So running these with batteries you still need a charge controller? What are you using or am I not understanding?
Recommended vendors for GTIL inverters?
- Thread starter fafrd
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Yes, that’s correct. These GTILs include an MPPT and can be powered directly from PV, but unless your load exceeds PV production all day long, that means you will be wasting some of your solar power.
In my case, the utility has greatly reduced the value/credit of production or reduced consumption during daylight hours and greatly increased the cost of evening consumption (4pm to 10pm).
So my primary goal was ‘time-shifting’ and I made a 560Ah 24V LiFePO4 battery for that purpose. Since the battery is connected to the DC power inputs of the GTILs (meaning MPPT voltage is clamped to battery voltage), I need a separate ‘box’ to get my battery charged from my solar array.
I purchased an Epever 6420AN SCC connected to my 1.1kW DC-coupled array to charge the battery during daylight hours (when electricity here in California is ‘worth’ $0.20/kWh).
A ‘bonus’ I had not expected in the AN-Series SCCs is that they contain two programmable dry contacts including one that can be controlled by an internal timer.
So I’ve used a cheap 2-pole relay controlled by the Epever’s dry contact to ‘connect’ AC power to my two GTILs only when Peak Period starts at 4pm.
The GTILs both turn on and offset consumption only during peak period, meaning they are reducing my electric bill by $0.45 for each kW of power they put out.
In summer months of June-September when Peak pricing is applied, I’m generally charging well more that the kWs of energy every day to offset nearly all of my peak consumption (when the Electroc Ovwm Element is firing, that 3kW load exceeds the maximum power of ~1.6kW that can be put out by the GTILs, so only ~53% of that consumption is being offset by the GTILs and the rest is being supplied by the grid).
Because the dry contact of the Epever can be programmed both by time and battery voltage, I have it programmed to run from start time of 4pm until the battery is empty. This means I maximize the self-consumption I offset at peak rates of $0.45/kWh but then continue offsetting consumption at off-peak rates of $0.20/kWh until the battery is drained and ready to begin charging again the next morning.
After first building my 24V battery top-balanced, I quickly figured out that a bottom-balanced battery would actually be better-suited for this application.
I spent $500 for the 2 1kW GTILs and another $240 for the 1.5kW Epever SCC and overall, I’m exceedingly pleased at how that sub-$750s-worth of electronics is performing.
Right now I’m only generating about 1140kWh / year with this rig because that’s all the self-consumption I have to offset, but it’s been designed so that once we get an EV, I can add another 400-500W panel to cover 1300-1700 miles of driving each year or more panels + a second SCC if we drive much more than that (I’ve already wired-in 3 string home-runs total).
fafrd:
I have to laugh every time I read one of your posts about these GTIL units. You are obviously enamored with them, and personally, I'm glad that you go to the trouble to share your experiences. I'm with you on your hope that someone like Deye will make a better quality version in the future.
What makes me laugh are your comments about avoiding rewiring your loads. I'm not picking on you, and I also have no idea of how your property is built, or how the wiring is done. That being said, I've rewired dozens of services, and it just isn't that big of a deal. Especially when someone is talking about a critical loads panel. AC current is way easier to deal with than DC, and in comparison, is almost childs play.
In most cases, you can simply install the new panel adjacent to the older (main) panel, commonly with just a pipe nipple and some insulated bushings. Move a couple circuits over to the new panel, and put your breaker in the other panel if using it as a sub-panel. If wires are not long enough, mount a junction box, and splice the wires to extend them. I've had numerous people ask if that is going to affect anything. They don't seem to realize that your outlets are already wired point to point. Just make good connections, and put them in a properly size junction box.
A good friend of mine who was always paranoid about any wire connection would crimp the wires. Not a bad idea, but hard to deal with if you every have to change anything. I've seen many, many inspected systems where an electrician used the original service as a large junction box, and put plugs in any holes that were not being used. Sometimes, they cut a piece of tin and make a new cover for the old box.
Again, not picking on you. But I see this same comment over and over on this forum, and it amazes me that people will build their own battery banks, deal with all sort of hardware and software issues for DC, solar, etc, and yet be afraid or unwilling to mount a circuit panel for simple ac. By the way, when we move to a new area, I always check with the local permit folk, get approved to do my own work, and take out permits. It isn't hard.
So, please, carry on with the GTIL stuff. I'm interested in trying one myself, just for fun.
I have to laugh every time I read one of your posts about these GTIL units. You are obviously enamored with them, and personally, I'm glad that you go to the trouble to share your experiences. I'm with you on your hope that someone like Deye will make a better quality version in the future.
What makes me laugh are your comments about avoiding rewiring your loads. I'm not picking on you, and I also have no idea of how your property is built, or how the wiring is done. That being said, I've rewired dozens of services, and it just isn't that big of a deal. Especially when someone is talking about a critical loads panel. AC current is way easier to deal with than DC, and in comparison, is almost childs play.
In most cases, you can simply install the new panel adjacent to the older (main) panel, commonly with just a pipe nipple and some insulated bushings. Move a couple circuits over to the new panel, and put your breaker in the other panel if using it as a sub-panel. If wires are not long enough, mount a junction box, and splice the wires to extend them. I've had numerous people ask if that is going to affect anything. They don't seem to realize that your outlets are already wired point to point. Just make good connections, and put them in a properly size junction box.
A good friend of mine who was always paranoid about any wire connection would crimp the wires. Not a bad idea, but hard to deal with if you every have to change anything. I've seen many, many inspected systems where an electrician used the original service as a large junction box, and put plugs in any holes that were not being used. Sometimes, they cut a piece of tin and make a new cover for the old box.
Again, not picking on you. But I see this same comment over and over on this forum, and it amazes me that people will build their own battery banks, deal with all sort of hardware and software issues for DC, solar, etc, and yet be afraid or unwilling to mount a circuit panel for simple ac. By the way, when we move to a new area, I always check with the local permit folk, get approved to do my own work, and take out permits. It isn't hard.
So, please, carry on with the GTIL stuff. I'm interested in trying one myself, just for fun.
Capt Bill
Sailing Options
As I consider the Amazon Y&L 1000W Grid Tie w Power Limiter: Question: Do you know : Can that "power limiter" block all grid feeding? like: Can the whole unit w power limiter be configured to send all solar conversion of 120vac to home load only? while blocking all excess above home load from grid feeding? ... even for a minute??? ... I am considering this unit for a Costa Rica experiment on a highly valued grid connect going through an old type mechanical meter that gets physically read once per month. ... If I experiment, it would be without going legal (while also doubting while wondering / this unit could make a legal hoop jump in Costa). I do not want to risk my meter connection. Costa Rica does have a route for legal grid ties. I am considering the gorilla option for just covering some smallish electric needs, like for an Air Conditioner unit; and showing some of my solar interested neighbors some options. ... Also Wondering: Can these type of units be legally hooked up to the grid some places in the world, in an above board way? ... I would welcome info. for my understanding that part of the world view picture . Bet it is no big deal in some places outside the usa.
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Agree, in general.
Yes.
Not paranoid, lazy (and no space).
Been there. Done that (with my home’s original service which is a 6-fuse block seeing knob and tube wiring).
The electrical system of my 1940’s era home is essentially maxed out in terms of available physical space for panels as well as in terms of how far the existing wiring can be modified / extended.
Not impossible to upgrade everything but a lot of work and expense.
Not afraid, certainly unwilling until there is no alternative. I drew up the plans, got all the permits, and did all the install for my 4kW AC-coupled system (which is where I experienced the joy of converting the original service main, by then a subpanel with fuses, to a junction box
. I know exactly what my inspector thinks of my home wiring and what changes he’d require for any rewiring of my circuits.We’re considering remodeling the kitchen and a project like that would likely require reworking the entire service entrance. When that day comes, it’ll be straightforward to also organize either the entire main panel as a critical loads panel with transfer switches to the main breaker or a portion of the home’s circuits in a critical loads subpanel…
But that day is not this day (partly because backup power is not a priority now, just time-shift to offset the impact of rate changes).
You’ll get a kick out of it when you do. They are a true innovation that has been widely under appreciated by the market.
I’m watching to see whether ‘zero-export-to-CT’ and parallel connection configuration gets UL listing and approval by building departments.
For now, I’m just playing around, learning, and offsetting my rate increase in advance of my larger, more permanent build expected in 2023 when we expect to get an EV (and may also remodel our kitchen
).That is precisely it’s intended function. It can be programmed to maintain grid consumption at whatever positive value you would like (and stops producing any more power once grid consumption is reduced to that level or is lower).
yes
Without the proper equipment, it is difficult to detect short transients, but I have never been able to measure positive export and if there is any for brief moments while the unit is stabilizing after a new load has turned on, if is for far, far less than a minute (seconds at most).
If you are concerned that your meter may flag even instantaneous export, you should set the parameters so that the GTIL offsets less consumption (for example, set minimum consumption at 100W rather than recommended 10W).
“Capt Bill” said:
With a mechanical-style meter, I don’t believe you have anything to be concerned about. You will never see your meter run backwards with this unit (even for a few seconds).
If you just want to offset the consumption of one or two appliances, you can go the route of connecting the CT sensor to an extension cord supplying that appliance (as I’ve already summarized).“Capt Bill” said:
In my opinion, your greatest risk is if your utility notices that your average electrical consumption drops dramatically, so using one of these GTILs to only power some ‘new’ load should be totally undetectable…
“Capt Bill” said:
These specific 1kW and 1kW units are so inexpensive, I doubt they will ever get UL listing and other approvals.
But Deye makes other more expensive inverters including those sold by Solark that support the ‘zero export to CT sensor’ feature and are apparently either already listed or in the process of getting UL listed.
So as far as the safety certifications needed for this style of inverter (again, more expensive, more powerful models), I believe those are on the way.
The other question is whether building codes will allow inverters of this class will allow ‘parallel connection’ without requiring transfer switches to be wired in between service main and inverter.
This is similar to the way backup inverters with AC Chargers are wired - they can get energy from the grid but cannot send any back so they do not require external transfer switches and only ‘island’ by disconnecting from the grid using interval transfer switches when the grid goes down.
External transfer switches are not required because that class of inverter has proven it will never export power, ever (grid up or grid down).
So I’m watching to see whether the ‘zero export to CT sensor’ functionality achieves this same level of acceptance and permitting.
Solark May already have achieved this since they use CT sensors and J believe they support ‘zero export to CT sensor’ capability.
What I do not know is whether building departments allow Solark inverters to be connected in parallel and not requiring external transfer switches (especially when not being used under an export agreement with the utility).
Sounds like you might want to have a look at Solark’s specifications and literature: https://www.sol-ark.com/homeowner/
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Following up on this, I found the manual for Solark: https://www.altestore.com/static/datafiles/Others/Solark_8K-install-owner-Manual-8-3-2019.pdf
Section 5 describes the mounting of a transfer switch but it appears that is only needed for automatic backup (Critical Loads).
The wiring diagram shown at the top of Section 5 shows full-parallel connection of the Solark AC input to Grid and there is a note saying:
‘If you are not installing a transfer switch (Off Grid or have a 50A sub-load panel), you can wire the “Load” output of the Sol-Ark 8K directly to a Main Lug breakers sub-panel rated for at least 50A.’
So this suggests that no transfer switch is needed if their is either no Critical Loads panel or if the Critical Loads panel is limited by a main lug breaker of 50A or less.
I’m addition, section 11.a Limiter Sensors states:
‘Limiter Sensors
i. Install on incoming electrical service wires on L1 and L2 (see diagram pg. 11). Required if selling power to whole home.’
And Section 15 Grid Setup states:
‘15. Grid Setup
a. Grid Sell: maximum watts sold to grid
b. Limited To Home: Limits power produced by the system to match the demand of the home
c. Limited To Load: Limits power produced by the system to match the demand of connected loads’
And finally, figure H on page 25 shows how Grid power will read 0W when in ‘Limited to Home’ mode (and home load is within maximum output capacity of inverter) and states that:
‘In Limited To Home Mode HM values will be close to zero. HM values should never be negative. If negative, the Limiter Sensors are not installed properly.’
So this is precisely the ‘zero-export-to-CT-sensor’ capability with parallel connection to grid delivered by the SUN-1000/2000G2 GTIL inverters but with UL listed hardware.
I’m now interested to understand whether local building departments are approving installation of these Solark inverters without requiring any transfer switch between main panel and inverter…
Section 5 describes the mounting of a transfer switch but it appears that is only needed for automatic backup (Critical Loads).
The wiring diagram shown at the top of Section 5 shows full-parallel connection of the Solark AC input to Grid and there is a note saying:
‘If you are not installing a transfer switch (Off Grid or have a 50A sub-load panel), you can wire the “Load” output of the Sol-Ark 8K directly to a Main Lug breakers sub-panel rated for at least 50A.’
So this suggests that no transfer switch is needed if their is either no Critical Loads panel or if the Critical Loads panel is limited by a main lug breaker of 50A or less.
I’m addition, section 11.a Limiter Sensors states:
‘Limiter Sensors
i. Install on incoming electrical service wires on L1 and L2 (see diagram pg. 11). Required if selling power to whole home.’
And Section 15 Grid Setup states:
‘15. Grid Setup
a. Grid Sell: maximum watts sold to grid
b. Limited To Home: Limits power produced by the system to match the demand of the home
c. Limited To Load: Limits power produced by the system to match the demand of connected loads’
And finally, figure H on page 25 shows how Grid power will read 0W when in ‘Limited to Home’ mode (and home load is within maximum output capacity of inverter) and states that:
‘In Limited To Home Mode HM values will be close to zero. HM values should never be negative. If negative, the Limiter Sensors are not installed properly.’
So this is precisely the ‘zero-export-to-CT-sensor’ capability with parallel connection to grid delivered by the SUN-1000/2000G2 GTIL inverters but with UL listed hardware.
I’m now interested to understand whether local building departments are approving installation of these Solark inverters without requiring any transfer switch between main panel and inverter…
fafrd: very interesting info. We were discussing these subjects today, especially the idea of a small bank of the GTIL units. We wonder how long (on average) they might last. Wish I could get my hands on one just to inspect it, before buying.
I'm just finishing up 2 complete kitchen tear outs, including walls, and windows. Lots of work. The wiring was by far the easiest. With the way prices are skyrocketing, am glad we are at the end, not the beginning.
I'm just finishing up 2 complete kitchen tear outs, including walls, and windows. Lots of work. The wiring was by far the easiest. With the way prices are skyrocketing, am glad we are at the end, not the beginning.
Amazon gives you a month-long no questions asked return period.
You can buy one, test it for a month, and return it for a full refund if you are not happy.
My only advice would be to be sure you have your battery all set up as well as whatever test equipment you plan to use to see how well it works (so you don’t waste too much of your return period getting set up to begin testing).
As far as how long these will last, the fact that they are manufactured by Deye (the same manufacturer that manufactures the Solark Hybrid inverter) makes me cautiously-optimistic that they may prove longer-lasting than I had hoped.
Build quality seems pretty solid and I only max my two units out when the heating element of the electric oven turns on.
My only gripes are that efficiency is pretty poor at ~80% (at least when powered by a 24V battery - they claim that efficiency will improve if powered at 48V) and that the cooling fans, while they seem effective at keeping the inverter nice and cool, are loud when they first turn on (supposedly to quickly cool below some threshold before tapering down and cooling at a lower-flow quieter level).
I’ve got two 1kW units, one per leg, but the manual shows banked operation with 2 or even 3 parallel units on each leg (so multiple feedback loops appear to play nice with each other).
Each parallel GTIL needs it’s own individual CT sensor, which is a PITA.
There is a communication port labeled ‘WiFi Plug Connection’ but no functionality seems to be supported yet.
Hopefully they eventually allow one GTIL with a CT Sensor to communicate to any other units stacked on the same phase so that only a single sensor is needed for the entire stack…
Cheap 4-life
My body is 2.63 trillion volts, .07v per cell
Using the 2kw Gtil2 on a splitphase main panel will absolutely cover the power for your homes 120v and 240v loads. The meter on most homes reads the homes power usage at 240v. There is no neutral connection in the meters.
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@fafrd , I already purchased the SUN-1000GTIL2 (but not delivered yet), seem it same as yours.
Kindly share your current block diagram of installation, it will very help me for installation plan...
TIA.....
www.aliexpress.com
Kindly share your current block diagram of installation, it will very help me for installation plan...
TIA.....
276.5US $ 21% OFF|Sun-1000gtil2-lcd Power Grid Inverter Voltage Solar Dc To Ac 1000w-power 22v-65v Or 45v-90v (optional) - Solar Inverters - AliExpress
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
www.aliexpress.com
I don’t have any diagram but it is pretty straightforward.@fafrd , I already purchased the SUN-1000GTIL2 (but not delivered yet), seem it same as yours.
Kindly share your current block diagram of installation, it will very help me for installation plan...
TIA.....
276.5US $ 21% OFF|Sun-1000gtil2-lcd Power Grid Inverter Voltage Solar Dc To Ac 1000w-power 22v-65v Or 45v-90v (optional) - Solar Inverters - AliExpress
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
I am running off of 24V battery power, so have thick 2/0 welders cables running from battery positive switch and BMS external negative to the DC inputs of the inverter.
For AC, I added a new 10A dual-pole circuit breaker to my main panel and ran L1, N, and L2 to a newly-created outlet with L1 coming out of one socket and L2 coming out of the other (I have 2 GTILs, one per leg).
The bundled extension cords that came with the 2 GTILs just plugs into the outlets….
I’m not sure if you are planning to configure your unit for 240V output or just covering one 120V leg, but I’ve never tried a 240V configuration and a 120V would just look like a single-pole version or what I just described.
So for 120V single-phase, the wiring I’m using is exactly like Picture 1 of the Limit Function user manual except that the PV panel is replaced by my 24V battery.
And my 240V/120V split phase wiring is exactly like the upper two-thirds of Picture 2 with both L1 and L2 GTIL connected to the same 24V battery rather than two separate PV arrays and no L3 existing in my 240V service.
Congrats on jumping on the same sale I did one year ago - for $275, I’m extremely happy with the capability these little bye GTILs deliver and will be interested to see what you think after you get yours up and running…
Cheap 4-life
My body is 2.63 trillion volts, .07v per cell
Been using mine for years with no problems other than transistor for the fans. Easy fix.
There’s many of them still going after 10 years. There’s a Facebook group for them
chaosnature
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Did you connect a separate device to cultivate the battery power in the evening?
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chaosnature
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Hi
I can do with advice with SUN-1000GTIL2-M
my setup works except that in the evening I don't get power feed from the batteries even though they had been charged during the day. what is the trick to using up the battery energy stored using the SUN-1000GTIL2-M at night,
doesn't seem like the batteries can feed the grid the way the solar energy feeds the grid during the day - , I see they speak of the device discharging the batteries, where is it discharging it to?
regards
chaosnature
New Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2022
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Hi
I can do with advice with SUN-1000GTIL2-M
my setup works except that in the evening I don't get power feed from the batteries even though they had been charged during the day. what is the trick to using up the battery energy stored using the SUN-1000GTIL2-M at night,
doesn't seem like the batteries can feed the grid the way the solar energy feeds the grid during the day - , I see they speak of the device discharging the batteries, where is it discharging it to?
regards
chaosnature
New Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2022
- Messages
- 431
Did you connect a separate device to cultivate the battery power in the evening?
The GTILs are powered by the battery, not powered by the solar.
The solar is connected to a separate Solar Charge Controller (SCC) that charges the battery while the sun is shining.
The GTILs consume DC power coming either from the battery and/or the SCC and push that energy into the breaker panel to offset measured self-consumption.
What SCC are you using and what battery voltage are you using?
So I’ve now been running my pair of 1kW GTIL inverters for one year now without issue.
I generated 1750kWh of DC energy over the past year captured by charging a 14kWh 24V LifeOO4 battery and while I don’t have monitoring set up on my GTIL inverters , I characterized. their efficiency before setting them up and they generally deliver efficiency of 80-85% when run off of my 24V LiFePO4 battery.
So it seems like my pair of GTILs has successfully offset at least 1400kWh of consumption over the past year, most of it off-peak solar-energy capture such was used to offset consumption over peak hours of 4-9pm (time-shift).
I’m assuming these will die eventually and when they do, I plan to upgrade with a higher-quality UL-listed hybrid inverter such as a Solark or a Schneider Conext, but until they, I am exceedingly happy with the consumption-offset capability I’ve managed to throw together for a total inverter cost of $550.
I spent another $200 on a 60A Epever SCC and that has also performed like a champ over this first year.
And for those wondering why I’ve headed down this path, I’m awaiting the arrival of V2H and bidirectional EV chargers such as that being developed by Emporia.
Whether it’s available next Spring as they expect or not before 2024 when there should be a number of EVs supporting bI-directional charging to choose from, a bidirectional charger supporting V2H will be the heart of my final / long-term system.
Whatever hybrid or AC-coupled battery inverter I choose to replace these GTILs with once they conk out, they will be selected in the context of compatibility with my V2H-based architecture…
The technology is changing so rapidly right now, I decided it made more sense to only invest in a small modest-cost ‘learner’ system using cheap Chinese boxes such as these GTILs and the Epever while the higher-quality offerings co to use to evolve and mature (and become more cost-competitive).
Anyway, for anyone co side find these little SUN GTIL inverters but concerned about quality, my experience is great value for money (at least for the first year).
Will be back with an update whenever that changes or in one year’s time
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