputable" companies who are making profits for shareholders, is that anything new ? None sell at Cost+10% as the base MSRP, warranty coverage, component testing & assurances, complete device QA and more costs money.

Did you NOT know that Dewalt, Back & Decker Tools, PorterCable tools are all owned on one International Holding Company. All designed by the same in-house designers & engineers, all SUB-CONTRACTED to a factory in China who makes the tools / parts to the specs sent to them by the US designers.... B&D being the crap consumer occasional use tool, PC being mid range "better quality" while DeWalt is both High End Consumer & Pro series tools... So you want t blame the sub-contractor or the designer with crappy secs ?

Thundersky &
inston
 
You still can't beat FLA's for reliable power and value per dollar, so I won't get a big lithium bank until the prices become more reasonable...it will happen pretty soon IMO, but until then FLA is the way to go if weight isn't a problem.

namechemistry DODnominal voltageAH$min advertised cycleslifetime WHmin lifetime WH per $
battelborn0.812.8100$949.00300030720003237.09

@SolarRat please double check my math and add a row for an FLA of your choice.
Not saying you are wrong just want to see the numbers.
 
Winston is crappy ? Since When ?

Where did I say that? You need to pay more attention to the meaning of words before jumping down someone's throat. Shunbin=crappy, Victron/Battleborn=reputable/quality but way overpriced. I won't bother replying to the rest of your post because it is all based on your false assumption I said Winston was crappy. Jeesh, pay attention!

The reason the "good" companies are still overpriced is because of people, who are known as lithium "fanboys", perpetuating the myth that you must use lithium and anything else sucks. That allows these big companies to continue to overcharge. If people used common sense when it came to the value of a dollar, supply and demand would quickly take care of the over-priced batteries.

On this site recommending lead acids, even when the situation clearly calls for it (cold weather once a week cabin, budget builds, huge capacity backup systems etc) the Fanboys all get their panties in a bunch.

I've used lithiums every day for the past 15 years. I've used lead acids for over 3 decades in larger systems. I will recommend what is right for a particular job. One thing I will not recommend is junk (mystery batteries). You bought one of those mystery batteries so you obviously have a problem with me pointing out the truth. I'm trying to protect the rest from possibly making the same mistake. Maybe it's not a mistake at all, but only time will tell.

There's nothing wrong with a Victron or Battleborn, they are good (great) batteries, But their value does not make sense if cost is a concern. That's all I'm saying.
 
Where did I say that? You need to pay more attention to the meaning of words before jumping down someone's throat. Shunbin=crappy, Victron/Battleborn=reputable/quality but way overpriced. I won't bother replying to the rest of your post because it is all based on your false assumption I said Winston was crappy. Jeesh, pay attention!

The reason the "good" companies are still overpriced is because of people, who are known as lithium "fanboys", perpetuating the myth that you must use lithium and anything else sucks. That allows these big companies to continue to overcharge. If people used common sense when it came to the value of a dollar, supply and demand would quickly take care of the over-priced batteries.

On this site recommending lead acids, even when the situation clearly calls for it (cold weather once a week cabin, budget builds, huge capacity backup systems etc) the Fanboys all get their panties in a bunch.

I've used lithiums every day for the past 15 years. I've used lead acids for over 3 decades in larger systems. I will recommend what is right for a particular job. One thing I will not recommend is junk (mystery batteries). You bought one of those mystery batteries so you obviously have a problem with me pointing out the truth. I'm trying to protect the rest from possibly making the same mistake. Maybe it's not a mistake at all, but only time will tell.

There's nothing wrong with a Victron or Battleborn, they are good (great) batteries, But their value does not make sense if cost is a concern. That's all I'm saying.

A tad strongly worded, but all true.

I think understanding why a product available is “over priced” might be in order.

If any company sold things “for the sum of the parts” they wouldn’t make much profit... and profit keeps the doors open. Keeps innovation for better products, keeps warranty paid for when innovation didn’t cover all circumstances...

Fanboys pay for what works, and what continues to work, and what is well supported.

I build stuff myself. It works, or it doesn’t, and when it breaks, I buy more stuff to fix it.

Higher priced brand name stuff gets fixed by the company supplying it...

Sometimes MONEY is the cheapest way to pay for things... sometimes DIY labor is more fun.

Both have their place.
 
namechemistry DODnominal voltageAH$min advertised cycleslifetime WHmin lifetime WH per $
battelborn0.812.8100$949.00300030720003237.09
@SolarRat please double check my math and add a row for an FLA of your choice.

Not saying you are wrong just want to see the numbers.

You can't always use the same parameters to compare different batteries. I could use some parameters to make LA's always come out the winner, and other parameters always have lithiums come out the winner.

Your chosen parameters are all dependent on the amount of advertised(!) cycles, which in some cases doesn't matter one bit. For instance, on average I probably only use the electric motors on my boat for about 1 cycle per week. People with off-grid weekend cabins, RV's that are used a few times a month, or UPS/battery backup systems for occasional emergency use etc all fall in the same category as me....the cycles don't mean squat.

A FLA battery bank, when properly cared for (always charged, <50% DOD etc) should last over 1000 cycles, some much more, some much less. But let's say I'm always using my boat longer than I should and discharge down to 75% here and there. I still get hundreds of cycles, which is many many years. In most cases, calendar age does mine in long before cycle count, usually about 4-5 years on an open boat in the hot Florida sun, but others in cooler climates and out of the sun can go 10 years.

For daily cycling use, reputable lithium batteries will/should beat LA's if they both last their rated cycles. Not much disagreement there. But they have to last their rated cycles first, and that could be well over 10 years. I'm in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp. Some batteries, like Winstons, have been around a long time and there is plenty of first hand accounts of how long they may last. They can do 10+ years in a properly designed system, no problem. But put them in a poorly designed system, overcharge or overdrain, and they may not last as long as LAs. These new blue mystery batteries have to prove they can outlast LA's before I would even consider them an option. I've read too many stories of them failing in months or a couple years...so I'll stick to LA's until the good ones get separated from the junk that won't last 2 years.

So my plan is to use cheap LA's on my boat for the next few years, and I expect lithium battery prices to drop 50% by the time I need to replace my latest bank. Then, it will be a no-brainer to switch. And by then, there should be much better options for BMS's, and maybe charge controllers will actually be designed for lithium batteries rather than today's CC's that were designed for LAs but warmed over and sold as "lithium capable".
 
namechemistry DODnominal voltageAH$min advertised cycleslifetime WHmin lifetime WH per $
battelborn0.812.8100$949.00300030720003237.09
EastPenn 31DCM0.512105/115100.00800?508,8005088.00


I'll play the game even though I don't like the rules. ?

I used the battery I've been using on my boats for a long time. It's a true deep cycle made by East Penn and sold under many different brands like Duracell (Sears, some Walmarts), Superstart (O'reilly) and others. I paid $95 each at O'reilly for my latest bank. Some stores/brands call them 105ah, others say 115ah. They test somewhere close to either for me, depending on temp.

6v golf cart batteries would probably compare better though, I just don't use them much myself.
 
Winston is crappy ? Since When ? I know from your posts you really have an issue with everything / anything China exports... but seriously, get a grip and calm down please. Might as well say CALB, Sinopoly etc are also all garbage.... Do you think for Half a Second that Victron would use any junk anything ? If you think so PROVE IT ! and not just opinion but actual reliable, verifiable, tangible fact.

As for "Reputable" companies who are making profits for shareholders, is that anything new ? None sell at Cost+10% as the base MSRP, warranty coverage, component testing & assurances, complete device QA and more costs money.

Did you NOT know that Dewalt, Back & Decker Tools, PorterCable tools are all owned on one International Holding Company. All designed by the same in-house designers & engineers, all SUB-CONTRACTED to a factory in China who makes the tools / parts to the specs sent to them by the US designers.... B&D being the crap consumer occasional use tool, PC being mid range "better quality" while DeWalt is both High End Consumer & Pro series tools... So you want t blame the sub-contractor or the designer with crappy secs ?
Who are you talking to? I think everyone here agrees with you. Why the hostile attitude?
 
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