Really need some help or advice

[WarmachineX0]

Well, are the 3 panels and the 3 panels on the proposed (Option #2) split-string, pointing the same direction / angle, and one array or other array not subject to shadowing while the other is not?

In a series string, if one panel (or group of panels) get shaded or with significant difference in angle it could or will lower down output of the whole string.

On the plus side, Option #2 would leave you a full empty PV input on inverter to hook up another 6s panels later without having to mod the existing cabling layout.

They are only like 4 to 5⁰ difference between the two arrays, they face the same direction. They are built on the side of a hill to get over my 6' height limit. My house Shadows them equally during winter solstice, about 60%. I shadow mapped the entire area for a year.

In good news, this is the last permit to finish now for my house to be completed. I'm still 100% off grid, I just don't like being reliant on a gas can.

 

[Samsonite801]

They are only like 4 to 5⁰ difference between the two arrays, they face the same direction. They are built on the side of a hill to get over my 6' height limit. My house Shadows them equally during winter solstice, about 60%. I shadow mapped the entire area for a year.

In good news, this is the last permit to finish now for my house to be completed. I'm still 100% off grid, I just don't like being reliant on a gas can.

Well good luck on finishing everything up here, sounds like things should start looking better here from here on out.

So is the initial issue with the inverters all worked out now, they seem to be operating stable and no popping sounds or smoke or anything?

 

[WarmachineX0]

Well good luck on finishing everything up here, sounds like things should start looking better here from here on out.

So is the initial issue with the inverters all worked out now, they seem to be operating stable and no popping sounds or smoke or anything?

I got an email last night from MPPSolar pretty much confirming the pv lines as the issue. The inverters are still isolated, but I should have them connected and hopefully running tomorrow. Today I'm rewiring the panels and rerunning the lines. Fingers crossed it works out, I'd love to have power this weekend.

 

[Zwy]

How are you bonding N-G on this system? I run a pair of LV6548's and only one inverter has the bonding screw in place and I have a 3 pole double throw to break N so there is only one N-G bond.

 

[WarmachineX0]

How are you bonding N-G on this system? I run a pair of LV6548's and only one inverter has the bonding screw in place and I have a 3 pole double throw to break N so there is only one N-G bond.

I'm adding a generator charge system, the info I was given was to leave them in place. But it said if it's a completely off grid with no AC input, do the ground neutral bond in the load center. That's about all I know, hybrid 240v is a learning experience for me.

 

[Zwy]

I'm adding a generator charge system, the info I was given was to leave them in place. But it said if it's a completely off grid with no AC input, do the ground neutral bond in the load center. That's about all I know, hybrid 240v is a learning experience for me.

Have you removed any of the bonding screws?

This is important and probably the cause of your original failures. Adding a generator will complicate matters and you need to get it right.

Where is your current bonding? Filter Guy, myself and others had many discussions regarding this topic when the LV6548 first was introduced. The engineers for MPP do not have any idea how to properly address bonding in North America. Your inverters are not hybrid either, the units are designed for off grid use with AC bypass.

 

[WarmachineX0]

Have you removed any of the bonding screws?

This is important and probably the cause of your original failures. Adding a generator will complicate matters and you need to get it right.

Where is your current bonding? Filter Guy, myself and others had many discussions regarding this topic when the LV6548 first was introduced. The engineers for MPP do not have any idea how to properly address bonding in North America. Your inverters are not hybrid either, the units are designed for off grid use with AC bypass.

I've not removed any bonding screws. I'm not following MPPSolar on that one, I'm following Current Connected's advice, they gave me this video,

Is there anything in the manual on it, as I'm not even sure where it is? And isn't a Inverter/charge controllers all in one a hybrid inverter?

 

[Samsonite801]

I've not removed any bonding screws. I'm not following MPPSolar on that one, I'm following Current Connected's advice, they gave me this video,

Is there anything in the manual on it, as I'm not even sure where it is? And isn't a Inverter/charge controllers all in one a hybrid inverter?

I know on the newest firmware for the EG4 version (6500EX) comparable for the 6548 inverter, is they added a parameter in the settings for handling the N-G bond relay inside the inverter. You might look into whether this 6548 manufacturer is doing similar (since they all seem to be derivatives of the Voltronic hardware/firmware, provided it's not a clone)..

The setting (if exists) would allow one to change the behavior of the N-G bond relay, so user doesn't have to fuss with removing N-G Bond screws.

One thing, NEC requires you have only one N-G bond, so you need to pick which inverter will have that N-G bond role (or do it somewhere else in the breaker box or something), and disable the N-G bond in the adjacent inverter. It's is for safety reasons, and so you don't get any voltage potential traveling across the ground wire (ground loop) between the two inverter's N-G bonds.

Several ways to go about it, but must be right (only one N-G bond at any given time, as close to the power source as reasonably possible) so it's safe...

Here is more info about grounding and bonding in detail, relating to the 6548 family..

Grounding Question

Hi, I am adding a separate main panel for my house that will be on solar only. I plan to move the circuits over to the solar panel (including the hot, neutral and ground) that way they will not be tied into the grid panel at all. My question is how would I ground this system. I have 2 x EG4...

diysolarforum.com

And there was a PDF referenced there which the link seems to be down, so I will post it here as attachment..

 

[Zwy]

First thing is hit this link: https://diysolarforum.com/resources/grounding-and-bonding-the-mpp-lv6548-inverter.323/download

Study diagrams 5,6,7 and 10. Mine is wired similar to diagram 10 with a 3 pole transfer switch. The location of the bonding screw is shown on page 18. You will need to determine where your system N-G bond will take place and whether the generator bonds N-G as this will affect how to bond your system.

Your thread reminds me of this thread. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lv-6548s-split-phase-not-awesome.54708/ where several inverters failed at power up.

While the EG4 6500EX is similar, bonding is handled differently. In the settings, there is no an option to turn dynamic bonding on/off. The LV6548 does not have this setting.

 

[Samsonite801]

While the EG4 6500EX is similar, bonding is handled differently. In the settings, there is no an option to turn dynamic bonding on/off. The LV6548 does not have this setting.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if that was only an EG4 thing or where it originate from in the chain.. But yeah, it's not hard to take a screw out at any rate.

Tracking some of these inverters through their vast distribution chains is like trying to understand the Linux distro chain...


EDIT:
I guess one of my implications by mentioning it (about the EG4 with the new N-G bond setting) is, I wasn't sure if the latest version 6548 by Voltronic, or MPP Solar, or any other derivative of the distro chain (the new hardware rev with the 390v PV limit), if they were going to put in be able to enable something similar, perhaps because of the newer hardware in them. Nobody really knows on the consumer-side what changes are exclusive to the EG4 models (hardware or firmware)...

I know I have the older LV6548s and of course they do not have any such settings for N-G bond anything.

 

[WarmachineX0]

First thing is hit this link: https://diysolarforum.com/resources/grounding-and-bonding-the-mpp-lv6548-inverter.323/download

Study diagrams 5,6,7 and 10. Mine is wired similar to diagram 10 with a 3 pole transfer switch. The location of the bonding screw is shown on page 18. You will need to determine where your system N-G bond will take place and whether the generator bonds N-G as this will affect how to bond your system.

Your thread reminds me of this thread. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lv-6548s-split-phase-not-awesome.54708/ where several inverters failed at power up.

While the EG4 6500EX is similar, bonding is handled differently. In the settings, there is no an option to turn dynamic bonding on/off. The LV6548 does not have this setting.

I read the whole thread, I'm still not sure of everything, but you seem to know your stuff. I do plan on hooking a generator into the AC inputs. But the generator at the transfer switch is bonded I believe, I get continuity at the common and ground while isolated. What would be the best way to go about this? By the diagrams, at the very least I'll need to remove the one in the secondary inverter.

Also to add, my house is to code so it has any bonds required by the NEC. Also found a YouTube video on turning my generator into a floating neutral, would that work with diagram #6?

 

[Zwy]

I read the whole thread, I'm still not sure of everything, but you seem to know your stuff. I do plan on hooking a generator into the AC inputs. But the generator at the transfer switch is bonded I believe, I get continuity at the common and ground while isolated. What would be the best way to go about this?

Where is the transfer switch for the generator? Before your main service panel that contains N-G bond? A diagram would be helpful.

I'd give you more information but I'd like to know how this is wired as to not confuse you.

By the diagrams, at the very least I'll need to remove the one in the secondary inverter.

First, are you running a main service panel that will feed grid power to the inverters, then a loads panel after the inverters? And again, where is the transfer switch located? Is transfer switch 2 pole or 3 pole so common is switched?

The LV6548's have internal transfer switches that will break neutral, this helps if any other N-G bond is ahead of the inverters and not after. This allows N-G bond at source which is preferred while you can switch back to grid power and maintain N-G bond.

Also to add, my house is to code so it has any bonds required by the NEC.

I really need to know if you have a main service panel that is N-G bonded and you plan on powering a loads panel after the inverters.

It's not entirely clear whether you intend to use the inverters completely off grid or with a grid input on the AC side to allow bypass and AC charging. I did not see a grid input in your photo but it does matter how you intend to input the generator or a grid input connection. Lithium Solar covered some of this in the video. As he will use his system completely off grid, he added the jumper between N and G busbars for bonding and removed the bonding screws in both inverters. We need to define how you intend how to use this system both now and in the future.

 

[WarmachineX0]

This is the closest diagram I currently have. Attached.
Load center=> rapid shutdown=> transfer switch=> transfer to Main breaker /or/ generator.

*Ignore this post, my phone's grammar and spelling screwed it all up. I have an old cell phone that barely works. Im leaving it as it was quoted.

 

[Zwy]

This is the closest diagram I currently have. Attached.
Load center=> rapid shutdown=> transfer switch=> transfer to Main breaker /or/ generator.

Is this all in one structure? If so, remove the second earth ground rod.

I am a little confused on how you currently run on generator. Are you just turning off the main 200A breaker? There would need to be an interlock on that 200A panel as it appears it is backfed from the transfer switch. In addition, the backfed breaker requires a hold down kit.

Is the transfer switch 2 pole or 3 pole?

With the generator N-G bonded, you will have objectionable current on G when using the generator with a N-G bond at the 200A main shutoff. Who installed the transfer switch?

 

[WarmachineX0]

Is this all in one structure? If so, remove the second earth ground rod.

I am a little confused on how you currently run on generator. Are you just turning off the main 200A breaker? There would need to be an interlock on that 200A panel as it appears it is backfed from the transfer switch. In addition, the backfed breaker requires a hold down kit.

Is the transfer switch 2 pole or 3 pole?

With the generator N-G bonded, you will have objectionable current on G when using the generator with a N-G bond at the 200A main shutoff. Who installed the transfer switch?

Sorry, I'm trying to reply on an old cell phone, and I'm all thumbs. My system is kinda based off the 3kw system on my cabin, but that's just 120v and way easier. The batteries and inverters are in a conex about 20' from my house. The transfer switch is 2 pole, and I installed it, Generator/off/Solar. I have a generator plug next to my transfer switch wired to the generator pole, 15' cable to a 240v 30a. The transfer switch then wires into a 200amp shutoff=>200amp Main Breaker.

At a later date, after my inspection, I plan to install a plug, breaker, and lines to the AC input to be able to charge and supply. This will likely be 30a 240v, split into separate 120v lines to the inverters. I've still got more research to do on this. And, I'm not sure but it sounds like I should have made my generator floating neutral to power my house.

Just to add, on my diagram, the house has to be shown because the line runs underneath the house. That was the first diagram that was approved.

 

[Zwy]

The way it is currently wired, you could feed AC power from 2 sources that are not in phase. This is dangerous if an interlock is not present.

The preferred method would be 200A service disconnect with N-G bond, then a 3 pole transfer switch which feeds a breaker panel. This allows switching sources from grid to alternatives into the breaker panel while breaking the N so there are not 2 points with N-G bond. The problem is 200A 3 pole transfer switches are not cheap. Adding another transfer switch ahead of the inverters would allow switching between generator and grid power into the inverter AC input. That could be 2 pole and the current switch you have would work.

Are you backfeeding a breaker in the 200A panel and is a interlock present? As for making the generator floating neutral, not required if you were to feed it into the inverter AC input or into a 3 pole transfer switch after the 200A service disconnect (the service disconnect contains N-G bond). This is how my system is wired, the inverters were later changed to LV6548's.

This allows the breaker panel on the right to be powered by grid or the inverters. I can completely bypass the inverters if needed. The problem with your system is you have 3 sources that are N-G bonded with the neutral common on all. This allows objectionable current on G as 1/2 of the N current will be on G back to source.

The inverters could have the bonding screws removed and that eliminates that N-G bond. A 2 pole transfer switch could be installed before the inverters to switch between grid power and generator. This allows battery charging by the inverters by grid or generator plus it allows the generator to power loads with inverter bypass. As an alternative for the generator, you could use a Chargeverter to charge your battery bank and that makes the N-G bond in the generator isolated.The decision is yours on which direction you take and that will determine how it is wired. I really think you will need another transfer switch before the inverters or move the current transfer switch and use an interlock on the 200A disconnect with a backfed breaker. The latter would require removing the N-G bond in the generator and bonding screws in both inverters. One question is what do you have for a generator?

Can we have a photo of the 200A service disconnect and the breaker panel and how these are wired?

 

[WarmachineX0]

The way it is currently wired, you could feed AC power from 2 sources that are not in phase. This is dangerous if an interlock is not present.

The preferred method would be 200A service disconnect with N-G bond, then a 3 pole transfer switch which feeds a breaker panel. This allows switching sources from grid to alternatives into the breaker panel while breaking the N so there are not 2 points with N-G bond. The problem is 200A 3 pole transfer switches are not cheap. Adding another transfer switch ahead of the inverters would allow switching between generator and grid power into the inverter AC input. That could be 2 pole and the current switch you have would work.

Are you backfeeding a breaker in the 200A panel and is a interlock present? As for making the generator floating neutral, not required if you were to feed it into the inverter AC input or into a 3 pole transfer switch after the 200A service disconnect (the service disconnect contains N-G bond). This is how my system is wired, the inverters were later changed to LV6548's. View attachment 175896

This allows the breaker panel on the right to be powered by grid or the inverters. I can completely bypass the inverters if needed. The problem with your system is you have 3 sources that are N-G bonded with the neutral common on all. This allows objectionable current on G as 1/2 of the N current will be on G back to source.

The inverters could have the bonding screws removed and that eliminates that N-G bond. A 2 pole transfer switch could be installed before the inverters to switch between grid power and generator. This allows battery charging by the inverters by grid or generator plus it allows the generator to power loads with inverter bypass. As an alternative for the generator, you could use a Chargeverter to charge your battery bank and that makes the N-G bond in the generator isolated.The decision is yours on which direction you take and that will determine how it is wired. I really think you will need another transfer switch before the inverters or move the current transfer switch and use an interlock on the 200A disconnect with a backfed breaker. The latter would require removing the N-G bond in the generator and bonding screws in both inverters. One question is what do you have for a generator?

Can we have a photo of the 200A service disconnect and the breaker panel and how these are wired?

I'm not sure what back feeding a panel is. It comes into the house just like if it came from the grid. Comes out of the ground into the bottom of the 200a shut off, and is directly wire as if it where from the grid. I did not do this part, the house electrician did it.

I'm confused on adding another transfer switch. Where would I transfer the power to, as far as I can tell it would just be power/off/off. I currently don't have the money to get a new one, wouldn't replacing the one I have be better?

My current generator is a Predator 8500. I also have a Firman 9500 for other equipment, but rarely use that one on the house.

As for bonding the generator, could multiple bonds damage the generator? I had this old generator on my cabin, 3800w. Ran for 5 years perfectly, before I bent a valve just before moving into my house. The new house has chewed through three generators in a year and half and is close to claiming another (it's currently running 55hrz). They are all the same brand, and the last three where the same model.

I've attached a pic of the breaker panel, I'll get a pic of the shutdown after my wife leave for work.

 

[WarmachineX0]

Im also confused on the part where you said/warned it would be possible for feed house from two different sources. Unless you mean some feed back on the g-n bond, there is no way for two AC sources to connect.

I'm not sure if there is a miscommunication, but I'm 100% off grid, power is like 1/2 mile from my house. There are the inverters and only one other source of input, and that's the generator plug, and it's live feeds are blocked by the transfer switch when switch to Solar (except like we're talking the ground and neutral). The only other "AC input" are in the inverters AC in.

Here is a pic of the shutdown.

 

[Samsonite801]

Im also confused on the part where you said/warned it would be possible for feed house from two different sources. Unless you mean some feed back on the g-n bond, there is no way for two AC sources to connect.

I'm not sure if there is a miscommunication, but I'm 100% off grid, power is like 1/2 mile from my house. There are the inverters and only one other source of input, and that's the generator plug, and it's live feeds are blocked by the transfer switch when switch to Solar (except like we're talking the ground and neutral). The only other "AC input" are in the inverters AC in.

Here is a pic of the shutdown.

If it were me, I would only wire the generator to the 6548 inputs, and also to a chargeverter, and not have the generator feed anything else. Then you don't need any external ATS, since 6548 already do ATS.

This is how I am setting up my system. The generator will only be optionally wired to a small 2-breaker box, where one breaker feeds the AC inputs on the inverters (with feed breaker turned off probably forever), as I plan to use only my 4x 48v AIMS battery chargers (on the other of the 2 breakers) to charge batteries directly, but if I have a failure on my external battery chargers, I can turn on the other breaker from generator to the AC input on the inverters and charge that way (which causes the inverters to go into bypass mode, charges batteries and feeds house loads).

I don't see any reason to wire a generator directly to the house's AC loads panel, since the inverters already have bypass mode for that.

 

[Zwy]

Im also confused on the part where you said/warned it would be possible for feed house from two different sources. Unless you mean some feed back on the g-n bond, there is no way for two AC sources to connect.

I'm not sure if there is a miscommunication, but I'm 100% off grid, power is like 1/2 mile from my house.

Thank you, that makes more sense.

There are the inverters and only one other source of input, and that's the generator plug, and it's live feeds are blocked by the transfer switch when switch to Solar (except like we're talking the ground and neutral). The only other "AC input" are in the inverters AC in.

Here is a pic of the shutdown.

I do not see any N-G bonding in this switch.

If there isn't N-G bonding in the breaker panel, then leave the generator bonded and leave one inverter bonding screw in place. I looked at the photo of the breaker panel and do not see N-G bond in it.

The reason for removal of the bonding screw in one inverter is to eliminate objectionable current on G.

I'm not sure what back feeding a panel is. It comes into the house just like if it came from the grid. Comes out of the ground into the bottom of the 200a shut off, and is directly wire as if it where from the grid. I did not do this part, the house electrician did it.

I'm confused on adding another transfer switch. Where would I transfer the power to, as far as I can tell it would just be power/off/off. I currently don't have the money to get a new one, wouldn't replacing the one I have be better?

As you are off grid and rely solely on the generator and solar system, and those are the only sources of electrical power, you will not need another transfer switch.

My current generator is a Predator 8500. I also have a Firman 9500 for other equipment, but rarely use that one on the house.

As for bonding the generator, could multiple bonds damage the generator?

Yes. It can also damage an inverter.

I had this old generator on my cabin, 3800w. Ran for 5 years perfectly, before I bent a valve just before moving into my house. The new house has chewed through three generators in a year and half and is close to claiming another (it's currently running 55hrz). They are all the same brand, and the last three where the same model.

I've attached a pic of the breaker panel, I'll get a pic of the shutdown after my wife leave for work.

What is the breaker with the yellow hold down kit?