Samlex EVO 4248?

[JAS]

Hi all,

Is there any reason to believe that the new Samlex EVO 4248 split phase inverter would not be able to start my 240v deep well pump? (I realize I'll need enough battery to handle the amps. I'm leaning towards the EG4 PowerPro (200A BMS). Is 1 enough?)

Background: Well is around 500' deep. Not sure how far down the pump is set or what HP the pump is. But, it is definitely not a Grundfos soft start...

My old 5000/6250 Coleman generator used to be able to run it (with a groan). I had an electrician out many years ago to measure the inrush current. I don't remember the number, but he said the Coleman would be able to do it. My new 9000W Westinghouse handles it with ease..

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[sunshine_eggo]

It really depends on the pump specs.

If this is it:

EVO-4248SP Split Phase 48V Inverter/Charger | Samlex America

With the Samlex EVO-4248SP split phase inverter/charger you get a 48V, 4200W unit with 120/240 VAC input and output to power all your necessities.

samlexamerica.com

4200W continuous
12600W surge

It has a strong potential to do so. If you find the pump/motor model, you should be able to look up running current and LRA/surge and confirm.

You'll need to consider the BMS surge capability as well.

 

[JAS]

Sorry, finally got back around to this...

It's a Franklin Electric Model #: 2801084915 1hp 230v 9.8 S.F Max Amps. I googled the model number, but did not find any specs on what the surge amps would/could be. However, as I said, my old Coleman generator with a surge of 6250 handled it ok (I just made sure to turn off other high draws in the house when taking a shower). My new generator handles the well and the central air running at the same time no problem.

Yes, I may need multiple batteries in parallel to handle the surge amps on the DC side

 

[OffGridForGood]

Sorry, finally got back around to this...

It's a Franklin Electric Model #: 2801084915 1hp 230v 9.8 S.F Max Amps. I googled the model number, but did not find any specs on what the surge amps would/could be. However, as I said, my old Coleman generator with a surge of 6250 handled it ok (I just made sure to turn off other high draws in the house when taking a shower). My new generator handles the well and the central air running at the same time no problem.

Yes, I may need multiple batteries in parallel to handle the surge amps on the DC side

I looked at some of the Samlex equipment, seemed to have excellent over-load current potential for starting motors, but I didn't buy any, yet.
If I recall correctly @Steve_S runs the Samlex components on his system, speaks highly of the equipment. Perhaps we can get him to comment.

 

[Steve_S]

I run a Samlex EVO 4024 (120V output) and it's a great Inverter and have never had issues with it... I have indeed pushed it out to limits during my Thrash Testing which saw it hit 10,000W output (1 Mig Welder & 1 3hp Compressor simultaneously) plus a few other things... ;-)

The 4024 default charger setting is set to 40A but can do 100A (without using passtrhough). I run mine at 80A Charging as I do have need for passthrough to the house. Unfortunately, there is no interface to BMS' although with proper programming that is not a big deal.

Very programmable and both AC inputs (Grid AC / Genset AC) have their own built-in ATS (which is fast).

I cannot speak to the latest edition which supports 240VAC out, but it is in the same EVO family. The current version I have has no external application/Bluetooth apps. They have ModBus & CANbus but the protocol stacks are not public. This is something I've talked with them about as I also have a Developer NDA and have access to such info. Sorry, I cannot share it. They are working on several new products which are due for 2024, some "long awaited" features & functions will be incorporated.

 

[OffGridForGood]

I run a Samlex EVO 4024 (120V output) and it's a great Inverter and have never had issues with it... I have indeed pushed it out to limits during my Thrash Testing which saw it hit 10,000W output (1 Mig Welder & 1 3hp Compressor simultaneously) plus a few other things... ;-)

The 4024 default charger setting is set to 40A but can do 100A (without using passtrhough). I run mine at 80A Charging as I do have need for passthrough to the house. Unfortunately, there is no interface to BMS' although with proper programming that is not a big deal.

Very programmable and both AC inputs (Grid AC / Genset AC) have their own built-in ATS (which is fast).

I cannot speak to the latest edition which supports 240VAC out, but it is in the same EVO family. The current version I have has no external application/Bluetooth apps. They have ModBus & CANbus but the protocol stacks are not public. This is something I've talked with them about as I also have a Developer NDA and have access to such info. Sorry, I cannot share it. They are working on several new products which are due for 2024, some "long awaited" features & functions will be incorporated.

Do you think the 4248 would be able to start up his Franklin Pump given the data we see:
6250 gas gen started the pump max peak Amps 26? - he did say the gen struggled a bit
9000 gen set started the pump "with ease" peak amp output 9000/240 =37.5A?

 

[Steve_S]

The inverter can handle up to 3X surge, so 4200W X 3 which should provide 52A uncorrected. The surge only lasts a few moments so it isn't an issue, provided the VAC Circuits & breakers are proper for the setup.

The Generator "bog" is actually quite normal when a heavy surge hits. I see this with my 4750W Inverter Generator as well as my 9000W Construction generator.

A Note - reminder...
When using a Genset to feed AC to an Inverter/Charger, it will NOT correct sine wave. If the Genny is an Inverter type it will output clean Pure Sine and that is passed through... If using a Mod Sine Construction Generator, Mod Sine is passed through and it is not as clean nor as healthy for Fine Electronics. FYI - this is rabbit hole we've been down before - it is simply what it is... there was some seriously "stoopid" around Mod Sine Gen's & Inverter types... NOT doing it again.

REF info if interested.

Waveforms Explained: Sinewave vs Modified Sinewave | Magnum Dimensions

Understand the difference between pure sinewave inverters and modified sinewave inverters with this quick access "Waveforms Explained" article.

www.magnum-dimensions.com

 

[OffGridForGood]

The only risk then, say the Samlex 4248 - doesn't start the pump, and since this inverter can't be parallelled your stuck.
I wrote to Samlex a month or two ago asking if the 4248 could be set up two in parallel - they said "not yet" - but indicated a parallel -able model is due for release in 2024. (I believe Steve_S was indicating this earlier in the post as well) so if you can wait, it may be better option to get the parallel -able version next year.

 

[JAS]

Thanks guys! And yes, by the time I'm ready to spend some money, the (hopefully) new unit will be available

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Surge is typically 5X run for pumps, so < likely 50A LRA. Should do it.

 

[JAS]

Update:

Spoke with support at Samlex today. (Awesome support! Answered within hours and gave me his cell number to call him back!)

I asked about parallel capabilities since I'm unsure if a single unit can power my well pump.

Although he was confident the single unit can start the well pump without issue, he did say that they expect to advertise parallel capability within the next month. Technically, it is possible now, but requires the remote for both units and support to walk through the configuration and they don't encourage that. But, next month they expect to have a new firmware that will enable the use of a single remote to enable parallel capability!

He said even if I bought the unit now, it could be upgraded to the new firmware without issue to support parallel configuration.

 

[OffGridForGood]

by the time I'm ready to spend some money, the (hopefully) new unit will be available

Update:

Spoke with support at Samlex today. (Awesome support! Answered within hours and gave me his cell number to call him back!)

I asked about parallel capabilities since I'm unsure if a single unit can power my well pump.

Although he was confident the single unit can start the well pump without issue, he did say that they expect to advertise parallel capability within the next month. Technically, it is possible now, but requires the remote for both units and support to walk through the configuration and they don't encourage that. But, next month they expect to have a new firmware that will enable the use of a single remote to enable parallel capability!

He said even if I bought the unit now, it could be upgraded to the new firmware without issue to support parallel configuration.

So...
Does this mean "you're ready to spend money"?
Then you can post your experience with parallel of these Samlex inverters and we can learn from your experience!!

 

[JAS]

Does this mean "you're ready to spend money"?

Yes, ?

But, I will only start with a single unit and if that can handle the well pump, I'll have no need for a 2nd unit.

 

[Steve_S]

Hmmm 4200W ÷ 240VAC = 17.5A
3X Surge Handling = 52.5A
RAW - Uncorrected for losses etc...
Must be some Crazy Assed insane defective pump if your worried about the inverter handling it.

Sorry but I have a Grundfos SQ5 Deep Well pump, 240' deep, to 50 Gallon pressure tank then 75' to the house. This is a SOFT-START Pump and only uses 120VAC. It starts at 500W and steps up in 250W increments till it hits 1200W @ 52PSI cutoff. Never ever notice pressure change and never stresses the system at all.

One thing to always keep in front of the brain... Conservation is ALWAYS cheaper than Generation & Storage ! Energy efficient devices is key to that, soft-starters for Well Pumps, AC Systems etc can save you PILES and reduce overall system stresses. That fridge you inherited from Grandma that keeps your "POP" cold in the garage is likely costing you 4X the energy than a new efficient fridge...

BTW: Smalex Inverters do have MODbus & CANbus but are closed (not publicly released) and therefore there is no software monitoring or control also they cannot be connected to a SmartBMS with communications abilities. I have put the Samlex Engineers in touch with the JKBMS Developers to see if JK can integrate comms support... I somehow doubt that JK will get there with them.

 

[JAS]

Must be some Crazy Assed insane defective pump if your worried about the inverter handling it.

I wasn't initially.. but enough people chimed in to make me 2nd guess myself

soft-starters for Well Pumps

I'd be interested in specific products? I've talked with a few different plumbers and well guys and none of them know about anything that can be added (easily anyway) to an existing 240v deep well pump (I'm over 475' down. Not sure of the specs of the pump)

 

[Steve_S]

I'd be interested in specific products? I've talked with a few different plumbers and well guys and none of them know about anything that can be added (easily anyway) to an existing 240v deep well pump (I'm over 475' down. Not sure of the specs of the pump)

For a deep well pump, it would have to be pulled out, I'm pretty sure. You may be finding yourself having to replace it because one of the failure signs is power usage, especially start surge climbs ... Last time I had to replace a well pump, it was a beastly old monster 420' down, what a fricken chore, let me tell ya. The worst part was tree roots were growing around the pipe, which didn't help the extraction...

 

[JAS]

Well, I ordered the 4248 last night from donrowe.com...

Hoping to catch a sale again on batteries within the next few weeks. Thinking I will go with rack mount batteries instead of the powerpro. Will be cheaper to add on in the future and also easier to increase the capable amp draw.

It will probably be summer before I get everything installed. So it will be a while before I can follow up with results.

 

[rustyrotors]

im working on an install with an evo4248sp, it has no issues running a fountain pump and a 400ft well pump at the same time. the fountain pump pulls about 900W, well pump pulls about 1300W continuous. we plan on running a 2nd well pump with it also. just make sure your battery can handle the surge. the surge was triggering OCP with a single 48V/100Ah SOK battery, which can surge 6kW. no issues after adding a second battery, which should be good for 12kW surge

 

[rhino]

im working on an install with an evo4248sp, it has no issues running a fountain pump and a 400ft well pump at the same time. the fountain pump pulls about 900W, well pump pulls about 1300W continuous. we plan on running a 2nd well pump with it also. just make sure your battery can handle the surge. the surge was triggering OCP with a single 48V/100Ah SOK battery, which can surge 6kW. no issues after adding a second battery, which should be good for 12kW surge

As has been mentioned numerous times the best solution is to use a Grundfos well pump which does not have a surge. It puts less stress on the entire system and makes it much easier to use even an inverter without large surge capability. The OP mentioned Franklin pump and that is exactly the well pump I replaced 20 years ago with a 120V Grundfos because of the crazy surge. There was noticeable difference even when still on grid power. Every time the Franklin kicked on all the lights in the house dimmed, with the Grundfos you'd never know it even kicked on.

 

[JAS]

Hey everyone,

Update: I'm a bit further along on my setup now. I have (2) EG4 LifePower4 Batteries connected in parallel to the EVO. I have the AC-In connected to my grid power.

One of the first issues that I ran into is that the EVO goes into an "OverVoltage" Alarm, and more importantly stops inverting, when the BMS stops accepting a charge. Using the EG4 software, I can see that a single cell goes into protection mode, causing the BMS to stop accepting a charge. Unfortunately, as the cell comes back down into range and the BMS accepts a charge again, the EVO again starts charging, and causes a rapid on/off cycle of the Inverter AC Output as the alarm continues to occur. (Making me cringe as I see my network equipment rapidly power on and off )

Initially, I lowered the bulk charging voltage and as I have cycled the batteries, they are staying more in balance and has become less of an issue. However, I could see this also happening if the low temperature protection of the BMS kicks in too.

I contacted Samlex support and requested a change in behavior via a possible firmware update. They said that they are internally discussing changes to this behavior.

Stay tuned...