Shower Set-Ups

[HARG Hunter]

I would love to see everyone post their shower set-ups.

Looking at purchasing an LP tankless water heater/shower set-up.
We have a rain collection barrel for water, so we'd also need to hook up a water pump.
Looks like most water pumps for these systems are powered by DC, but I've wired my entire cabin for AC through my inverter.

Just hoping to see everyone's set-ups and try to figure out the best set-up for us.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Picasso]

My place dosnt need pumps so can't offer much help on that. For heaters https://www.eccotemp.com/ has been good to me. Go on sale a good amount. I have both modulating and none. The modulating ones need AC power but setting the temp and forgetting about it is nice.

 

[Steve_S]

I use an Eccotemp FVI12 for my Hot Water it works but I CANNOT RECOMMEND IT. It is extremely finicky for water temp consistency and it does not matter if you have a pressure balancing system either. They have newer & more up to date models like the 20HI which from what I have heard is much better. LINK Eccotemp LPG On-Demand water heaters

NOTES on On-Demand Water Heaters "Lessons Learned dept."
*) Typical ground water temp is roughly 50F / 10C so your looking at a 60-70 degree F rise for 110/120F. A smaller system will lower water pressure to allow for the heat rise required (makes temps more variable) and a bigger system can deliver it but uses a bit more gas. One solution that works is to install a PRE-MIX valve (these are similar to post mix balancing valves but NOT the same). By installing a Pre-Mix valve, it takes a small amount of the hot water coming out and reinjects it into the cold water in line thereby raising the incoming temp by a few degrees, lowering the amount of heat required to bring the temp up and there is no pressure loss.

*) Install the On-Demand heater as close to Point of Use as possible to reduce the run length of the plumbing carrying the hot water to point of use.
*) Run 3/4" pipe TO where the hot water heater is, split there to feed 1/2" to Cold Water IN (for the heater) and 1/2" to Cold Water (directed out from there). This helps reduce the flow changes when someone opens a tap.
*) Insulate (Pipe Wrap) your pipes, both cold & hot. Cold to eliminate condensation and to maintain a constant temp as much as possible. Hot, simply to keep the water hot till it's delivered.

! EXHAUST VENTS !
Be cautious on this. Some On-Demand heaters are sold as kits with the correct exhaust venting (generally a better buy) but be certain the kit is correct for your region and their rules/regs. I fell over this one and it cost me $$$. The venting MUST be installed just right or you could end up with serious issues (applies to all gas appliances).

I also have Radiant Heating in my Frost Protected Slab Foundation. This uses a dedicated Takagi T-H3M-DV-P (Indoor) On-Demand heater. This is one sweet system but is also 3X the cost of the Eccotemp (which cannot be used for Radiant Heating either). LINK:

T-H3M-P - 120,000 BTU Liquid Propane Indoor Condensing Ultra-Low NOx

The compact T-H3M is a fully modulating, liquid propane fired, tankless water heater perfect for residential applications. With liquid propane inputs of 120,000 BTU, the T-H3M can produce enough hot water for up to two bathrooms in warmer climates. ENERGY STAR® QUALIFIED

www.takagi.com

* This is a dedicated system as the radiant system uses propylene glycol instead of water.
** Takagi also owns several other Brand Labels and their electronics are used by a few companies. This is considered a Tier-1 high end product, which is obviously reflected in pricing.

Required Items:
Installation Kit: (water & gas valves as required: https://www.brasscraft.com/products/water-supplies/tankless-water-heater-installation-kits/
Pre-Mix Valve: (one example, but several out there) https://www.kingsupply.com/Pre-Mix-Valve-p/pmv9020.htm
Watts Industries PDF-DOC on Mixing Valves. (Also probably best manufacturer too) http://www.wattsindustries.com/images1/wif/doc/d_tmv_gb.pdf

Final Notes:
The standby power used by either of the On-Demand heater I have is like 0.01A - I mean it's nothing of consequence. When running the Heaters themselves use little electricity themselves. Only when the water pump kicks on, is the power hit of course. If you are using Well Water, then certainly have a Sediment & Particle filter system installed BEFORE the water heater and cold supply to house.

I use Rainfresh Filters which are some of the best filters on the market and not expensive ! The pressure drop is minimal, even with my 2 stage system (large sediment filter, then a a micro-filter). These may be available in the USA or there may be something similar (hopefully with a high rating too). They even have Rainwater Filtration filters. NOTE that even their UV Water Sterilisation system only uses 50W "when in use" and this is one of the most Power Frugal ones out there. http://rainfresh.ca/residential-water-filters-canada

Hope it helps, Good Luck.
Steve

PS EDIT:
Here is my shower setup. Galvanised Metal sides, std. brass plumbing valves, the bottom is a Sheep water trough. (2'D X 6'L).
figured I'd add it to show the possibilities.

 

[MichaelK]

I've been using this model, and it has more a less worked OK. Our well fills a tank up the hill, so after the pump is shut off, the water is presurized by gravity.

Eccotemp L10 2.65 GPM Portable 75,000 BTU Liquid Propane Outdoor Tankless Water Heater

Sportsman's Guide carries top-quality discount Outdoor and Hunting Gear, Guns, Ammo, Fishing Supplies and more - all at great low prices!

www.sportsmansguide.com

It's battery powered, so ignition sparks from the batteries when water starts to flow. I can generate a LOT of hot water in the summer when the water only needs heating about 30-40 degreesF. In winter when the water tank is close to freezing, I need to cut the flow rate down to keep the water at a reasonably hot temp.

It did not perform well when mounted on an outside wall subject to winds. Gusts will extinghish the flame. Inside and vented, the performance is better.

 

[sunnydaze]

Has anyone used any of the tankless water heaters at any kind of evelavation ?

I am looking at them for a cabin that is at 6500ft, most of them say they do not work well above 2000ft. I was hoping to find one that will work ok or has an adjustment on the fuel mixture.

 

[MichaelK]

Mine is operating at 5000 feet.

 

[sunnydaze]

Mine is operating at 5000 feet.

That's promising to hear, I wanted to start out with a $150-$200 model and hopefully make it work for a bit. I don't want to spend $700. and have problems, $200. with issues is easier to accept.

 

[Picasso]

When you hit the $700+ price It puts me into wanting a hybrid system for both hydronic heat and hot water.

 

[Rednecktek]

Sorry to zombie an old thread but what's the word on current tankless? I'd rather go with a higher capacity heater, somewhere in the 3.5-4.5GPM range since it seems the way to get the rise is to throttle down the flow. My system currently has a 12v transfer pump to get the water moving, a filter, and a **TEMPORARY** cheesy little BOSS heater then straight to the shower head.

It was a trial run. ?

What I'd like to find is a system you can set the temperature on and let it figure out the flow and burn rates itself, but that only seems to be available on the larger whole-house-umpteen-zillion-BTU-expensive-doesn't-like-propane type units. Is there a $200-ish unit that you can run on propane and just set & forget the temperature or am I forced to diddle the knobs each time I want a shower? That just seems to waste what little water I have available in the 50-ish gallon tank.

Thoughts?

 

[curiouscarbon]

Dear @Rednecktek,

No worries about zombopost, this thread is right on track!

Regarding your need for water temperature regulation, I’m not aware of an off the shelf unit that would manage all that for you. As you say, “proper regulation” tends to be the realm of large units. Someone else probably knows of a unit that does what you need.

Anyways, if you are into DIY engineering on this one, I feel that an arduino/microcontroller approach could potentially yield useful results with constrained cost. If done carefully with off the shelf components that are themselves rated for proper safety, I think it’s within possibility.

If I’m understanding correctly, you want constant temperature at showerhead, not constant flow.

So at first, it would be very slow, the water at shower outlet is coldest, and flame is heater is at max. Then after a moment, the flow rate goes up as the temperature reading between heater outlet and shower inlet increases. As the temperature sensor reaches desired temperature, the flow is max and heat potentially reduced.

To do this with your current setup would seem to require a servo motor to move the knob on the heater device. That’s doable, requires care to ensure good coupling for reliable operation. Adding a PWM controller to the pump if it doesn’t have one? Definitely adding a temperature sensor after the water heater, and preferable another one for the cold water inlet.

Basically like buying some sensors, a servo, a microcontroller, and writing some firmware is the best I can offer.

Happy to help with that, though!

Good luck with your water heating project.

 

[Rednecktek]

Yup, that sounds WWWAAYYY more complicated than I'm willing to do for a camp I only get to spend a few weeks a year at.

OK, looks like I'm diddling with knobs. So, next question, is there a make/model out there that I'd be better off with? My neighbor has the EZ-202 setup and he's been happy with it, but it seems to have all the same limitations as the chinese ones (adjusting knobs, EU fittings, eats batteries, etc) but costs over half again more!

As for flow, the pump is listed at 4.4gpm so I've got all the flow I could need to a shower head. It's a 60w pump on a 40ah AGM and a 60w panel. The tank should run dry long before the battery dies by my math.

I'm kinda leaning towards the Tengchang 18l 4.8gpm unit (4 stars, 62 reviews), or the TC-Home 18l 4.8gpm unit (4 stars, 73 reviews, I think it's a re-brand), nothing else has enough reviews to give me any confidence.

Some PEX, some adapters, some teflon tape and I should be good to go, right?

 

[740GLE]

Sounds like you’re looking for a very similar set up as what we have.

We have a dug we’ll with a 10’ drop of gravity feed, it has decent flow of unlimited water, but zero pressure.

We picked up an eco temp L10 similar to what another guy has couple posts up. We picked up the eco temp branded 12v diaphragm pump. Last year we were using it for an outdoor shower before our septic was installed/bathroom constructed it worked great until we froze the unit last fall.

The L10 has a mixing valve that did adjust the output temp and flow, for consistency. Our unit froze in a 28 degree last October, it didn’t rupture any lines/piping but the mixing valve is all out to lunch and we only have the flame control and flow to adjust temp.

This year with the septic, we plumbed the camp for a kitchen sink, shower, toilet, and vanity. Ran 3/4” pex from the pump to some manifolds then 1/2 out. We ran into issues with inadequate flow for the pump to stay on, not enough flow and it’d cycle real bad, it needed something like 1.5 gmp and put vanity was .9gmp. So we added a 20gal pressure tank and now the pump only comes on every 7-9 gallons.

The 12v pump doesn’t like to push against pressure, nature of diaphragms pumps, you can tell the volume it pumps as it get closer to high shut off falls on its face, it is great running a shower and will never shut off mid shower. After some sound dampening it’s pretty quiet too. We did add an actual120/240v well pump switch (handles 12v and 8A fine so far) as I wanted to adjust low and high cut off adjustment to use the pressure tank capacity. We originally used a 35ah AGM battery and charged it at home, the 35ah was more than enough for a weekend use. We ran a sprinkler for almost 1.5 hrs strait for the seed on our septic. We now have a cheap Napa group 27 deep cycle (Xmas gift from my parents) plus a 30w panel and cheap PMW. Works good and seeing we’re only there for 3 days at a time has plenty of juice.

I would love to upgrade to a 24v 200ah Lifpo once the cabin is fully wired and a sizable PV system mounted in the roof. At that point it’d be livable no issues for 3 seasons.

One downside of the pressure tank/ on demand set up is in the summer when we’re not there the water temp rises to 80f then the heater raises it another 60-80f ouch. We usually just flush the toilet a bunch before running hot water to get the cooler water in the tank.

As for all on demand heaters it does need a certain volume of flow to kick off the igniter, so mixing faucets are picky sometime. We have the unit screwed to the outside of the cabin with stainless steel hot water heater connections running through the walls. Our intent is to pull the unit at the end of the year as the cabin will be winterized. Right now it is just using the supplies regulator to a 40lb LP tank. Next year we may permanently plumb it to our dual 100lb tanks our fridge uses

We’ve lived with the issues of the mixing valve issue this year but may replace it with like kind next year.

Hope this helps

First revision of the “solar” set up/water pump, some additions have been made since.

 

[efficientPV]

I just have a regular shower. I used to use propane but gave that up years ago because I didn't like buying propane. I switched to two tanks heated by PV, a 9 and 10 gallon in series. These were free old tanks and the 9 gallon leaked after a few years. Replaced that with a 6 gallon ECOsmart. Just about a month ago the 10 gallon started leaking. I replaced that only using only the horizontal 50L tank (13gal) as an experiment. That has worked fine so the 6 gallon is in storage for now. This fits all my needs and I keep it at 62C because I have a dishwasher. It is nice that it has a digital readout I modified to work on 12V. The 1500W element works well on 60VDC panel voltage giving me about 420W. I'm at full temperature by 10am using only excess energy so the wife can do dishes. That tank was only $150 shipped. It has twice the heat loss as the ECOsmart water heater. You may note some extra insulation added. Still have more insulating to do but it made a big difference. For me this was the absolute lowest cost way to heat water. I have a 40 gallon HW tank in the garage just for the clothes washer so my needs are quite modest for the house.

I haven't heard of anyone else using these Chinese Tanks. They seem like a good solution for very small camps. They do have a few quirks, but are so cheap compared to other tanks.

 

[Wellbuilt]

I’ve been using a ecotemp l10 and the thing has work perfect .
I just have it on the wall in the bath room , I set the burn and water rate and then there is a valve at the shower to open up the water flow.
More water it’s cooler less water is warmer , it easy really .
I do adjust the heat twice a year .
It gets cold ? here and the water tank is in the garage so it could be 30o or frozen ?