Newbie comment on rant

[upnorthandpersonal]

There are many others.

The only additional tax is VAT. What other tax is there? I don't have any other taxes that are not part of income tax/capital gains tax.

 

[Hedges]

Do you not pay property tax?

My mom was a public school teacher.
Before "Prop 13" passed in California, her property taxes had risen to exceed the mortgage payment.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Do you not pay property tax?

My mom was a public school teacher.
Before "Prop 13" passed in California, her property taxes had risen to exceed the mortgage payment.

Property taxes are tiny - absolute maximum 1% in Finland. In Norway, maximum 0.7%. That's on year basis - so a 200K€ property would pay at most 2000€ in property taxes a year in Finland (and from experience, it's less than that).

And in Sweden, new apartment blocks and family houses that that were built in or after 2012 are exempt from property tax for 15 years, and have a maximum of 0.75% in other cases.

Edit: take this place as an example. For sale for 2,290,000€, about an hour and half away from Helsinki and sits on 3.5 hectare of land at the shore:

Omakotitalo, Heinola, Vasikkasaari, 2 290 000 €, 208.5 m²

5 h + khh + sauna + erillinen autotallirakennus ja varasto. Löydä uusi kotisi Etuovi.comista jo tänään!

www.etuovi.com

Property tax (Kiinteistövero): 1116€

 

[Hedges]

1% of what you paid for your house, or of what your neighbor paid for his?

If a retiree or school teacher pays $100,000 for a house but rich neighbor moves in and pays $1,000,000 does grandma now have to pay $10,000/year taxes?

Under Prop 13, taxes are 1.2% of assessed value (plus local voter approved additions).
Assessed value is limited to 2% increase per year over purchase price.

A professor asked if it was fair that someone who bought a house so recently paid so much higher property tax.
I said, "If someone paid a higher price for their house they can pay more in taxes. Isn't that what liberals want?"

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

1% of what you paid for your house, or of what your neighbor paid for his?

The Tax assessed value of your property. See the example in my edit in the post above.

If a retiree or school teacher pays $100,000 for a house but rich neighbor moves in and pays $1,000,000 does grandma now have to pay $10,000/year taxes?

No, neighboring properties have nothing to do with it. Only the tax assessed value of that property, which can even be (much) lower than the actual sales price (again, see example above).

 

[Sanwizard]

Property taxes are tiny - absolute maximum 1% in Finland. In Norway, maximum 0.7%. That's on year basis - so a 200K€ property would pay at most 2000€ in property taxes a year in Finland (and from experience, it's less than that).

And in Sweden, new apartment blocks and family houses that that were built in or after 2012 are exempt from property tax for 15 years, and have a maximum of 0.75% in other cases.

I bet just one US social program is probably more than the entire Norway tax income. Medicare alone was $776,000,000,000 in 2020. The 2021 GDP of Norway was less than half that. The amount of money wasted on graft in the US is also probably higher than the GDP of most countries.
I just drove from South Carolina to New York last week. Tolls added up to close to $40. Gas tax is over $1.00 per gallon in democrat states. ($2.80 in South Carolina, $3.90 in NY).
If our government was not so corrupt, we could probably get by on a 10% tax, and the GDP would grow by 50-100%, and solve world hunger in the process.
Crap, the estimated cost of the over 2 million border crossers in 2020 is supposed to cost the US economy many billions. What a waste.

 

[Hedges]

Yes, you said a 200k assessed house is taxed at most 2000

If market/assessed value goes up 10x (high inflation), but teacher or retiree has pretty much fixed income, tax goes up 10x.
They haven't necessarily made any money, the house is just "worth" 10 times as many units of a currency worth 1/10th as much.

Here in the US, Social Security benefits are tied to inflation.
Therefore, around 1982, "inflation" was redefined, taking out the volatile food, housing, energy prices.
So for the past decade, official inflation (and social security benefit increases) have been in the zero to 2% range. While actual inflation and real estate assessments have raged at 8% to 10%

No, neighboring properties have nothing to do with it. Only the tax assessed value of that property, which can even be (much) lower than the actual sales price (again, see example above).

Your assessed values are often much lower than your purchase price? ?
What are they based on?
Ours are based on what similar properties recently sold for. Except where capped by prop 13.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Your assessed values are often much lower than your purchase price?

Yes - see the example. Here is another one:

Omakotitalo, Isokyrö, Isokyrö, 295 000 €, 155 m²

5h, k, s, khh. Löydä uusi kotisi Etuovi.comista jo tänään!

www.etuovi.com

Sales price: 295,000€, property tax: 680€/year.

And you can have a property next door that would sell for 500k€ and nothing would change. Forest has no property tax.

The calculation is based on the rules set in the "Act on Assessment of Assets" - I'll see if I can find a copy.

By the way, if the fair market value of a piece of real estate is lower than its assessed value, the fair market value is to be applied when determining the tax.

 

[Sanwizard]

Yes, you said a 200k assessed house is taxed at most 2000

If market/assessed value goes up 10x (high inflation), but teacher or retiree has pretty much fixed income, tax goes up 10x.
They haven't necessarily made any money, the house is just "worth" 10 times as many units of a currency worth 1/10th as much.

Here in the US, Social Security benefits are tied to inflation.
Therefore, around 1982, "inflation" was redefined, taking out the volatile food, housing, energy prices.
So for the past decade, official inflation (and social security benefit increases) have been in the zero to 2% range. While actual inflation and real estate assessments have raged at 8% to 10%



Your assessed values are often much lower than your purchase price? ?
What are they based on?
Ours are based on what similar properties recently sold for. Except where capped by prop 13.

You need to move to a free state. I am itching to get the HELL out of New York. The George Washington bridge toll alone is $15 each way. Then there is the Throgs Neck bridge toll, ($10.17 each way), and the NY thruway toll, and the NJ thruway toll, ($5.75) and the gas taxes($.98 per gallon). Its like the Mafia runs the government, and we just put up with it.

 

[Sanwizard]

You need to move to a free state. I am itching to get the HELL out of New York. The George Washington bridge toll alone is $15 each way. Then there is the Throgs Neck bridge toll, ($10.17 each way), and the NY thruway toll, and the NJ thruway toll, ($5.75) and the gas taxes($.98 per gallon). Its like the Mafia runs the government, and we just put up with it.

My property tax in NY is also over $30,000 per year, and the democrat county executive wants to keep raising taxes. My kids had to move away, just to afford property taxes.
But liberals keep saying we need to pay our "fair share", while lower income families pay ZERO, and GET benefits.
Elon Musk pays more than the GDP of south Africa.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

We don't have any toll roads or bridges here in Finland, and ferries arranged between populated areas within Finland are free.

See, what we try to do here is have fair taxes. We know people with no income won't pay taxes and get benefits, but that's fine. Everyone pays their fair share, but not excesses. I make a lot of money, therefor I pay more in taxes - but never would I have to pay $30,000 in property taxes no matter what the property. Same reason I would never be asked to pay 80% of any income in taxes in any tax bracket. And these tax brackets might fluctuate once in a while, but they're never drastic. Same as property taxes: if I pay 1000€ this year, I probably paid €1000 five years ago and will probably pay €1000 ten years from now.

In exchange however, I get a lot in return for the taxes I pay - it's a social contract: the road network is well maintained, school comes at no extra cost and my kids are guaranteed to be able to study all the way to and including university at no extra expenses, including lunches at school until and including high-school. They will then get a stipend when they go study at the university, so they can get out of the house. My family doesn't have to worry about medical expenses, no matter what - and we live in a safe, functioning society that isn't trying to rip off its inhabitants. As a result, there is less crime, good public transport, those safety nets some of you don't like in case something goes horribly wrong, etc.

Edit: Oh, and government pretty much stays out of your business. Want to be off-grid? Go for it. Building permits: easy. Want to cut down your forest, go for it. Solar panel ground mount: go for it, doesn't need a permit. Never been stopped by police for swerving or whatever other excuse they seem to use in other countries, and police are easy to work with/talk to, same as the other civil servants when you need something. Simple alcohol test that takes 30 seconds for everyone on a busy road after some holiday because of past accidents on that road, sure, happens - once every five years maybe. Insurance claims: easy, and low insurance costs. Mortgage: easy. etc.

 

[Sanwizard]

We don't have any toll roads or bridges here in Finland, and ferries arranged between populated areas within Finland are free.

See, what we try to do here is have fair taxes. We know people with no income won't pay taxes and get benefits, but that's fine. Everyone pays their fair share, but not excesses. I make a lot of money, therefor I pay more in taxes - but never would I have to pay $30,000 in property taxes no matter what the property. Same reason I would never be asked to pay 80% of any income in taxes in any tax bracket. And these tax brackets might fluctuate once in a while, but they're never drastic. Same as property taxes: if I pay 1000€ this year, I probably paid €1000 five years ago and will probably pay €1000 ten years from now.
In exchange however, I get a lot in return for the taxes I pay - it's a social contract: the road network is well maintained, school comes at no extra cost and my kids are guaranteed to be able to study all the way to and including university at no extra expenses, including lunches at school until and including high-school. They will then get a stipend when they go study at the university, so they can get out of the house. My family doesn't have to worry about medical expenses, no matter what - and we live in a safe, functioning society that isn't trying to rip off its inhabitants. As a result, there is less crime, good public transport, those safety nets some of you don't like in case something goes horribly wrong, etc.

Your lucky that like Japan, you live in a cohesive lower population country, and your government is not run by criminals looking to enrich themselves without care of consequences.
If you had 2 million people crossing your border each year, with the government paying families hundreds of thousands for the anguish of having their "children" seperated from them as they broke the law, and then having to pay for their healthcare, jobs, schooling, etc, with them paying NOTHING, it would be different.

 

[Sanwizard]

Your lucky that like Japan, you live in a cohesive lower population country, and your government is not run by criminals looking to enrich themselves without care of consequences.
If you had 2 million people crossing your border each year, with the government paying families hundreds of thousands for the anguish of having their "children" seperated from them as they broke the law, and then having to pay for their healthcare, jobs, schooling, etc, with them paying NOTHING, it would be different.

As for crime, do your courts release criminals the next day with no bail?

 

[Cdkipp]

Your lucky that like Japan, you live in a cohesive lower population country, and your government is not run by criminals looking to enrich themselves without care of consequences.
If you had 2 million people crossing your border each year, with the government paying families hundreds of thousands for the anguish of having their "children" seperated from them as they broke the law, and then having to pay for their healthcare, jobs, schooling, etc, with them paying NOTHING, it would be different.

Interesting you have gone from proclaiming the superiority of the US economic system to two posts rationalizing why it obviously sucks compared to the Nordic system. At least at some level, you grasp the truth of the situation.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

As for crime, do your courts release criminals the next day with no bail?

As most Nordic countries, punitive measures are not as severe as some other countries and are focused on rehabilitation (with great success). Bail is different since there are no bail-bonds; if bail is applied, it's in the form of punitive measures. In general, no, you don't just get released if you're caught, depending on the incident of course.

 

[Sanwizard]

As most Nordic countries, punitive measures are not as severe as some other countries and are focused on rehabilitation (with great success). Bail is different since there are no bail-bonds; if bail is applied, it's in the form of punitive measures. In general, no, you don't just get released if you're caught, depending on the incident of course.

Sounds like you are living in a great place. Very jealous!

 

[Cdkipp]

Sounds like you are living in a great place. Very jealous!

If you look at life satisfaction indicators, as well as underlying health indicators, it clearly is a great place to live. There is objective evidence to prove that.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Sounds like you are living in a great place. Very jealous!

Let me also just put here that it's not perfect here - but perfect doesn't exist. I'm also not claiming that this place is for everyone: you can't satisfy everyone. If your intent is to become filthy rich: you have better chances in the States. If you want to carry guns all the time, Finland (while having a very large number of gun owners, one of the highest in Europe), is not for you. If you want access to all the stuff overnight and every type of food imaginable, it's not for you (climate has a lot to do with this, so is distance to the rest of Europe). If you like big cities, it's not for you. If you don't like an egalitarian society where you can go to Sauna with a CEO, Politician and a Janitor and have thoughtful conversations, it's not for you. Finns are quiet, private and take a long time to open up, so making friends isn't as easy. The language is extremely difficult to learn. And it's cold and dark for a large period of time each year. And I guess since we have these social safety nets etc, it's also not for everyone.

 

[Sanwizard]

Let me also just put here that it's not perfect here - but perfect doesn't exist. I'm also not claiming that this place is for everyone: you can't satisfy everyone. If your intent is to become filthy rich: you have better chances in the States. If you want to carry guns all the time, Finland (while having a very large number of gun owners, one of the highest in Europe), is not for you. If you want access to all the stuff overnight and every type of food imaginable, it's not for you (climate has a lot to do with this, so is distance to the rest of Europe). If you like big cities, it's not for you. If you don't like an egalitarian society where you can go to Sauna with a CEO, Politician and a Janitor and have thoughtful conversations, it's not for you. Finns are quiet, private and take a long time to open up, so making friends isn't as easy. The language is extremely difficult to learn. And it's cold and dark for a large period of time each year. And I guess since we have these social safety nets etc, it's also not for everyone.

Yeah, To each his own I guess. I do like the freedoms we have here. In South Carolina, I can sit on my back porch and do target practice with my 308. I have my own pool, palm trees, and dock for a boat. The ocean is 10 min away by car or 20 min by boat. Great food, sunshine and warm weather year round, and low cost of living. The ratio of female to male is also outstanding, as Charleston is a college town, with lots of pretty girls dressed for warm weather. Its also where cruise ships come in, so lots of fine food and drink too.

That being said, I just bought my house there in SC, so I am not full time there yet. (Its SMA grid tied with LG panels!) in New York, where I live now, taxes are high, cost of living is high, crime is high, its dirty, corrupt, and cold. Cannot wait to sell this place and move to south carolina, where its republican controlled, and still called a "free state" by us here. Crime is very low there, as open carry is allowed, and criminals dont last long. People are also VERY nice to each other, and chivalry is still practiced, where men hold open doors for the ladies, and good manners and humility are the norm, as God is still first place in the southern states in the US.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

as God is still first place in the southern states in the US.

Also why Finland wouldn't be for you.

 

[houseofancients]

as an american that has been living in northern europe for a while now, i find it extremely funny that most here are argueing with people living it.
basically europe has the same basic taxing system, and from experience i can tell you it is less than what i paid in the US, if you include everything like social security, healthcare and local taxes.
point is, i can go to the doctor when i want, without the huge bills, or deducables , hardly waiting time for non choice/life saving surgeries.

folks do yourself a favor, stay out of the aon/fox news narritives and listen some to the folks living it.

is any system inperfect and / or flawed..
absolutely ..

this one just doesnt bankrupt, kill me or prevents me from get treatment i need

would i like to pay less taxes ?
absolutely

 

[Cdkipp]

as an american that has been living in northern europe for a while now, i find it extremely funny that most here are argueing with people living it.
basically europe has the same basic taxing system, and from experience i can tell you it is less tyan what i paid in the US, if you include everything like social security, healthcare and local taxes.
point is, i can go to the doctor when i want, without the huge bills, or deducables , hardly waiting time for non choice/life saving surgeries.

folks do yourself a favor, stay out of the aon/fox news narritives and listen some to the folks living it.

is any system perfect and / or flawed..
absolutely ..

this one just doesnt bankrupt, kill me or prevents me from get treatment i need

would i like to pay less taxes ?
absolutely

I mean just look at the health care systems and how much the US pays in exchange for the poor quality. The idea that our system outperforms Europe is ludicrous. It is reflective of the underlying idiocy that drags this country down every day.

 

[houseofancients]

I mean just look at the health care systems and how much the US pays in exchange for the poor quality. The idea that our system outperforms Europe is ludicrous. It is reflective of the underlying idiocy that drags this country down every day.

sad to say but indeed, and most frustrating parts is :
the knowledge is there , and resources too, but only for the rich
meanwhile not allowing middleclass to get the same quality and access to said healthcare costs society as a whole much more...

 

[Bob B]

sad to say but indeed, and most frustrating parts is :
the knowledge is there , and resources too, but only for the rich
meanwhile not allowing middleclass to get the same quality and access to said healthcare costs society as a whole much more...

I don't think this is some sort of fuzzy social issue .... I think that is just becoming so obvious that it can no longer be ignored that the healthcare system in the US has been corrupted.

 

[Cdkipp]

I don't think this is some sort of fuzzy social issue .... I think that is just becoming so obvious that it can no longer be ignored that the healthcare system in the US has been corrupted.

The problem is that corruption and inefficiency are the inevitable byproduct of the system you so blindly praise. There is no way for straight capitalism, especially as bastardized by our private insurance system, to produce a thriving healthcare system. Consumers have no real choice here. We have no great opportunity to shop for our hospital, doctor or insurance. And, the Supreme Court has said it is just fine for all the money produced to go back into influencing the only people that could provide any control. Of course, it does not work but people like you will scream SOCIALISM when any realistic alternative is discussed.