Lux off grid - 36" range options

[l00semarble]

I'm building a luxury off grid house in Costa Rica. We are getting close to time to pick appliances. This is not a frugal living situation but we do need to be smart about power. The original plan calls for a 36" range which we planned to get in "dual fuel" with gas burners and electric oven.

We have competing pro/cons. Obviously to cook with all electric we need more PV input and more batteries and inverters sized appropriately. Cooking with propane takes some of the load off the solar/battery/inverter system but we have to haul bottles to the house as there is no gas service or delivery option. The idea of being totally energy independent making ALL our power is better but heating anything is such a heavy consumption that taking it off the electric side makes solar success easier. (for the record we will have grid back up so the worst case scenario is close the utility main and buy some kwh if necessary.)

So we are shopping appliances and considering Thermador for several reasons including we really like their refrigeration options. They have promos if you do all Thermador appliances so I was then looking at their ranges.

They have an interesting 36" range option with 4 gas burners and 1/3 of the top is an induction module. The marketed benefits are faster boiling, precise control, oversized heating area, etc. But....since I plan to be on a solar/battery system it would be pretty cool to be able to make a decision about whether to cook with gas or electric depending on solar/battery conditions. I think the appliance looks unusual though which is a drawback.

Anybody ever consider anything like this? Thoughts?

 

[zanydroid]

Have you put an energy monitor on your kitchen before? I have all electric kitchen (including induction) with many appliances I use in parallel and I can tell you that the total energy per day is not a big deal. It is less than my home office, networking equipment, fridge and freezer, all of which are constant low loads vs the high short loads of a kitchen

It behooves you to get some numbers behind this

Sometimes the total power can be a lot though if you are preheating ovens or broiling while also cooking something on stove top.

 

[zanydroid]

This is my YTD KWh.

K1, K2, K3, oven and cooktop are the kitchen. Used daily for two meals a day.

Balance is probably like 40% dishwasher

 

[SilverbackMP]

Have you put an energy monitor on your kitchen before? I have all electric kitchen (including induction) with many appliances I use in parallel and I can tell you that the total energy per day is not a big deal. It is less than my home office, networking equipment, fridge and freezer, all of which are constant low loads vs the high short loads of a kitchen

It behooves you to get some numbers behind this

Sometimes the total power can be a lot though if you are preheating ovens or broiling while also cooking something on stove top.

Been watching a guy on YouTube who has make up air for his range hood and a 6000 watt heater for that make up air. I figure with all burners on his induction stove going, both electric wall ovens going, plus range hood and make up air going at full tilt, he’s using around 110A @ 240v. Granted you wouldn’t be doing this regularly (holidays, canning season, maybe hunting season if you cold pack), but there are times you’d want it. That would require a hell of a system and a hell of battery pack…especially in northern altitudes during the holidays.

 

[Checkthisout]

Can you get a hybrid stove top with both induction and gas like they have for new RV's

 

[zanydroid]

Been watching a guy on YouTube who has make up air for his range hood and a 6000 watt heater for that make up air.

If you are in a cold place and really need all that CFM, then yes you need 6kW of heating.

I’m in a mild climate and I have a fairly efficient capture setup so I can get away with less CFM and no make up air heating.

I figure with all burners on his induction stove going, both electric wall ovens going, plus range hood and make up air going at full tilt, he’s using around 110A @ 240v. Granted you wouldn’t be doing this regularly (holidays, canning season, maybe hunting season if you cold pack), but there are times you’d want it. That would require a hell of a system and a hell of battery pack…especially in northern altitudes during the holidays.

Yes, if you’re cooking like a commercial kitchen or have multiple fast people cooking you have a higher chance of hitting 110A. My numbers are for a single medium fast home cook. And I preheat things when I’m close to ready to toss in the oven to save electricity.

All burners on an induction cooktop at full requires like 8 arms to manage and avoid burning unless you’re talking about boiling for canning / making a crap ton of soup/stock. If you’re just simmering, braising, pressure cooking some stuff on side burners while sautéing stuff no way you’re going to max out the 40-50A of an induction cooktop.

For the 110A situation, if you’re on-grid you can do those things when the power is up.

I still don’t think you’ll need a huge battery pack though. You’re not constantly boiling stuff on all burners for an hour.

 

[SilverbackMP]

If you are in a cold place and really need all that CFM, then yes you need 6kW of heating.

I’m in a mild climate and I have a fairly efficient capture setup so I can get away with less CFM and no make up air heating.

Yes, if you’re cooking like a commercial kitchen or have multiple fast people cooking you have a higher chance of hitting 110A. My numbers are for a single medium fast home cook. And I preheat things when I’m close to ready to toss in the oven to save electricity.

All burners on an induction cooktop at full requires like 8 arms to manage and avoid burning unless you’re talking about boiling for canning / making a crap ton of soup/stock. If you’re just simmering, braising, pressure cooking some stuff on side burners while sautéing stuff no way you’re going to max out the 40-50A of an induction cooktop.

For the 110A situation, if you’re on-grid you can do those things when the power is up.

I still don’t think you’ll need a huge battery pack though. You’re not constantly boiling stuff on all burners for an hour.

On my own setup (offgrid) I have just shy of 100 amps (SMA system with 100 KWH of battery) that needs to supply my shop and my mom’s house (all gas and wood) and a few other out buildings. Though I am making provisions to install a big assed Victron system should I need it and just use the SMA system to supply 30-50 AMPs to the Victron system as a sort of grid replacement when needed. At least I’m leaning Victron…the ability to start out with a couple of very big inverters (which can also AC couple and has two AC inputs) along with being stackable is pushing me towards them.

Grid power is 1.25 miles away.

The shop will also have a commercial style kitchen. Think canning and meat processing and not Joanna Gains. Wish I had put in floor drains in that part of the building…I had…scope creep and “good idea fairies” floating about during construction.

Now I need a second shop lol (probably smaller for woodworking stuff as I already have big and expensive vehicle doors in the first build). And another building which will be a big assed greenhouse).

And then my own future house, but I was already figuring on a separate system for it.

 

[l00semarble]

Can you get a hybrid stove top with both induction and gas like they have for new RV's

That is exactly what I was seeing as an option with the particular range I asked about. This option makes it interesting giving my situation.

 

[l00semarble]

Have you put an energy monitor on your kitchen before? I have all electric kitchen (including induction) with many appliances I use in parallel and I can tell you that the total energy per day is not a big deal. It is less than my home office, networking equipment, fridge and freezer, all of which are constant low loads vs the high short loads of a kitchen

It behooves you to get some numbers behind this

Sometimes the total power can be a lot though if you are preheating ovens or broiling while also cooking something on stove top.

All induction is an option as well, even staying with Thermador brand 36" range. I can see the advantages but for some reason lizard brain/caveman wants to cook with fire.

Really modern induction has many advantages. And now that I think about it there is another huge advantage:

In our house in Costa Rica (our current house as well as our new build) we have the house entirely open with huge window/door openings. We don't use HVAC and the name of the game is to get air to flow through the house which in a well designed house it works very well. We also use ceiling fans at mid to high settings nearly 24/7 in high traffic areas like kitchen. This actually presents a problem when cooking on our gas range. The airflow causes the flame to be "knocked down" a bit causing slow and uneven heating of the pan. Often I have to close the window in the kitchen when cooking or the fire just doesn't work right. It sucks to close windows so now that I am thinking about it induction solves that problem as well.

 

[Checkthisout]

All induction is an option as well, even staying with Thermador brand 36" range. I can see the advantages but for some reason lizard brain/caveman wants to cook with fire.

Really modern induction has many advantages. And now that I think about it there is another huge advantage:

In our house in Costa Rica (our current house as well as our new build) we have the house entirely open with huge window/door openings. We don't use HVAC and the name of the game is to get air to flow through the house which in a well designed house it works very well. We also use ceiling fans at mid to high settings nearly 24/7 in high traffic areas like kitchen. This actually presents a problem when cooking on our gas range. The airflow causes the flame to be "knocked down" a bit causing slow and uneven heating of the pan. Often I have to close the window in the kitchen when cooking or the fire just doesn't work right. It sucks to close windows so now that I am thinking about it induction solves that problem as well.




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Yeah.

If you have good solar and a good budget, I would go induction and have a camp stove as backup.

As far as the oven portion, I think it would be better if it was gas/propane since it's going to be far less efficient with its electrical draw but if you don't do much with the oven it doesn't matter.

Lots of oven tasks can be accomplished with air fryers or countertop toaster ovens as well. Even outdoor BBQs.

 

[glandpuck]

Well my thoughts:

Not going to use batteries to cook with that size oven. The technology is not yet there in a cost effective manner. An oven is not a heat pump (120 volt heat pump hot water heaters ideal for solar). However, there are alternatives. When the pioneering days of the USA were in full force, people tended to cook with wood burning stoves. I strongly suggest you consider a modern wood burning stove that uses logs or pellets (see how people do it in remote section in Canada and Alaska). Save the propane for skillets and pots. The next alternative would be to use a high quality efficient do everything counter top oven. Many have a good capacity for things like chicken, roasts, pizza etc. They broil, bake, air fry and convection cook. And they plug into a 120 volt outlet and use no more that 13-18 amps tops. And lastly, if you have a good cooking wood source in your area, I would go that route and maybe even try to grow some sustainable hard woods for future use down the road.

 

[l00semarble]

Well my thoughts:

Not going to use batteries to cook with that size oven. The technology is not yet there in a cost effective manner. An oven is not a heat pump (120 volt heat pump hot water heaters ideal for solar). However, there are alternatives. When the pioneering days of the USA were in full force, people tended to cook with wood burning stoves. I strongly suggest you consider a modern wood burning stove that uses logs or pellets (see how people do it in remote section in Canada and Alaska). Save the propane for skillets and pots. The next alternative would be to use a high quality efficient do everything counter top oven. Many have a good capacity for things like chicken, roasts, pizza etc. They broil, bake, air fry and convection cook. And they plug into a 120 volt outlet and use no more that 13-18 amps tops. And lastly, if you have a good cooking wood source in your area, I would go that route and maybe even try to grow some sustainable hard woods for future use down the road.

This is the tropics. Not realistically going to consider a wood burning stove in my contemporary tropical beach house LOL. If I were in Canada or Alaska, then yeah absolutely but I hope to never had to live in such a climate (no offense to those who like it....just my preference. )

Oven use will be tough on the batteries for sure. But we do have grid available....i just don't want to rely on it as unstable and expensive. But if we have to bake 10 dozen cookies for some reason I can turn on the breaker from the grid and buy some kwh if necessary.

 

[zanydroid]

Oh right in a hot climate the induction helps in a lot of ways.

You are allowed to run with less CFM in the extractor which helps with HVAC.

Gas "wastes" about 50% of the energy when cooking, and that energy goes into your room heating it up. How much of a "waste" it is depends on what kind of cooking you do. If you're doing cooking where you need heat up the side of the pan then it's not as much of a waste.

While induction only wastes 10% or so of the power in the appliance itself. The rest of the "waste" heat is simply inherent to heating up stuff for cooking, which will be the same whether it's gas or induction.

A 24" wall oven "only" uses 2-3kW of electricity, though you aren't baking 120 cookies with something that small.

 

[zanydroid]

If I was going dual induction/gas b/c of a strong affinity to gas, I would probably do 66% induction burners and 33% gas burners. Esp in a hot climate, that just seems like a better allocation of real estate.

Another option is radiant + induction. If an objection to induction is based on needing traditional cookware that inherently cannot be induction compatible (like earthenware). I believe radiant generates less waste heat than gas and it avoids the indoor air pollution of gas. But it doesn't have the vibe that gas has, nor can you do gas-only things like toasting peppers etc directly on the gas flames.

 

[Checkthisout]

If I was going dual induction/gas b/c of a strong affinity to gas, I would probably do 66% induction burners and 33% gas burners. Esp in a hot climate, that just seems like a better allocation of real estate.

Another option is radiant + induction. If an objection to induction is based on needing traditional cookware that inherently cannot be induction compatible (like earthenware). I believe radiant generates less waste heat than gas and it avoids the indoor air pollution of gas. But it doesn't have the vibe that gas has, nor can you do gas-only things like toasting peppers etc directly on the gas flames.

I was thinking he would want gas as backup in case if inverter failure or low battery juice or whatever.

 

[glandpuck]

If in the tropics, why not just get a solar oven or dig a hole in the ground and cook a pig luau style?

 

[Checkthisout]

If in the tropics, why not just get a solar oven or dig a hole in the ground and cook a pig luau style?

Everyday for dinner, whole pig?

 

[Quattrohead]

You would be surprised how little power you actually use for cooking, I've never seen more than 80 amps in our Florida home and that was a test. Electric oven and one or two rings to cook a meal is actually quite easily done.
Invest a little more in your system and go 100% electric.

 

[zanydroid]

You would be surprised how little power you actually use for cooking, I've never seen more than 80 amps in our Florida home and that was a test. Electric oven and one or two rings to cook a meal is actually quite easily done.
Invest a little more in your system and go 100% electric.

You need a lot of power but not so much energy. Just enough battery Kwh capacity to handle the C rate corresponding to peak power.

Can't use surge power for a lot of cooking situations unfortunately. Since you will be heating at that level for longer than surge. My personal rule of thumb is a lot of peak loads in kitchen will go for maybe 10min

 

[jtvt]

I've been using a Wolf stove off-grid for 23+ years. It's gas burners including oven. What I've noticed in new high end gas stoves is the top burners are not equivalent which is annoying for me. On my Wolf, which is ~25 years old, all top burners do super low simmer and high. Nowdays, they typically make one burner meant for quick boil that can't do simmer and one that only can do simmer to medium-high. The positives for gas top and electric oven is that typically the total BTU of the top burners is higher than the BTU of a gas top with a gas oven. I'm guessing that is because the gas lines limit total BTU and a gas oven takes away from the top burners. I used to think temperature control in the electric was better, but I don't think that is a concern anymore. Maybe that was the case with cheaper units with smaller burners.

A gas oven uses a good amount of power too unless the oven has piezo ignition(which is super rare). Turning on the oven allows power to flow to igniter which is essentially like a coil that gets red hot. When it gets hot enough to ignite the gas, the resistance of the ignitor drops and allows current to flow to the gas valve, thereby turning on the gas. So that coil has to stay electrified in order for the burner to stay on. The thermostat on the oven regulates temp by turning on/off the igniter.

Maybe there is middle ground using a gas top, gas oven with convection.

IMO, I'd never cook with electric even if I was on grid. I do have a counter top Breville smart oven which is just a large toaster oven which I do use sometimes. I do get some LED light flicker using it sometimes as it moderates juice to the elements. The other thing I use, is an outdoor grill (Weber Summit) as something to grill on and as a oven. In summer in the heat I totally take advantage of that. You can totally use it as an oven and avoid any electrical use. I've baked thinks like lasagna in pyrex on it no problem. Just set it up for indirect grilling and it works great. Plus you don't get oven heat in the house.