Paralleling the EG4 PowerPro Wall battery.

[Alkaline]

THE UL9540 says they should have 3' between them, or you have to be commercial.

So it begs the question how can 5 server rack batteries in 1 rack be compliant?

This thing is starting to seem like a scam tbh... Almost like make sure the GRID is always a part of the equation, don't let them have enough power to where they can become offgrid!

 

[Adeon]

THE UL9540 says they should have 3' between them, or you have to be commercial.

So it begs the question how can 5 server rack batteries in 1 rack be compliant?

This thing is starting to seem like a scam tbh... Almost like make sure the GRID is always a part of the equation, don't let them have enough power to where they can become offgrid!

That’s what I was begging to think earlier too. I don’t think it’s a coincidence

 

[Quattrohead]

THE UL9540 says they should have 3' between them, or you have to be commercial.

So it begs the question how can 5 server rack batteries in 1 rack be compliant?

This thing is starting to seem like a scam tbh... Almost like make sure the GRID is always a part of the equation, don't let them have enough power to where they can become offgrid!

Do you like any battery at all ???
3' is UL9540, UL9540A allows spacing as determined by the manufacturer.
For example, Enphase allow 1" on some of it's batteries side to side with 6" above and below.

 

[Shimmy]

3' is UL9540, UL9540A allows spacing as determined by the manufacturer.
For example, Enphase allow 1" on some of it's batteries side to side with 6" above and below.

I agree with your statement... but back to the question of server rack batteries, are the racks tested within the 9540A procedures? I'm wondering how you would present it to an inspector.

[Edit] After checking Signature Solar's website they indicate that up to 60kWh "Cabinet" (12p) of the server rack batteries has been tested to 9540A. The test procedure is not included on their website, but the certificates are.

 

[Alkaline]

Do you like any battery at all ???

What? I was commenting on these certifications and requirements: https://www.ul.com/services/ul-9540a-test-method What does this have to do with any battery? It was a comment on the ever changing requirements of battery systems and certifications and the motives behind these requirements.

I tend to scratch my head when its ok to have a chevy bolt EV in the garage, but not ok to have a 20KW LFP battery...

 

[Shimmy]

What? I was commenting on these certifications and requirements: https://www.ul.com/services/ul-9540a-test-method

You were asking how a server rack could be compliant, and the answer is 9540A.

I tend to scratch my head when its ok to have a chevy bolt EV in the garage, but not ok to have a 20KW LFP battery...

Completely agree.

 

[Clarson]

I was under the impression UL9540A was the thermal runaway test and UL9540 was the MJ limit. I do not think just because you have passed UL9450A means you can bypass the Mega Jules limit imposed by UL9540.

Difference between UL 9540 and UL 9540A

UL 9540 is a safety standard for an energy storage system (ESS) and equipment intended for connection to a local utility grid or standalone application. It designates key issues associated with ESS. UL 9540A,on the other hand,is a test method for evaluating thermal runaway propagation for...

www.everexceed.com

I apologize if this is wrong, but I'm currently setting up this exact battery and my local installer told me 20KW limit / unit and 50KW max total for the house. Once this is setup I plan on getting 2 more for a max of 45 KW.

I also have a 16S Daly bms system with 304 cells but that would not pass inspection so I have shelved it for now.

 

[Shimmy]

I was under the impression UL9540A was the thermal runaway test and UL9540 was the MJ limit. I do not think just because you have passed UL9450A means you can bypass the Mega Jules limit imposed by UL9540.

Difference between UL 9540 and UL 9540A

UL 9540 is a safety standard for an energy storage system (ESS) and equipment intended for connection to a local utility grid or standalone application. It designates key issues associated with ESS. UL 9540A,on the other hand,is a test method for evaluating thermal runaway propagation for...

www.everexceed.com

I apologize if this is wrong, but I'm currently setting up this exact battery and my local installer told me 20KW limit / unit and 50KW max total for the house. Once this is setup I plan on getting 2 more for a max of 45 KW.

I also have a 16S Daly bms system with 304 cells but that would not pass inspection so I have shelved it for now.

The starting point is NFPA-855. That gives default values for UL9540 systems. It offers leway for different values through UL9540A testing procedures.

What I had trouble following is if 9540A gives you an out from the requirements of a commercial installation.

 

[Alkaline]

What I had trouble following is if 9540A gives you an out from the requirements of a commercial installation.

I want to know about this also, does 9540A give you an out from the UL9450 Residential Limits, that link clasion posted clearly makes it look like it does not.

Can anyone familiar with the matter chime in?

 

[TK1979]

I was under the impression UL9540A was the thermal runaway test and UL9540 was the MJ limit. I do not think just because you have passed UL9450A means you can bypass the Mega Jules limit imposed by UL9540.

Difference between UL 9540 and UL 9540A

UL 9540 is a safety standard for an energy storage system (ESS) and equipment intended for connection to a local utility grid or standalone application. It designates key issues associated with ESS. UL 9540A,on the other hand,is a test method for evaluating thermal runaway propagation for...

www.everexceed.com

I apologize if this is wrong, but I'm currently setting up this exact battery and my local installer told me 20KW limit / unit and 50KW max total for the house. Once this is setup I plan on getting 2 more for a max of 45 KW.

I also have a 16S Daly bms system with 304 cells but that would not pass inspection so I have shelved it for now.

50kw Max!?!?! That won't work for many folks, myself included

 

[Quattrohead]

I think you can go up to 80 kwh but they have to be split up in separate rooms or outside.

And yes obviously the rules and regulations are slow to catch up with reality when it comes to EV's and ESS systems.

 

[Shimmy]

I want to know about this also, does 9540A give you an out from the UL9450 Residential Limits, that link clasion posted clearly makes it look like it does not.

Can anyone familiar with the matter chime in?

It would be under NFPA855 or the International Fire Code.

 

[pvgirl]

9540 with appropriate test results from 9540A testing, can reduce the 3ft separation between ESS, and the 20kwh size limit per ESS, depending on the 9540A tests that were done and there results. The limits of 40kwh inside a residence, and 80kwh outside and in a garage, are hard limits and can not be exceeded.

 

[Watts Happening]

I have to say, this 9540 stuff sure seems to be a real pain in the ass, but also something that manufactures barely talk about. Like sure, they all mention being 9540 pending, but beyond that it’s crickets.

I’d sincerely like simple answers to the following questions. My goal is not to hold anyone to their answers, it’s just to be more informed. At the end of the day I think it’s quite likely I’ll simply NOT be compliant, and I think that’s whats really going on with most people.

For example, with my interpretation of 9540, @Will Prowse is clearly in “”violation”” here. Right? Will, you tend to try to follow the rules, is this just one you’re fine with breaking? Or, am I missing something?



It seems that basically any server rack with more than (3) batteries installed is in violation. I suppose based on other comments it’s possible that with further testing that could change, but I’m sure that becomes battery AND cabinet specific.

It all seems like a mess, my only real concern is having more than 20kWh in one location, then 5 years later having any form of house fire and having an insurance company deny my claim due to this technicality. Beyond that single concern, I couldn’t care less.

 

[Will Prowse]

I have to say, this 9540 stuff sure seems to be a real pain in the ass, but also something that manufactures barely talk about. Like sure, they all mention being 9540 pending, but beyond that it’s crickets.

I’d sincerely like simple answers to the following questions. My goal is not to hold anyone to their answers, it’s just to be more informed. At the end of the day I think it’s quite likely I’ll simply NOT be compliant, and I think that’s whats really going on with most people.

For example, with my interpretation of 9540, @Will Prowse is clearly in “”violation”” here. Right? Will, you tend to try to follow the rules, is this just one you’re fine with breaking? Or, am I missing something?

View attachment 168816

It seems that basically any server rack with more than (3) batteries installed is in violation. I suppose based on other comments it’s possible that with further testing that could change, but I’m sure that becomes battery AND cabinet specific.

It all seems like a mess, my only real concern is having more than 20kWh in one location, then 5 years later having any form of house fire and having an insurance company deny my claim due to this technicality. Beyond that single concern, I couldn’t care less.

Yes my system is in violation, with my current configuration.

I see 4 violations in my setup currently. I think people are going to get approved with one battery then add more later. Not the best way to do it, but I know they will.

 

[pvgirl]

For example, with my interpretation of 9540, @Will Prowse is clearly in “”violation”” here. Right? Will, you tend to try to follow the rules, is this just one you’re fine with breaking? Or, am I missing something?

At the moment yes this isn't UL 9540, as eg4 power pro/18kpv has not been listed yet. Based on comments made here more then likely the 18kpv/power pro battery part of this setup would be acceptable once listed. (the server rack batteries excluded.)

It seems that basically any server rack with more than (3) batteries installed is in violation. I suppose based on other comments it’s possible that with further testing that could change, but I’m sure that becomes battery AND cabinet specific.

Any ESS where the install doesn't follow the 9540 listing, and the manufacturers directions would be in violation. One thing to note is not all localities require UL9540 yet(some states are still on IRC & NEC 2017), and most don't require UL9540 2nd edition. The recently released 3rd edition of 9540 introduces the concept of DC ESS, under which a server rack "battery" could be listed and allow use with any compatible inverter, and comply with codes requiring 9540.

As an example here are Pytes listing documents for there server rack battery with the solark 15k which allow up to 12 batteries and the 9540a testing which show batteries can be stacked and installed right next to each other.

 

[Watts Happening]

At the moment yes this isn't UL 9540, as eg4 power pro/18kpv has not been listed yet. Based on comments made here more then likely the 18kpv/power pro battery part of this setup would be acceptable once listed. (the server rack batteries excluded.)

Any ESS where the install doesn't follow the 9540 listing, and the manufacturers directions would be in violation. One thing to note is not all localities require UL9540 yet(some states are still on IRC & NEC 2017), and most don't require UL9540 2nd edition. The recently released 3rd edition of 9540 introduces the concept of DC ESS, under which a server rack "battery" could be listed and allow use with any compatible inverter, and comply with codes requiring 9540.

As an example here are Pytes listing documents for there server rack battery with the solark 15k which allow up to 12 batteries and the 9540a testing which show batteries can be stacked and installed right next to each other.

Ok, so then here’s a curveball…

Let’s say your locality is still using NEC 2017, which I believe mine is.

Can you stick 6 server rack batteries in a cabinet and simply be grandfathered in? Typically codes work in that way, IE an old house doesn’t have to be rewired to meet new code.

At that point aren’t we essentially incentivized to install sooner rather than later? Or is there language to eliminate this practice?

 

[Jim in Florida]

Ok, so then here’s a curveball…

Let’s say your locality is still using NEC 2017, which I believe mine is.

Can you stick 6 server rack batteries in a cabinet and simply be grandfathered in? Typically codes work in that way, IE an old house doesn’t have to be rewired to meet new code.

At that point aren’t we essentially incentivized to install sooner rather than later? Or is there language to eliminate this practice?

It will vary state by state. Here in Florida your homes roof must meet code when built. 2021 changed that if you have work done on your roof it must be brought up to current code. 2022 Florida home owners started being contacted by their insurance company asking when was the last time your roof was replaced? It seemed like 15 years or less was what they were looking for.

 

[Watts Happening]

It will vary state by state. Here in Florida your homes roof must meet code when built. 2021 changed that if you have work done on your roof it must be brought up to current code. 2022 Florida home owners started being contacted by their insurance company asking when was the last time your roof was replaced? It seemed like 15 years or less was what they were looking for.

I’ll just be like, “ya know what Bob, I haven’t touched those batteries in 3 years”.

 

[pvgirl]

Ok, so then here’s a curveball…

Let’s say your locality is still using NEC 2017, which I believe mine is.

Can you stick 6 server rack batteries in a cabinet and simply be grandfathered in? Typically codes work in that way, IE an old house doesn’t have to be rewired to meet new code.

At that point aren’t we essentially incentivized to install sooner rather than later? Or is there language to eliminate this practice?

The requirement for UL9540 specific listing, as well as the 20kwh rule, are in the International Residential Code (IRC) not the NEC, IRC 2021 introduced the requirement for 9540, but some localities have amended older versions of the IRC with this requirement. If you don't have a requirement for 9540 now, you can install and ESS under the rules of NEC 2017(sec 706), you will still need listed components, batteries will need to be UL1973, or 9540.

Once it's installed and inspected, it's good, although upgrades or expansions could trigger a need to meet current code in the future.

 

[Shimmy]

As an example here are Pytes listing documents for there server rack battery with the solark 15k which allow up to 12 batteries and the 9540a testing which show batteries can be stacked and installed right next to each other.

Here is the EG4 Lifepower as well.

 

[Alkaline]

I have to say, this 9540 stuff sure seems to be a real pain in the ass, but also something that manufactures barely talk about. Like sure, they all mention being 9540 pending, but beyond that it’s crickets.

I’d sincerely like simple answers to the following questions. My goal is not to hold anyone to their answers, it’s just to be more informed. At the end of the day I think it’s quite likely I’ll simply NOT be compliant, and I think that’s whats really going on with most people.

For example, with my interpretation of 9540, @Will Prowse is clearly in “”violation”” here. Right? Will, you tend to try to follow the rules, is this just one you’re fine with breaking? Or, am I missing something?

View attachment 168816

It seems that basically any server rack with more than (3) batteries installed is in violation. I suppose based on other comments it’s possible that with further testing that could change, but I’m sure that becomes battery AND cabinet specific.

It all seems like a mess, my only real concern is having more than 20kWh in one location, then 5 years later having any form of house fire and having an insurance company deny my claim due to this technicality. Beyond that single concern, I couldn’t care less.

These limits need to be changed, a house should be able to go up to 150KW maybe even 200KW. By the end of the decade won't be uncommon to have 2 EVs in a single garage that combined have 150 - 200 KW.

These laws are way behind.

A water heater is way more deadly than these batteries:

 

[Watts Happening]

These limits need to be changed, a house should be able to go up to 150KW maybe even 200KW. By the end of the decade won't be uncommon to have 2 EVs in a single garage that combined have 150 - 200 KW.

These laws are way behind.

A water heater is way more deadly than these batteries:

I agree, however I’m sure plenty of EV’s have burned homes to the ground too.

I think a great first step would be to simply differentiate between battery chemistries.

I can completely understand the local fire department not wanting to deal with 200kWh of DIY 18650 cells. On the other hand I don’t think there are many stories of lifepo4 batteries burning in the same manner.

I’d say this is no different than having a 55 gallon drum of race gas in your garage vs used motor oil. Sure, they’re both petroleum products but let’s not act like they behave in the same way near an ignition source.

 

[Will Prowse]

They need to differentiate systems using cobalt based chemistries and those without. The risk factor is substantially higher on the cobalt-based battery packs.

Most ESS are now LiFePO4, but being treated as NMC or NCA.

LiFePO4 is similar to a stack of wood. And the electrolyte combusts at similar temperatures. There is no comparison to cobalt-based chemistries. They should have different rules of compliance for each.

 

[Watts Happening]

They need to differentiate systems using cobalt based chemistries and those without. The risk factor is substantially higher on the cobalt-based battery packs.

Most ESS are now LiFePO4, but being treated as NMC or NCA.

LiFePO4 is similar to a stack of wood. And the electrolyte combusts at similar temperatures. There is no comparison to cobalt-based chemistries. They should have different rules of compliance for each.

Exactly what I was saying, I was just trying to not use complicated words like cobalt for those that may not know lol