Need to run offgrid water well pumps commercially, daily

[fastline]

In trying to keep this simple I will just say we are doing some commercial plant growing, and need to pump water from relatively shallow cased water wells. Watering needs are daily and I realize generators will be needed as a supplement but looking to drive the majority with solar. Getting grid power to all sites is not practical. The issue with single phase is the super sweet inrush they need. I have been trying to find 3P pumps, but those are very not common.

Basically we need to run a 1HP pump with authority for about 1-2 hrs/day, but that is very likely to extend if well and system can handle it. With all efficiency factors in there, the actual draw is closer to 2000W

The main issue with 1P is I know well that they are very hard starting across the line and usually takes a pretty hard hit.

 

[Ampster]

The main issue with 1P is I know well that they are very hard starting across the line and usually takes a pretty hard hit.

There are plenty of inverter driven pumps that take 240 volt single phase input. Some of those are multifrequency and because of that they have a soft start. Grundfos is a well respected manufacturer. A lot depends on how deep the water level is.

 

[v_green57]

So, can you get all the water you need when the sun is out?

Dump AC pumps and use Grundfos SQF series. MPPT built-in and
running directly off panels.

 

[fastline]

We can't really rely solely on solar. Many shady days will require assistance.

As for pump requirements pumping ft of head will be around 60 while running, and about an additional 15-20psi on the delivery side. I am very perfectly content to switch directions with equipment as long as we can maintain an emergency backup of running with a generator. doubtful any system will require more than a 1HP pump due to delivered pressure, well depth, and actual GPM the wells can even produce. This is why I would really like the versatility of a 3P pump, but I am finding those almost non-existent. I do have a 1P franklin variable drive unit here but Franklin is all hush about how their system works so I would have to test and test more to even understand it, but is 1P output.

 

[v_green57]

We can't really rely solely on solar. Many shady days will require assistance.

As for pump requirements pumping ft of head will be around 60 while running, and about an additional 15-20psi on the delivery side. I am very perfectly content to switch directions with equipment as long as we can maintain an emergency backup of running with a generator. doubtful any system will require more than a 1HP pump due to delivered pressure, well depth, and actual GPM the wells can even produce. This is why I would really like the versatility of a 3P pump, but I am finding those almost non-existent. I do have a 1P franklin variable drive unit here but Franklin is all hush about how their system works so I would have to test and test more to even understand it, but is 1P output.

The SQF series will run off AC as well. I have only done that once, when the engineer was determining my well yield to get my Certificate of Beneficial Use. That needed to be the max. GPM possible and I didn't want to reposition my array to get it.

Grundfos has a massive amt. of info online, and lots of design tools.

 

[v_green57]

Info:

SQFlex

Renewable energy submersible pumps with built in inverter for solar, wind and AC powersource. Runs on both AC and DC voltage.

product-selection.grundfos.com

Tools:

Size Page

Size page

product-selection.grundfos.com

 

[fastline]

Though those pumps look innovative, and I certainly appreciate the recommendation, but do have several concerns there. Mostly that it appears they are dunking an inverter controller in the hole, and making this a highly proprietary and expensive piece. As well, I don't see any pumps that can really move much water, probably because they have to limit that to ensure benchmarks at the lower power specifications.

 

[v_green57]

Okay. I guess we need to know how many GPD you need along with your info on well depth.

We were able to pump 30 GPM with an SQF (would need to dig through the archives for the model we used) from a static level of 90 feet with 750W for cattle watering.

I think. This is all from memory. I would need to dig up some info to be sure.

Anyway, it was a lot. We wound up backing the solar off to 250W so we wouldn't draw the well down to the point that the dry run contacts would kick the pump off.

 

[fastline]

This is where the specs and graphs do not present well because I don't see anything that can deliver over 8GPM, but we also know that should be highly dependent on lift.

But this might all be in vane because I don't think we are in the camp to spend $2500+ per pump to have an extremely proprietary pump with all sorts of electrics in the hole. This is pretty much why no one runs the Franklin variable stuff. Very expensive, proprietary, etc. All while basic 3P VFDs are everywhere and could drive a 3P pump motor with ease.

 

[SolarScott]

In trying to keep this simple I will just say we are doing some commercial plant growing, and need to pump water from relatively shallow cased water wells. Watering needs are daily and I realize generators will be needed as a supplement but looking to drive the majority with solar. Getting grid power to all sites is not practical. The issue with single phase is the super sweet inrush they need. I have been trying to find 3P pumps, but those are very not common.

Basically we need to run a 1HP pump with authority for about 1-2 hrs/day, but that is very likely to extend if well and system can handle it. With all efficiency factors in there, the actual draw is closer to 2000W

The main issue with 1P is I know well that they are very hard starting across the line and usually takes a pretty hard hit.

I'm using EG4 6000's to run my entire house which includes a single phase 220 one and half horse water well pumping from 180' deep.....never a problem starting or running.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

All while basic 3P VFDs are everywhere and could drive a 3P pump motor with ease.

Why don’t you do that?

Get some 3P pumps and VFDs and away you go.

Franklin and other 3P well pumps are going to be just as expensive as Grundfos.
Do you want to Use Solar or just Grid?

The Grundfos pumps are probably the best I have ever seen.
The controller resides on the surface not in the well.
They can easily produce the water you need.

Either way you go about it you will be spending some money.

If you really want to be creative then get cheap 1p pumps to pump slowly but continuously to a holding tank then use VFD and 3P pool pumps on the surface to distribute.

 

[Mattb4]

In trying to keep this simple I will just say we are doing some commercial plant growing, and need to pump water from relatively shallow cased water wells. Watering needs are daily and I realize generators will be needed as a supplement but looking to drive the majority with solar. Getting grid power to all sites is not practical. The issue with single phase is the super sweet inrush they need. I have been trying to find 3P pumps, but those are very not common.

Basically we need to run a 1HP pump with authority for about 1-2 hrs/day, but that is very likely to extend if well and system can handle it. With all efficiency factors in there, the actual draw is closer to 2000W

The main issue with 1P is I know well that they are very hard starting across the line and usually takes a pretty hard hit.

I have no experience with them but there are several purpose built AIO designed to run well pumps on the market. https://www.google.com/search?q=sol...AgAGeAYgBkwqSAQQwLjEwmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

Perhaps you can find something that meets your needs.

 

[TomC4306]

I'm considering this one in particular for my 25k gallon pool. AC (gen) and solar on a simple transfer switch.

SP2.2LS 2.2kW 2 and 3 PHASE Well Pump Inverter Single or 3 Phase selectable, Batteryless – Watts247 Wholesale

watts247.com

 

[OzSolar]

This is where the specs and graphs do not present well because I don't see anything that can deliver over 8GPM, but we also know that should be highly dependent on lift.

But this might all be in vane because I don't think we are in the camp to spend $2500+ per pump to have an extremely proprietary pump with all sorts of electrics in the hole. This is pretty much why no one runs the Franklin variable stuff. Very expensive, proprietary, etc. All while basic 3P VFDs are everywhere and could drive a 3P pump motor with ease.

We have around 20 Grundfos SQ style pumps in the field. Most of them are SQ Flex and a few have been in daily use for 20 years. No problems whatsoever other than a direct lightning strike to the well house which only took out the surface controller. Pump survived and is still running 5 years later.

Looks like you need around 90'-100' of head by the time you add the 15-20 PSI in.

30 GPM with 1.4 kW of solar. You can also feed it 90 to 240 VAC.

 

[v_green57]

Why don’t you do that?

Get some 3P pumps and VFDs and away you go.

Franklin and other 3P well pumps are going to be just as expensive as Grundfos.
Do you want to Use Solar or just Grid?

The Grundfos pumps are probably the best I have ever seen.
The controller resides on the surface not in the well.
They can easily produce the water you need.

Either way you go about it you will be spending some money.

If you really want to be creative then get cheap 1p pumps to pump slowly but continuously to a holding tank then use VFD and 3P pool pumps on the surface to distribute.

Grundfos MPPT electronics are in the pump. Their so called overpriced "controllers" are basically switches or transfer switches, or, in the case of the REALLY expensive one, a switch that can also read the codes transmitted up the cable from the pump.

You can run a SQF series pump with anything from 30VDC to 300V, and AC. I have run them with a couple panels laying on the ground and a length of wire connected to the submersible cable. No controller needed.

I built my own, with analog meters for voltage and current. I use a 12-hour wind-up spa timer to set the run time.

I second the "best" characterization. Expensive but worth it.

 

[v_green57]

Okay. I guess we need to know how many GPD you need along with your info on well depth.

We were able to pump 30 GPM with an SQF (would need to dig through the archives for the model we used) from a static level of 90 feet with 750W for cattle watering.

I think. This is all from memory. I would need to dig up some info to be sure.

Anyway, it was a lot. We wound up backing the solar off to 250W so we wouldn't draw the well down to the point that the dry run contacts would kick the pump off.

Went back through 2021 email and found the info on the last SQF we installed. Good thing I did as the numbers were somewhat less than what I stated earlier. The 30+ GPM was from a different install running off a generator.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"He is using the the Grundfos SQF 11-2 pump and four 315 watt solar panels wired in series.

Testing was done late afternoon about 1430, so performance of the pump will
likely be higher during the middle of the day when the sun is more directly
overhead.

Executive summary:

Static water level before testing = 117 ft. from top of casing

Pump depth is 160 ft.

Yield 5 gal. every 35 - 36 seconds

Pumped to depth of pump in 20 minutes - 160.74 ft.

Pump "dry run" sensor is not functioning. A mixture of water and air is pumped
when the 160 ft. point is reached.

Details:

119.5 ft. - 118 ft. / 40 sec.
118.12 ft - 119.8 ft. / 35 sec.
119.01 ft - 120.59 ft. / 36 sec.

117.28 ft. - 141.57 ft. at 10 minutes
141.57 ft. - 160.74 ft at 20 minutes

recovery from 160.74 ft. (pump not running and well casing filling)
5 min. - 145.77 ft.
10 min. - 118.65 ft.
26 min - 117.22 ft. (effectively back to static level - rate of recovery very
slow) 30 min - 117.15 ft."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The "dry run sensor not working" issue was due to water entering the casing above the pumping level and splashing down on the sensor. Fixed with a funnel mounted on the cable above the sensor.

Unfortunately, the yield of the very old well isn't very high. Due to miscommunication, we weren't able to rehab it for greater yield before the overenthusiastic rancher set the pump. Something for the future.

There is always a list of stuff to do.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Grundfos MPPT electronics are in the pump. Their so called overpriced "controllers" are basically switches or transfer switches, or, in the case of the REALLY expensive one, a switch that can also read the codes transmitted up the cable from the pump.

You can run a SQF series pump with anything from 30VDC to 300V, and AC. I have run them with a couple panels laying on the ground and a length of wire connected to the submersible cable. No controller needed.

I built my own, with analog meters for voltage and current. I use a 12-hour wind-up spa timer to set the run time.

I second the "best" characterization. Expensive but worth it.

I have SQE so perhaps that’s the difference.

 

[v_green57]

I have SQE so perhaps that’s the difference.

"The Grundfos CU301 when connected to the SQE pump the Grundfos CU301 provides intelligent control, allowing the pump to slow or speed up to meet your pumping needs while maintaining a constant pressure."

A-yup. That would do it...

 

[Nobodybusiness]

"The Grundfos CU301 when connected to the SQE pump the Grundfos CU301 provides intelligent control, allowing the pump to slow or speed up to meet your pumping needs while maintaining a constant pressure."

A-yup. That would do it...

Yup that’s my controller.

Good pump.

Constant pressure pump I believe.

 

[Warpspeed]

It sounds to me that the best option might be to just go with simpler lower cost single phase pumps, and accept the horrendous starting current.
Its then just a case of sizing a very robust inverter and battery to handle the surge power.
Your major investment will then be above ground where any future problems might be more easily addressed.