Insurance and DIY Battery banks

[petee_c]

Has anyone had problems with their home insurance when they have a DIY Solar Battery bank in their house?

I'm thinking of a solar/load shifting arrangement with supplementation from the grid. Not net-metering.

I'm revisiting solar for my home in Southern Ontario Canada (Lat ~43.5N). I have a large roof, but we have some mature trees around that will shade parts of the roof. Looking at possibly a small E and larger W facing array.

Anyways, looks like our home uses around 900-1300kWh of energy per month. Plus we will have 2 EV's that will require 400-500kWh of charging per month.

Plan:
-stay grid connected and switch to the ultra low EV rate for 11pm-7am charging (~$0.03/kWh); also use the grid to charge the battery bank (14-28kWh) size overnight to use in the house the next day. This will happen daily in the winter months.
- 'smaller' solar array on the roof, will charge the battery during the day spring thru fall.
- run most of/all of the house on the battery/solar during the day.

I think battery prices have come down enough, that I can get decent payback by doing a smaller solar array/ decent size battery, and load shifting and running most of my house on energy stored from the 'cheap' EV overnight rate.

Looking for a solar inverter/charger that can also take power from the grid at set times to top up the battery if needed. Something with a CSA or UL or cUL rating

right now batteryhookup has 4 new Grade A 280Ah cells available for $450USD. I could get enough sells to build a 48V 280Ah battery for $1800USD plus shipping. That's 13.5kWh. $3600USD would get me 27kWh, which might be enough to run my whole house for 16hrs/day.

 

[Danke]

This has been discussed before. But there are many non-listed electrical products people use in their homes. And I’m not aware of any insurance company denying claims because of that.

I called my insurance company and specifically asked about solar installation and insurance. The representative said there would be no change in my policy nor rates, my Solar would be covered.

I did not get that in writing, so take it for what it’s worth.

 

[Steve_S]

I'm in Ontario.
State-Farm is very picky and wants the inspectors to ensure ULC/CSA and they even had issues about being in a separate structure and batteries to be in sealed vented fireproof boxes (left over from FLA idiocy).

Co-Operators is more reasonable but they have their "sticky spots" (I have Co-Operators Insurance).

Some companies won't even touch solar or batteries.

Check with your insurance co. Ask a question as a HYPOTHETICAL - I'm Thinking of options approach !
Then check a few others and compare their answers BUT ask for a Web Link to any policy or requirements they may have !!! Do NOT Assume the human knows the Full Details & Truths, get it on "paper".

@ 1300kWh per month usage ÷ 30 days = 43.3kWh per day.
Round up to 45kWh per day X 3 days autonomy 135kWh stored.

48V/280AH = 14,336Wh or 14.3kWh. 3 Packs = 42.9kWh (1 day roughly)
9 Packs for a full 3 days autonomy.
Understand that will require a LOT of Solar and serious Solar Charge Controllers.
BEWARE OF AIO's ! High Voltage Solar Controllers BUT they don't deliver Huge Amps. For a system with 50kWh+ you need HUNDREDS of charging amps. Example: 3x280AH can take 420A for 1 hour to charge from 0% to 100%, or 210A for 2 hours and so on.

Also consider that a standard 240V/100A Service Panel requires an inverter system that delivers 24,000 Watts ! and of course 200A Main Service panel will require double that. IF you are planning on running your whole home off battery & solar. At this level, it is best to use Tier-1 Product that is ULC/CSA Certified like Victron, Schneider etc...

 

[petee_c]

I am watching some webinars on Victron ESS at the moment.

I will ask the insurance company about the Solar. We are currently with Desjardins (they were state farm before). I have a 3500W gas generator for backup. Ever since we got the gas generator over 10yrs ago, we've had maybe 10hrs total power outage... Our grid is fairly reliable.

While I like to use as much solar / cheap electricity as possible, it is not necessary if the Victron equipment can provide my house with a mix of PV / BATTERY/ GRID power to run the loads....

I would like to start out with probably 27kWh of battery capacity for the home system.... probably a 5000kW solar array on the roof.

 

[petee_c]

Insurance agent says they insure solar systems. The only policies that are denied that he remembers are ones where you lease the roof space to a separate company for the solar and don't own the panels.

 

[Brett V]

I am watching some webinars on Victron ESS at the moment.

I will ask the insurance company about the Solar. We are currently with Desjardins (they were state farm before). I have a 3500W gas generator for backup. Ever since we got the gas generator over 10yrs ago, we've had maybe 10hrs total power outage... Our grid is fairly reliable.

While I like to use as much solar / cheap electricity as possible, it is not necessary if the Victron equipment can provide my house with a mix of PV / BATTERY/ GRID power to run the loads....

I would like to start out with probably 27kWh of battery capacity for the home system.... probably a 5000kW solar array on the roof.

Maybe a grid tied system would be better for you?

 

[A.Justice]

I also contacted my insurance company directly to ask about my DIY battery bank. I was told by representative that there shouldn't be any coverage issues. He said to read the coverage guide to my plan, and if it is not specifically excluded, it is included. The booklet mentions nothing about solar or DIY battery banks, leading me to believe that they should be an issue.

 

[petee_c]

Maybe a grid tied system would be better for you?

I don't think so... our net metering here is 1kWh:1kWh....I believe excess kWh I consume would be billed at a fairly high rate.

- I would need a very large solar array - ~16KW to maybe produce 80% of the energy I consume..... due to our gray winters, and my neighbor also has a few mature trees that will shade a portion of our roof in the afternoon....

- If I can buy electricity overnight at 2.8¢/kWh (plus delivery fees); and supplement it with a smaller solar array to provide my own solar energy from April- September, I may be further ahead financially....

 

[Steve_S]

I've heard pretty good things about Desjardins.
The nice thing about using LFP batteries is you can add more over time without any issues. Not at all like Lead Acid.... The caveat being you need enough charging power to support the bank, so it is all relative.

5000 Watt's of solar with proper angle & alignment can support about 250A Charging for a 48V bank. BUT that is at optimum time for the specific settings if fixed mount. Tracking solar is "nutz, don't go there". Given you are going on a roof, the angle & directions will not be optimal. East-West arrays can work really well and there are some fun tricks to tweak them out.

There is a REALLY Big thing to consider few think of... Many panels do not handle shade well while others do far better with shade & cloud. I have some older Poly 60 Cell panels, that even if one part is shaded, the panel doesn't produce. I also have some new Q-Cell split cell panels, they are multi-string internally, so any "part string" that is shaded is bypassed and the rest of the strings in the panel continue to produce. (simplified, sorry). Far too many people look at How many watts they can get for the cheapest cost, not realizing they may be ambushing their own system without considering the environment the panels have to work in. For us in Ontario where snow covering also a miserable issue for panels. My 45 degree ground mount often needs a hand to shed the snow... "ruckus stuckus frickus frukus" especially when it's -30 ! (I'm near Algonquin Park).

 

[Brett V]

I don't think so... our net metering here is 1kWh:1kWh....I believe excess kWh I consume would be billed at a fairly high rate.

- I would need a very large solar array - ~16KW to maybe produce 80% of the energy I consume..... due to our gray winters, and my neighbor also has a few mature trees that will shade a portion of our roof in the afternoon....

- If I can buy electricity overnight at 2.8¢/kWh (plus delivery fees); and supplement it with a smaller solar array to provide my own solar energy from April- September, I may be further ahead financially....

Yeah, that's a shame they are doing that. I'm in Pennsylvania and we still have true NET metering. I have a 9 kw roof mount and SolarEdge system that offsets about 90% of my annual usage. It's great if you aren't looking for backup power when the grid is down.

 

[petee_c]

with ULO (ultra low overnight 11pm-7am - 7 days/week) I think the 2.8¢/kWh electricity is hard to beat....

i work from home so at least 1 EV is in the garage during weekdays, so if I get a smaller home battery, I can dump excess kWh into the car from the solar if the home battery for some reason is full. I have 80kWh (160kWh if wife's car is at home) of available storage parked in the garage... I typically have it between 50-80% SOC.

We are away at the lake most summer weekends (mid June to Labor Day), plus usually take a week or 2 vacation in the summer, so I would have to adjust the charging curve manually (hopefully remotely) for those days....

I do know that from of the solar quotes I got for net metering, it was a 10+ yr payback.... with the price of LiFePO4 DIY storage and load shifting, I think I can beat that...

If the neighbors trees get too tall, maybe they'll take them down at some point, and I can have more unshaded roof. at that time, I would be more willing to go for a larger array.

 

[Steve_S]

I do know that from of the solar quotes I got for net metering, it was a 10+ yr payback.... with the price of LiFePO4 DIY storage and load shifting, I think I can beat that...

That is the big crux of things right there. The cost of batteries has reached a point where ROI on a Grid Connected FIT install actually takes longer than if using battery & reducing what you are actually pulling from the grid. Then there are folk like me, who built a house off the beaten path, Hydro is 1km & $75K away & staying put where it is, as my solar, cost me less than 1/3 of that... Now I am not a power-hog either due to the high efficiency build etc I get away with an average of 4 kWh per day and have a 45kWh battery bank. If I can get the right EV for me, that would be added / serviced via V2H/V2L.

Sure feels GREAT to not have to pay Hydro One Hostage fees !

 

[petee_c]

spoke w battery connect, they offered me free shipping to Niagara Falls NY, (about 2 hrs away plus border crossing) so I can pick up 8 cases of the cells to make a 48v -560Ah battery pack.

Trying to figure out cycle life of the cells. I know I shouldnt use 100% of the cells.

The info on the web claims 4000+ cycles for LFP. what happens on the 4001 cycle?

If my calculations are correct, I should save about $90-100 cdn per month on my electricity bill if I just do load shifting. That's a ROI of 4yrs and 4 months....

80% down to 20% gets me about 16kWh
can I stretch it to 90% down to 15% - that would get me 20kWh - how many cycles would that be? can I stretch it out to 15yrs?

Below is a chart of 2 days energy usage(Jan 9 &10th), including charging the EV starting at 11:10pm (33kWh added to the car).

The data on the right is if I move to ULO rates, the data on the left is my current TOU rates.

Best bang for the buck is to get rid of the red Peak rates on the left (4pm-9pm daily). 19kWh @ 28.6¢/kWh over 2 days.
The next priority would be to get rid of as much of the yellow Mid Peak as possible (7am-4pm&9pm-11pm) that was 43.5kWh@12.2¢/kWh over 2 days.





so if that was a typical weekday, if I have enough battery capacity it would be loadshifting 9.5kWh of Peak rate power, and ~22kWh of midpeak electricity/day.

I save $0.26/kWh of Peak rate power I can move to the battery and $0.094/kWh I can move to the battery. As you can see, moving the Peak power is best bang for the buck.

If I keep the battery in the 80-20 SOC, i can move all the peak power and 6.5kWh of the midpeak usage to the battery. saving about $0.26*9.5 + $0.094*6.5 / weekday. $3.08/day (weekday)

In the summer, there is the potential to save more if I add a small solar array, depending on the cost of the array, and if I can get any government grants for it. I believe there are grants for a 5kW array.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

One train of thought that I got from folks when doing mine (for US) is that if you use all UL/ETL boxes, conduit, breakers, equipment - then there's no basis to look closely for a denial if something burns. Obviously, a DIY battery bank (like mine) is not UL/ETL but everything else (Charge Controllers, Inverters, ATSs, UPSs, boxes, wiring, breakers) is. These days, some of these rack mount 5kwh box batteries are UL/ETL as well.

So maybe go UL/ETL + to code. This would also help if you sell you're property.

My battery bank is under low stress and good BMS'ing with safety shunt-trips so it's lower on my list of concerns for fire. The worst event I've had over 6 years was an electrician's wiring where he use a butt-joint in a metal connection box that arced and burnt thru over several days. Good thing it was in a UL metal box to code and didn't start a fire.

 

[TomC4306]

80% down to 20% gets me about 16kWh
can I stretch it to 90% down to 15% - that would get me 20kWh - how many cycles would that be? can I stretch it out to 15yrs?

Watch this..

 

[petee_c]

Watch this..

I watched that video....

He's saying charge to 98%(3.4V) and discharge down to 5%(3.1V).... or basically use 93% of the battery and not worry about cycles? - is that the message?

 

[Partimewages]

Andy says it will age out before it cycles out. 3.000 to 3.400 is the working voltage 0-100%. If you stay there you won't stress the pack.

 

[TomC4306]

I watched that video....

He's saying charge to 98%(3.4V) and discharge down to 5%(3.1V).... or basically use 93% of the battery and not worry about cycles? - is that the message?

One cycle is defined as fully charged to fully depleted to fully charged again.
100% to 0% to 100%.
So, 100 to 50 back to 100 X2 = one cycle.

 

[Oldphile]

Many jurisdictions require UL9540. Obviously DIY batteries aren't UL9540. If your DIY batteries caught fire, would your insurance cover damages?

 

[SparkyJJO]

Many jurisdictions require UL9540. Obviously DIY batteries aren't UL9540. If your DIY batteries caught fire, would your insurance cover damages?

There is a lot of crap from Amazon that is not UL listed that people buy and use. If that caused a fire, and insurance didn't cover, there'd be mass pitchforks, because not everyone has any clue about UL stuff. I mean, how many cheap power banks are out on Amazon, battery scooters, etc, that are most certainly NOT UL or ETL and they blow up spectacularly because they have terrible quality and are NMC based?

I'm willing to be most DIY LFP banks are safer than these cheap scooters out there.