diy solar

diy solar

Socially negative impacts of solar

Basically his point, if I may butcher it a bit, is... The electrical grid needs to exist. Without it normal roof-top solar doesn't work. The electrical grid needs to be upgraded because in many places it is under equipped to deal with houses generating many times what they are consuming.
This is really a false premise. The grid can take on many different forms with distributed energy resources, all of which can work to reduce the scope and operating costs of said grid.

From a social justice perspective you do need incentives to ensure that low income housing has access to DER, as well as energy efficiency upgrades. The big challenge for the grid operators though is that they need to lower operating costs dramatically in order to stay relevant. They have a disincentive to do this, especially in the short term-- and in the medium term if they can control the legislation.
 
Not sure if anyone has seen "Technology Connections" on YouTube.

He voiced a concern about "roof top" solar going forward which I personally had not considered much.

Basically his point, if I may butcher it a bit, is... The electrical grid needs to exist. Without it normal roof-top solar doesn't work. The electrical grid needs to be upgraded because in many places it is under equipped to deal with houses generating many times what they are consuming.

Net effect, the electricity companies and distribution network operators have to invest into the grid infrastructure not only to keep expanding it to meet expanding demands, but also sureing it up for more and more micro-gen roof-top solar = more and more money.

At the same time however, more and more people who "can afford it" are putting 3-5kW of solar on their roofs and slashing their electrical bill massively and in many cases actually netting an income!

So, people putting engineering pressure on the grid are also putting financial pressure on the grid.

Here is the catch. Only those people who can afford solar have a way out from the rising electrical costs caused by those who can afford solar. It's a self perpetuating problem and without any intervention will result in massive "fuel poverty" for those who cannot afford solar.

Here is my attempt at a solution, which, honestly I would sign up to myself.

We fund and organise a charity electrical retailer. (locality specific probably). That retail operator buys and sells electricity just like all the others. However, this one gets it's incoming electricity by donation and gives that energy in units to a pool which is distributed out to other electrical retailers to reduce registered "fuel poverty" suffers bills.

Explained differently. If/when I have 3-4kW on my roof and I am over-producing. The net export units, instead of netting me about 4p per unit, instead get donated for free to this retail charity. My certificates of micro-generation are donated to this charity. When reconciled they amount to a number of "kWh" units of electricity, normally paid for in a feed-in tarif. The stream of these coming in, can be exchanged for actual electrical units from other retailers and go against poor peoples bills.

It's a very communist, socialist and "communal-energy" based.

But... you know what? I would far, far, far rather the over-production from my panels goes towards the 41p per unit electrical costs of present instead of the electrical retails insulting me with something less than 10p a unit in feed in.

It would take government intervention to prevent retailers from only paying out 4p or something for those generation units. It would work perfectly well if it was unit for unit. Or even unit for unit - transmission and distribution losses (which are normally paid by the retailer).
you're falling for the power co none sense..

they are trying to spew the same crap here on main land europe.

facts :
the transport network and generation in the whole of eu and uk ware paid for by taxes and funded by governments
during the 80's thatcher was fed the none sense idea of an "market" by her sponsors.
the same sponsors convinced other countries in the eu that they could generate and cheaper with less risk to individual countries
the "market" was liberated, and ended up to be owned by 4 mega corps, who did not invest, but did stock buy backs, and bought competitors and paid meta bonusses

now they need to invest and are becomming more and more aware that the base of their "power" , power , is slowly going away as people are more and more self sufficient in genetation

power is addicitive and profitable and they are doing everything they can to keep both, using their political lobbies to keep there
 
A lot of problems I see here. First of all, "those who can afford 3-5KW systems" are not going to generate revenue. Average home use is reported to be just shy of 900 KW-Hr per month. That's 30 per day, meaning a 5KW system will require 6 hours of sunlight 12 months out of the year. That may happen in some parts of the country, but not too many. Folks "who can afford" a solar system are going to live in larger homes, which means more energy consumed. They likely will have more electric than the average home. I'll use myself as an example, I average 2245KW-hr per month, and 77 therms of natural gas.......which has heat energy equivalent to 2247KW-hr. I can afford a 3-5KW system (and will be doing notably larger in my upcoming build), but I use a LOT more than that can provide.

The financial stress on the grid. Um....the big reason for-profit utility companies are incentivizing solar is not because they are trying to attract the investment of tree hugging Millenials. It is because the grid, and the ability to produce power, are to a point where powerplants are going to need to be built. Nuclear being one of the big ones (that frankly I think should be pushed pretty hard, but that's another discussion). There is not a single one of these utilities that want to make an investment in a powerplant that will take decades to pay for itself. Anecdote, when I was an engineer at Ford, our cost savings ideas had a target of a 30% TARR (Time Adjusted Rate of Return)........that equated to somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 months. Now, powerplants (again, especially nuclear) have HUGE upfront costs, often take YEARS to come online, and don't pay for themselves that quickly. If you give a utility company a way to either delay or eliminate the need to build a big powerplant, they are going to jump at it. So all these micro powerplants (i.e. home solar) are going to be much less costly than building a new big one. Furthermore, for net metering, they are often able to sell the power a home solar system produces at a premium, while providing power back to the home when rates are lower. So they can still make money.

As for how it affects the poor. And for the premise that regulation usually hurts the poor. That's a whole Pandora's box to open up. But the problem is less about it affecting the poor, and more about the lack of information which would allow the free market to handle this. I'm not trying to get political, I'm just presenting the other side of the coin. Low income housing is often poorly built, poorly insulated, and/or very old. Low income housing, in short, is HORRIBLY inefficient. Energy hogs. The energy usage of these places is never part of the discussion, it is just the monthly rent (or mortgage). Some places in the country have started requiring energy usage information to be provided, much like our cars have to have fuel economy information on the labels. Now, if someone is looking at either spending $700 a month in rent and comparing it to $900 per month, they may be looking at $700 rent plus $400 in utilities, compared to $900 plus $150 in utilities. That information will help the market start more properly valuing energy efficiency. But as it is around here, when looking at HVAC and other systems, the energy efficiency improvement has to be measured in terms of a few years (average homeowner lives in a home about 7 years off of memory, and for most homeowners, it is likely lower, as folks move much more frequently in their younger years, as older folks tend to settle in a house for decades). A "better" way would be to just strictly look at NPV. Is it positive over the life of the unit, rather than a few years, then buy it. That gives one a different answer.

I'd contend that the same practice would extrapolate to solar. At least where I live, solar doesn't seem to offer any sort of premium. One of my neighbors just listed his house. Same size house, and it is listed for $13/SF less than mine is valued, AND his home has a nice pool, whereas mine does not. His system would offset about $160/month in utility costs, which would be about $25K on a 30 year mortgage. But again, his listing price does not reflect any added value from his system.

So, yeah, in my mind, one of the keys to solar would be to have the energy costs of an entire house reported, which would then make it a factor in the markets where it is now considered to be financially out of reach. Not that I really want regulation, but if regulation can help make the free market operate a bit more efficiently, I think it can be a good thing (and frankly, I'd expect that kind of regulation to appeal to the normally anti-regulation crowd).

And again, I'm not trying to argue the politics of any of this, just stating factors that are not always considered.
 
That's true.
However they are far, far more influential at night taking money away from the grid.

Also, I think for the vast majority of people outside of Spain and California, you absolutely will 100% want the grid to be there when the battery is flat and it's raining in January.

Having not paid a cent to the grid all summer, you will still expect it to be there and to serve you when you need it.

While everyone else pays for

That's true.
However they are far, far more influential at night taking money away from the grid.

Also, I think for the vast majority of people outside of Spain and California, you absolutely will 100% want the grid to be there when the battery is flat and it's raining in January.

Having not paid a cent to the grid all summer, you will still expect it to be there and to serve you when you need it.

While everyone else pays for it.
How am I taking money away from the grid? I'm off grid and will never be grid tied.
 
That is known as the utility death spiral. In California there is a proposal for a large fixed charge which may forestall that happening in California.
That should only apply to those who connect to the grid.
Although,
I wouldn't be completely surprised if we don't end up with an infrastructure tax, at some point.
 
And here I thought this Thread was about all of us loners that use Solar as a compensation for having real relationships. Without solar to monopolize my attention I would be the life of the party. Instead I spend my day anxiously scanning the horizon for storm clouds.
 
Here (at least for now) I have a 1:1 net metering agreement. So if I produce 50kWh today and next to nothing tomorrow, but use 25kWh today and the same tomorrow, my bill for those two days will be $0.

I'm squarely middle class, but I could afford the solar install (paid someone to do it, permitted, etc) mainly because of a 0.99% interest rate and when looking at the average monthly electric bill vs the payment plus new average electric bill, they were pretty darn close, and I knew energy rates were going to only go up, so I sprung for it. I'm not plunking down thousands right here and now (well, I am for the extra DIY parts I'm doing now but that's a separate thing that I don't expect any ROI on). The energy rate increases came crashing through then last year and my generation rates doubled. But my bills sure didn't, so now my ROI on my grid-tie solar install is only going to come that much faster.

With current interest rates this wouldn't work as well, but I'm locked in so I'm good.

Basically - don't need to be rich to get some insulation against rising rates.
 
the big reason for-profit utility companies are incentivizing solar........ is because the grid, and the ability to produce power, are to a point where powerplants are going to need to be built.
The reason is that they are required by some states to incentivize solar. At least in California generation is deregulated and the power companies buy in the marketplace at wholesale rates around $0.05 per kWh. Rooftop solar is not economic for utilities in California but the State goals are for more renewable generation.
 
The electrical grid needs to be upgraded because in many places it is under equipped to deal with houses generating many times what they are consuming.
Battery powered Grid tie zero export System. Still pay fee to have power from the grid. But not exporting. All excess saved in batteries to be used when the sun don’t shine.
 
The simple solution to that is to not pay your bill.
They will disconnect you within 24 hours. lol
That is a short term solution that can ruin your credit and in the long term you still have to comply with the building code or have your home condemned as uninhabitable. Not a viable strategy in long term.
 
That is a short term solution that can ruin your credit and in the long term you still have to comply with the building code or have your home condemned as uninhabitable. Not a viable strategy in long term.
That all definitely sucks.
I'm glad that I don't live in California.
Around here we don't believe in big government.
And don't stand for crap being shoved down our throat. I don't have a problem paying for something that I will use. But I'm not paying for something that I don't benefit from.
 
Pennsylvania has 1:1 net metering. My 9kw grid tie system usually provides enough power to offset my use but not always. I've been supplementing my usage with the off grid system I put in so more from the grid tie system is going out and I'm carrying a surplus the power company will eventually have to pay me for I guess. I know last month the $10 connection charge was debited at the KWH rate from my surplus and I'm waiting to see if that continues.

My off grid system was originally intended and sized just for power outages but has grown to be my backup in the eventuality of a SHTF scenario. Now that I'm able to totally offset even the connection charge on my monthly power bill, it's become more attractive to use it on a daily basis.

As for the whole equity argument, and that's what this is, it's perfectly fair for me to benefit from my investment. If the grid fails for some reason, you make a phone call and some guy has to go out and fix it for you. Part of what you pay for grid power includes that service. I don't have that luxury with the solar panels and inverters I own. Saying my self sufficiency is unfair to poor people is preposterous.
 
The reason is that they are required by some states to incentivize solar. At least in California generation is deregulated and the power companies buy in the marketplace at wholesale rates around $0.05 per kWh. Rooftop solar is not economic for utilities in California but the State goals are for more renewable generation.

We're the exact opposite in Tennessee. The only thing required here is strict adherence to specific Old Testament religious teachings! Okay, kidding aside (though it isn't far from the truth), TVA controls power generation (the local utilities push you to TVA for setting up the process), and they started pushing all sorts of incentives about 15 years ago, as they were looking at having to build new nuclear plants near the existing ones at the Watts Barr facility. They had actually ceased the net metering practice a few years ago, but have since re-instated it, albeit only on a 5 year lease type basis, so they can yank it back after 5 years if market conditions warrant.
 
The reason is that they are required by some states to incentivize solar. At least in California generation is deregulated and the power companies buy in the marketplace at wholesale rates around $0.05 per kWh. Rooftop solar is not economic for utilities in California but the State goals are for more renewable generation.
The POCOs here in Texas claim to be solar friendly and all about how to reduce your usage and use, but in the real world they block you at every turn. Or least some of them do. That's how I ended up going off grid and now I am extremely glad I did so. I did it with my own money and own sweat so I'm not a fan of paying any kind of tax or fee for the privilege of using the sun.

Texas doesn't mandate net metering. They do have solar access laws that have shut down some of the HOA crap that was going on.

I personally don't mind paying a nominal amount to keep my grid connection as a backup, but if push comes to shove I could tell them to come get their meter. I don't have any plans on changing that stance, but you never know what can happen when politicians and big business are involved.
 
Pennsylvania has 1:1 net metering. My 9kw grid tie system usually provides enough power to offset my use but not always. I've been supplementing my usage with the off grid system I put in so more from the grid tie system is going out and I'm carrying a surplus the power company will eventually have to pay me for I guess. I know last month the $10 connection charge was debited at the KWH rate from my surplus and I'm waiting to see if that continues.
That's nice! I've got 1:1 with monthly excess carried fwd. at wholesale which is around 1/5th of retail plus "annual true up". Annual true up means they zero out any excess over 11 months old out to zero but I make sure to gobble that up on short winter days so it's never a problem. My meter charge of $27.50/month remains regardless but I look at it as a pretty cheap battery.
 
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The ones that can afford to buy solar will eventually need to "refresh" their panels and those used panels can be used by people that normally couldn't afford panels so I think this one may be a trickle down effect that will level out eventually. Those old panels have to go somewhere.
This is not possible here in Australia. Grid-tied solar PV installations seeking STC credits (and you definitely want those) or distribution network service provider approval for installation must comply with relevant standards and this includes the panels being listed on the current approved CEC list. Older models of panel drop off the list every month. You'd be lucky to see a panel model on the list for more than a couple of years. Old panels are really of use only to those replacing some failed units, or for the off-grid people. Else they are being recycled.
 
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