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Sand Battery Experement

This would certainly make sense. My proposal was along the same lines earlier as a energy storage under the house.

But the problem still remains: too much heat loss with the attempted high temperature sand solution.
Another problem that I don't think has been touched on is how to deliver the heat.

EG: What is a rated to handle those sorts of temps to move the heat to conditioned space? Even if you found something you'd still have to temper it or you would risk the safety of the occupants.
 
Flow batteries have electrodes and a liquid electrolyte, but the electrolyte volume is not limited by what is contained in each individual cell.

When charging, an electrolyte is pumped through the cell and the "charged" electrolyte can be stored indefinitely in an external larger storage volume.
During discharge the electrolyte is pumped back in the reverse direction and "discharged" recovering the original stored electrical power.

The cell ampere our capacity is limited only by how large your external storage tanks are.
So it would be quite possible to store energy in summer and recover it many months later in winter.
The main disadvantage in doing this is the relatively high cost of the electrolyte.
So possible, but probably not economic.......

Stored electrical power could be used to drive a heat pump, so if the main intent is for wintertime heat storage, a heat pump could theoretically improve system efficiency.

Suggest you do an internet search for "flow batteries" they are not yet common, but I believe they are currently available.
https://arena.gov.au/blog/south-australia-goes-with-the-flow-battery/
 
Another problem that I don't think has been touched on is how to deliver the heat.

EG: What is a rated to handle those sorts of temps to move the heat to conditioned space? Even if you found something you'd still have to temper it or you would risk the safety of the occupants.
HI, I was thinking of having a 2" or 3" tube in a large coil approx 4' in diameter 100' long - 4' high buried in the sand. Both ends of the tubes would terminate in the greenhouse - i was just going to blow air from the greenhouse, down the tube and the air would be returned to the greenhouse - heated.

i hadn't worked out if i need to add heatsinks to the tube in the sand to get the heat back into the tube, or whether it would happen automatically.

i guessed i could adjust the heat coming back into the greenhouse, by adjusting the amount of air movement.

any body got any calculations for this??
 
any body got any calculations for this??
@MattiFin has provided some very nice examples of the calculations in his previous posts. In fact, I think they are great examples of how cool the metric system is. Being from the USA I'm struggling to follow them but fully intend to circle back and study them until I do understand them.

Fundamentally, you either have to figure out how much energy you need to store or how much energy you can store.

EG: My car gets 25 mpg and I need to go 250 miles so I need 10 gallons to get to where I'm going.
or
I have 5 gallons in my tank and my car gets 25 mpg. How far can I go?

You need to figure out how many "gallons" your greenhouse can hold. I'd probably use cubic feet. Then I would try understand how many BTU's are in each each of those cubic feet per degree I can add or take away from it.

First, let's figure out how many cubic feet you have. L x W x H = Cubic feet.
 
That is true only if there are no losses in the process.

EG: My car gets 25 mpg and I need to go 250 miles so I need 10 gallons to get to where I'm going.

What if your fuel tank has a leak ?

You might need 11 gallons, or 27 gallons to go that 250 miles.
 
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I'm not sire if this helps or not. I have read of a solar farm that heats salt to liquid form, stores it in insulated tanks, then when the sun goes down uses the salt to heat water to steam to run a genetator.
 
I'm not sire if this helps or not. I have read of a solar farm that heats salt to liquid form, stores it in insulated tanks, then when the sun goes down uses the salt to heat water to steam to run a genetator.
What you are referring to is a concentrated solar plant where they have the huge array of mirrors to focus the light onto a tower with the tank of molten salt. The plant on the California / Nevada border is still operating like that. I don't think you could scale it down to make a home system.

Check out this page.


and this

 
I guess it would be the same problem of insulating well enough as with sand. I was thinking it would'nt need to be liquid to store energy.
 
I was thinking it would'nt need to be liquid to store energy.
When matter changes state from solid to liquid, or liquid to gas, and the reverse also, there is a thing called latent heat. Boiling water for example will stay right at 100C (212F) for a very long time as a lot more energy is absorbed into the water. Once it is turned to gas (steam), it has to release all that energy again to turn back into liquid water. With the molten salt, the solid to liquid change happens at around 220C (over 420F). So when they pump the water through the bath of molten salt, it can transfer a huge mount of energy into boiling the water to make steam, as the molten salt has to release all of it's latent ha energy before the temp will fall below that 220C. This is the same physics property that makes ice stay cold, and those blue packs hold even colder.

I found this article about Molten Salt Energy Storage

Storing energy without latent heat is called "Sensible Heat". That is what most home hot water or hot sand systems try to use. Sensible heat is the heat stored without a phase change, like water at just 80C instead of boiling it. With "sensible heat" the temperature of the storage media changes directly with the amount of energy in it. To get energy in or out of the system, the temperature has to change quite a bit.

Latent heat is the heat needed to perform a phase change. It takes far more energy to move the temperature as the phase changes. When using the phase change to steam and back, water latent heat can store/release 80 times as much energy for just a 1C temp change in the same mass of water. Molten salt works similar to boiling water, but at a higher temperature.

With a carful design, maybe it could be scaled down. Instead of the huge field of mirrors, could PV panels run electric heat to make a material change phase efficiently? The big issue is the 20% efficiency of PV panels. Concentrated solar puts far more of the sun's energy into heat. To the point where using the heat to boil water to spin turbines is still as efficient, or even more efficient for a given solar collecting area to make electricity.

One thing the electric utilities really like about the Ivanpah power plant is the power output easily coasts through passing clouds, unlike PV panels that dip instantly. And even at sun set, when the PV array immediately stops making power, the molten salt keep boiling water to keep the power flowing for a few hours after dark. It gives them plenty of time to get a natural gas plant up to speed to take over the load. And one of the big controversies at Ivanpah, is they made it "Dual Fuel". It can just burn natural gas to keep the molten salt hot and keep the steam and electricity flowing.
 
So rather than starting a new topic, I'll tag onto this one. I am off grid, and my solar system is almost always at 100% every day because it's so sunny here, and my energy usage is minimal. I have an old coal/woodstove from the early 1900s, and rather than making it functional, I was toying with the idea of making a sand/thermal battery out of it.

How do you control one, on a thermostat, and so that it only turns on once the batteries are at 100%?
 
Some SCC and some inverters can enable an output when there is surplus power available or battery is full.

More ideally, you would send a variable amount of power to the heating element, only the surplus amount.
Otherwise your system will cycle on and off, partially draining battery then recharging.

SMA used to make "Smart Load 6000", which responded to frequency shift power control, presenting an ideal (resistive, PF = 1.0) load to AC, delivering power to a heating element.


Other than that AC coupled technique, I don't think you usually get such analog view of surplus available.
Except, in the absence of shading, you can look at voltage of PV array; exceeding Vmp indicates surplus, so you could vary load to target a slightly higher voltage.
 

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