Should not need a chargeverter, assuming The One is able to use our "noisy" portable generator. Midnite says it can handle these generators better than most, so I am counting on/hoping for it. FWIW my old Trace SW4024 accepts my generator power just fine, so hopefully The One will too. Should be able to charge from the genny, as well as power some loads (though with a small genny, some load shedding will need to be done no doubt).Same generator for me. I had to roll it out last week. Nice thing is the wire's already run, I can likely remove the manual transfer switch/breakers.
With a generator input, would this not need a chargeverter? It'd be solely to keep batteries topped in my case.
Need to figure out how this would be wired up for what I want. This has some really interesting options.
Oy, when their batteries are ready, guess it's time to add to the national debt.
Midnite Solar Announced their new 10kw AIO at Intersolar Today
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timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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Another benefit from using a separate charger.
Thanks Adam. I think I understand the setup and standard options for the 3 240VAC breakers. What I was thinking is I don't really need 60A of generator input and could use more than 50A of output to my second load panel. It may be more trouble than it is worth, but if I could get another 10A to the panel by switching the CBs, I would do that.
Seems like it would be a simple process, since those CBs are easily removable, just swap their positions when putting them back in. Of course, the control relay for the 50A would need to be sized to handle 60A (which it may already be), and the FW would need to be happy as well.
Anyone happen to notice the current rating on the 50A CB's relay? is it the same as the 60A relay (or otherwise high enough to handle 60A)?
Hm. I need to keep researching. I do need to be isolated, I'm doing this in stages. First pass is time of use - our super off peak is 25% the cost of on peak and we use a lot of power. I also want critical load backup, we've started having some outages I don't like. I'll never be completely off grid and don't care. Solar panels probably next year, but I guess we'll see where the tariff thing goes.
timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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Always best to do the research and planning first. Before you spend any money.
It saves you from buying things that won't actually do what you need.
Hedges
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How does on-peak rate of the time-of-use tariff compare to non-time-of-use rates?
What are the rates?
Sounds like an AC battery could help.
Indiana electric rates average $0.16/kWh. Sounds like a battery may not help.
Electricity Cost in Indiana: 2024 Electric Rates | EnergySage
How much does electricity cost in Indiana? Learn what average electric rates and electric bills looks like in Indiana.
www.energysage.com
To actually charge a battery off-peak, operate from battery on-peak requires inverter able to supply all loads and starting surges. It should let you do everything without utility involvement.
An AC coupled battery, whether Tesla Powerwall or any other that is grid-interactive (blends its power with the grid) is easier to size, and cheaper. But because it operates in parallel with the grid, must have certain UL listings like 1741 (maybe -SA, -SB) and requires utility permission to operate. This is probably the best way to go.
The AC coupled battery can also provide backup to select critical loads, which would be wired downstream.
Tesla's newest Powerwall is a hybrid, optional PV input. It uses an external transfer switch which could be whole-house or just for select protected loads.
SolArk, EG4 18kpv, Midnight The One, Sunny Boy Smart Energy (and probably quite a few others) are options.
EG4 PowerPro battery costs $0.05/kWh (amortized over its cycle life). Paired with EG4 18kPV, $0.10/kWh. Buy electricity off-peak, and you may be close to the original $0.16/kWh. No savings. Two batteries with one inverter, $0.075/kWh.
Tesla PowerWall, I think 2x the EG4 cost.
You have to pencil out everything.
And my estimates assume battery lives its 6000 cycle claimed life, no costs for repairing anything, public utilities commission doesn't pull the rug out from under you (hint: they will.)
Just move to a state like California or Hawaii, then you can enjoy the savings PV and batteries can provide. And the weather. And the politics and taxes and general cost of living.
InTheHills
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I dont think that math works out. Before tax credit the more expensive eg4 rack battery is $1300. 7000 cycles to a 20% reduction in capacity. I think that is 3.6 cents per kWh. After credits that is near 2 cents per kWh.
But the other factor is a known fixed cost. One other thing is certain, power company prices will not come down over the next decade.
Hedges
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Your numbers look correct, but start with a UL listed ESS. Still comes to about the same place.
This one is $3599, 14.3kWh, 8000 cycles to 80% DoD, works out to $0.039
Sale price, when $4049 it came to $0.044, so my original $0.05/kWh isn't far off. Add California sales tax and it still a nickel.
Then add an inverter of course.
(I haven't factored in the decline in capacity, either.)
signaturesolar.com
Utility power prices won't come down, but they may shift more of the cost to something you can't escape like fixed fees.
They will reduce the value of your PV and eventually of your battery.
Make sure you get a short ROI, or it won't ever.
This one is $3599, 14.3kWh, 8000 cycles to 80% DoD, works out to $0.039
Sale price, when $4049 it came to $0.044, so my original $0.05/kWh isn't far off. Add California sales tax and it still a nickel.
Then add an inverter of course.
(I haven't factored in the decline in capacity, either.)
EG4 PowerPro WallMount AllWeather Lithium Battery | 48V 280Ah | 14.3kWh LiFePO4 | All-Weather Energy Storage | UL1973, UL9540A | 10-Year Warranty
EG4 PowerPro WallMount AllWeather Lithium Battery | 48V 280Ah | 14.3kWh LiFePO4 | All-Weather Energy Storage | UL1973, UL9540A
signaturesolar.com
Utility power prices won't come down, but they may shift more of the cost to something you can't escape like fixed fees.
They will reduce the value of your PV and eventually of your battery.
Make sure you get a short ROI, or it won't ever.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
You may be able to jump them through hard conduit to a AFCI/GFCI receptacle, and then from there to the loads.
InTheHills
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Why go to the most expensive (per kWh) eg4 battery? I guess it doesnt matter.Your numbers look correct, but start with a UL listed ESS. Still comes to about the same place.
This one is $3599, 14.3kWh, 8000 cycles to 80% DoD, works out to $0.039
Sale price, when $4049 it came to $0.044, so my original $0.05/kWh isn't far off. Add California sales tax and it still a nickel.
Then add an inverter of course.
(I haven't factored in the decline in capacity, either.)
EG4 PowerPro WallMount AllWeather Lithium Battery | 48V 280Ah | 14.3kWh LiFePO4 | All-Weather Energy Storage | UL1973, UL9540A | 10-Year Warranty
EG4 PowerPro WallMount AllWeather Lithium Battery | 48V 280Ah | 14.3kWh LiFePO4 | All-Weather Energy Storage | UL1973, UL9540A
Utility power prices won't come down, but they may shift more of the cost to something you can't escape like fixed fees.
They will reduce the value of your PV and eventually of your battery.
Make sure you get a short ROI, or it won't ever.
Ill just say yup youre right and hope we can get back to the MNS AIO.
Thanks for the detailed reply!How does on-peak rate of the time-of-use tariff compare to non-time-of-use rates?
What are the rates?
Sounds like an AC battery could help.
Indiana electric rates average $0.16/kWh. Sounds like a battery may not help.
Electricity Cost in Indiana: 2024 Electric Rates | EnergySage
How much does electricity cost in Indiana? Learn what average electric rates and electric bills looks like in Indiana.
To actually charge a battery off-peak, operate from battery on-peak requires inverter able to supply all loads and starting surges. It should let you do everything without utility involvement.
An AC coupled battery, whether Tesla Powerwall or any other that is grid-interactive (blends its power with the grid) is easier to size, and cheaper. But because it operates in parallel with the grid, must have certain UL listings like 1741 (maybe -SA, -SB) and requires utility permission to operate. This is probably the best way to go.
The AC coupled battery can also provide backup to select critical loads, which would be wired downstream.
Tesla's newest Powerwall is a hybrid, optional PV input. It uses an external transfer switch which could be whole-house or just for select protected loads.
SolArk, EG4 18kpv, Midnight The One, Sunny Boy Smart Energy (and probably quite a few others) are options.
EG4 PowerPro battery costs $0.05/kWh (amortized over its cycle life). Paired with EG4 18kPV, $0.10/kWh. Buy electricity off-peak, and you may be close to the original $0.16/kWh. No savings. Two batteries with one inverter, $0.075/kWh.
Tesla PowerWall, I think 2x the EG4 cost.
You have to pencil out everything.
And my estimates assume battery lives its 6000 cycle claimed life, no costs for repairing anything, public utilities commission doesn't pull the rug out from under you (hint: they will.)
Just move to a state like California or Hawaii, then you can enjoy the savings PV and batteries can provide. And the weather. And the politics and taxes and general cost of living.
Indeed, not in CA. So, peak hours on my utility are $0.2105/kwh. Off peak is about half, I forget, around $0.12. 11pm-5am is $0.05xx. Based on the power company and my Emporia, we average about 75kwh/day in the summer. About 60ish in the winter. That doesn't count my pole barn, but it has its own 200A service.
ROI here is peace of mind. I'd like to offset a bit, and you're right, I don't know if it would ever break even. Having something for critical load backup and the brownouts we've had recently would be worthwhile for us. I depend on a well and sump pump. Already have a heat pump water heater. But you've definitely made me think about redoing a spreadsheet I started awhile ago.
My utility is a local co-op. They're not too bad. They just put smart meters on though, and I'm wondering if they're going to switch to peak demand type billing (not sure I phrased that correctly). However, I *really* do not want to deal with them. I don't want to sell back. Don't want a Tesla Powerwall or any of that either. Too expensive. The piece I want to make very sure about is not backfeeding anything. If/when I install panels, I still have to permit that. And for some reason, the county wants to know if the panels and inverter are UL listed. That's beyond the scope of this thread/topic though.
The Midnite has caught my eye because of some of the built in ability to program load shedding, etc. Its specs are the closest for what I want. My perception is it will have good reliability, decent price point, and has UL certs. Still waiting to see what info comes out here in the next month or so. Not in a rush.
Hedges
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Will Midnight The One allow us to charge battery from PV, then force backfeed into the grid during super-peak?
(I ask this because Sunny Boy Storage used to let me use this undocumented, unsupported function by entering a negative number. But after firmware update to fix other issues, only positive numbers are accepted by the GUI.)
California's NEM 3.0, "Solar Billing Plan", expects us to use batteries for zero export, zero import most of the time.
And it expects us to help support the grid during the Duck's Head period early evening.
Specifically, we get credit between $3.00 and $4.00 between 7:00 and 9:00 PM in September, and $1.00/kWh for one hour per day in August.
It is important to customers, because those couple hours per day let us bank credits giving us about 10 kWh for night time and winter use, for each kWh we provide during super-peak.
Does (or will) The One let us discharge battery into grid during selected dates and hours?
(As part of a UL Listed ESS together with battery, and probably PCS on CEC website.)
@Robin Gudgel
@HighTechLab
(I ask this because Sunny Boy Storage used to let me use this undocumented, unsupported function by entering a negative number. But after firmware update to fix other issues, only positive numbers are accepted by the GUI.)
California's NEM 3.0, "Solar Billing Plan", expects us to use batteries for zero export, zero import most of the time.
And it expects us to help support the grid during the Duck's Head period early evening.
Specifically, we get credit between $3.00 and $4.00 between 7:00 and 9:00 PM in September, and $1.00/kWh for one hour per day in August.
It is important to customers, because those couple hours per day let us bank credits giving us about 10 kWh for night time and winter use, for each kWh we provide during super-peak.
Does (or will) The One let us discharge battery into grid during selected dates and hours?
(As part of a UL Listed ESS together with battery, and probably PCS on CEC website.)
@Robin Gudgel
@HighTechLab
HighTechLab
AKA Dexter - CTO of Current Connected, LLC
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Yes it can do this. Just schedule what time you want to export/zero/export and at what rate.
This is an important feature, is there a thread on this site that lists hybrid inverters that may have the ability to program when to allow export under TOU plans?
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Here, you go, a thread on the topic:
diysolarforum.com
Which hybrid/AIO/battery inverters allow programed export time under TOU plans?
Those of us going under California's NEM 3.0 (Solar Billing Plan) will want to use battery to shave imports and exports much of the time, to avoid earning about $0.02/kWh credit for exports one minute and then paying $0.40/kWh for imports the next. But the plan also pays large credits for a few...
diysolarforum.com
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