So what would you do in my boat? Only a 4kw solar. 10 to 20 kWh batteries. As budget as practical without getting crap.
Sol Ark in san diego SDGE install
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zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Not sure. A big variable is your risk tolerance for unpermitted work, which you have not declared yet in this thread.
The cost of solar panel install won’t change much.
With NEM3 or no export agreement there is less incentive to buy a fully code compliant system.
Non code compliant, maybe EG4 6000XP with PowerPro battery. SRNE 10K is a superior value but you would only have forum support.
There isn’t very much savings to be had below EG4 battery prices, as they are the floor. ESS wise there will probably be some new players in a lower by kWh or minimum system size.
The cost of solar panel install won’t change much.
With NEM3 or no export agreement there is less incentive to buy a fully code compliant system.
Non code compliant, maybe EG4 6000XP with PowerPro battery. SRNE 10K is a superior value but you would only have forum support.
There isn’t very much savings to be had below EG4 battery prices, as they are the floor. ESS wise there will probably be some new players in a lower by kWh or minimum system size.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
To clarify, there is less personal incentive in the form of financial incentives or aggressive enforcement that is hard to evade
But the power company or code police could come get you. Which is also an incentive.
If you set it up as off grid with fall back to utility instead of utility assist then it’s harder to be detected (and utility has a tough leg to stand on in an enforcement action) besides your house burning down or code police seeing it during another inspection.
I think I want full code compliant.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Ok, then there’s many fewer options. SolArk and 18kpv are the most commonly discussed here.
Wait 6-12 months and there should be build reports from the other Chinese hybrids coming on the market.
Thats an obviously battery looking export profile (Y-axis kW export, X-axis time, no battery means export will track a curve proportional to sun)
And if you get it code compliant you should just tell them and avoid issues if they detect non compliant export, also now eligible for SGIP battery credit.
As well with NEM3 it’s very unlikely for a battery less system to be rational. So potentially battery-less interconnection applications would look suspicious ?
IE that question about batteries seems academic
Hedges
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Consider SMA Sunny Boy Smart Energy. As of January, should be available with compliance certifications in place. But I don't know if it will be on CEC list at that time.
It is available up to 7.7kW (larger models coming end of 2024.) Up to 15kW of PV can be connected. Optional battery from BYD charged up to 10kW. That should be good for time of use rate shifting. Largest battery at this time I think 32 kWh, so about 4 hours PV production.
It will provide 120V 1800W backup lite initially. Expect an external transfer switch and auto-transformer to be introduced later supporting full house backup. Surge capability 9kW (meaning largest motor it could start is 1800W.) I expect price around $2500 for the added backup hardware.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
How much does the inverters and batteries cost?
Hedges
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Here is SMA-SBSE-7.7 for $3,235.00
12 kWh BYD, $7100. 32 kWh $17,600.
generationecostore.com
SMA Sunny Boy Smart Energy 7700 Watt 208/240 VAC Single Phase Hybrid Inverter - SBSE 7.7
SMA Sunny Boy Smart Energy 7.7kW 208/240 VAC Single Phase Hybrid Inverter - SBSE 7.7 EcoDirect.com sells SMA Sunny Boy Grid-Tie Inverters at the lowest cost. Order Online or Call Us! 888-899-3509
www.ecodirect.com
12 kWh BYD, $7100. 32 kWh $17,600.
BYD Battery-Box Premium HVL Battery System 12-32 kWh
Introducing the Battery-Box Premium HVL, a high-powered energy storage solution that provides emergency-backup and off-grid functionality. Its high-voltage series connection ensures maximum efficiency, and its patented modular plug design allows for flexibility and ease of use. The cobalt-free...
generationecostore.com
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
OK, so it’s +20% vs a 18kpv plus PowerPro in cost, with 10% less storage and 30% less inverter capacity. And expansion per kWh will also cost more.
But you get the backing of SMA on the inverter side wrt long term support
BYD is a huge company but there is maybe some extra geopolitical risk.
But you get the backing of SMA on the inverter side wrt long term support
BYD is a huge company but there is maybe some extra geopolitical risk.
Hedges
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And not an outdoor enclosure.
Operating Temperature 14 °F to 122 °F
Not sure if that means heated, might be.
Biggest downside for home backup would be limited surge from HV, HF SMA inverters (120% of rated).
The big upside of course is getting a listed ESS (if you use SMA HV inverter).
EG4, I think is also listed with their LV inverter/battery.
Different price-points and reputations.
Operating Temperature 14 °F to 122 °F
Not sure if that means heated, might be.
Biggest downside for home backup would be limited surge from HV, HF SMA inverters (120% of rated).
The big upside of course is getting a listed ESS (if you use SMA HV inverter).
EG4, I think is also listed with their LV inverter/battery.
Different price-points and reputations.
Did you ever make any progress?
I am in your locale. SMA makes excellent inverters and their new hybrids have an advantage for outdoor installation in that they are fanless convection cooling with a heat sink. Sol-Ark and Luxpower are outdoor rated, but use cooling fans. Outdoor in San Diego depending on your micro climate can be very hot as well as very dusty. On the other hand, if mounting in say a garage, they are great. The new SMA inverters do only use BYD high voltage batteries at this time. BYD are top rated batteries. But maybe only for indoor installation. there are local suppliers for UL and NFPA approved batteries that can be installed outdoor and will work great with Sol-Ark and Luxpower and others too.
It is my opinion that because of NEM 3.0, you should not sell to SDGE. You should only use your solar and batteries to self consume what you generate and avoid the high TOU rates. Furthermore, in San Diego county, there are several large corporately owned battery facilities being built, online already and planned where they charge up in the day at wholesale rates and sell back to SDGE at night when there is no PV so SDGE doesn't have to burn natural gas for power. Everyone wins except the rate payer in this system.
I am in your locale. SMA makes excellent inverters and their new hybrids have an advantage for outdoor installation in that they are fanless convection cooling with a heat sink. Sol-Ark and Luxpower are outdoor rated, but use cooling fans. Outdoor in San Diego depending on your micro climate can be very hot as well as very dusty. On the other hand, if mounting in say a garage, they are great. The new SMA inverters do only use BYD high voltage batteries at this time. BYD are top rated batteries. But maybe only for indoor installation. there are local suppliers for UL and NFPA approved batteries that can be installed outdoor and will work great with Sol-Ark and Luxpower and others too.
It is my opinion that because of NEM 3.0, you should not sell to SDGE. You should only use your solar and batteries to self consume what you generate and avoid the high TOU rates. Furthermore, in San Diego county, there are several large corporately owned battery facilities being built, online already and planned where they charge up in the day at wholesale rates and sell back to SDGE at night when there is no PV so SDGE doesn't have to burn natural gas for power. Everyone wins except the rate payer in this system.
Lawrence_SoCal
New Member
Also SDG&E customer and watching this thread
As for other thoughts - For utmost in theoretical efficiency, DC panel to battery makes sense. BUT, one was to consider higher voltage risk (and wiring cost), possible homeowners insurance implications, etc and panel placement options, and any chimney, tree, or other shade considerations. I could see a scenario where the DC to DC connection efficiencies are outweighed by cost and other factors. My main feedback is for OP to not assume avoiding micro-invertors/AC coupling) is best choice. I had wanted a DC coupled system for similar reasons, but in the end, an AC coupled system made more sense. it depends
However, in regards to the above reply, I disagree. NEM 3.0 intentionally encourages (as it should, and I'm no fan of CPUC) time-shifting, as CA already has excess solar mid-day for many months of the year. Those of us old enough recall when time of use rates started and mid-day M-F was the most expensive... We all knew (or should have, if one was paying attention), that CA NEM was to encourage solar installs, which it was successful at, and that a further adjustment to NEM 2.0 was going to be eventually required. NEM 3.0 was late, imo, and I'm definitely not going to say CPUC got it right, BUT the switch to self-storage and time-shifting kW to avoid grid consumption during peak hours was always the eventual target. Unfortunately, battery tech is taking longer than desired, and building codes (lumping all batteries into same risk category as Li-Ion) always take a years longer to adjust.
So, I'd argue, for OP and risk-averse spouse, and self-stated grid-connected full compliance setup, the target is best financial return, however that works out to be. Unfortunately, the ROI calculation got more complicated with NEM 3.0. But, we are still some time away from volume residential solid-state (or other longer life) battery technology, so over-buying on battery now just to avoid an occasional sell-back to local util co makes no financial sense to me. I suspect, but would require more info to confirm, that buying enough battery now to avoid Peak 4-9p TOU consumption/rates (accounting for recommended max charge and discharge settings (ie something like charge to ~80%, discharge to ~20%... or whatever specific battery chemistry and mfg recommendation is), would probably be most financially advantageous. Then, as battery tech improves and consumption patters adjust, possible electrification of natural gas appliances as well as home EV charging, combined with production and consumption monitoring from newly installed system, add batteries as it makes sense. A full PV residential lifecycle challenge is adding panels (from a non-DIY perspective) gets tricky (potentially problematic) as pre NEM 3.0, many solar installers I talked to couldn't be bothered to add panels to an existing system (much more profit in full system install). As inverters are expensive, I'm inclined to think over-sizing them may be appropriate as well, but I don't know reasonable life expectations for a quality hybrid inverter.. so that would be for someone else to chime in on
So, in a scenario where assuming paying a contractor for a full solar system (PV panels, inverter, etc), it may make financial sense to over-provision panels and inverter up-front, even knowing you won't get much, if any credit, for excess production *IF* one reasonably expects significant increases to electricity consumption in not-distant future years.
The 'trick' is to get your SDG&E kWh consumption data (simple download) for a year (probably in the 15 min increments), noting any significant changes during that time (ex adding an EV, heat pump, etc), and provide that to a knowledgeable solar installers who can analyze that consumption info and provide system sizing recommendations. Previously, one could make a good estimate based on a simple monthly statement and overall monthly kWh consumption data. Now, such simplistic summarized data isn't good enough, but the required data for system sizing is freely available. The other obvious challenge is finding the right contractor/solar installer. I'd think if solar sales rep isn't asking for such detailed consumption data, that would be a good sign company/sales rep isn't sophisticated enough to fine-tune system sizing.
I too am curious if OP opportunity passed? or still in progress? or system config selected and contracted for?
As for other thoughts - For utmost in theoretical efficiency, DC panel to battery makes sense. BUT, one was to consider higher voltage risk (and wiring cost), possible homeowners insurance implications, etc and panel placement options, and any chimney, tree, or other shade considerations. I could see a scenario where the DC to DC connection efficiencies are outweighed by cost and other factors. My main feedback is for OP to not assume avoiding micro-invertors/AC coupling) is best choice. I had wanted a DC coupled system for similar reasons, but in the end, an AC coupled system made more sense. it depends
However, in regards to the above reply, I disagree. NEM 3.0 intentionally encourages (as it should, and I'm no fan of CPUC) time-shifting, as CA already has excess solar mid-day for many months of the year. Those of us old enough recall when time of use rates started and mid-day M-F was the most expensive... We all knew (or should have, if one was paying attention), that CA NEM was to encourage solar installs, which it was successful at, and that a further adjustment to NEM 2.0 was going to be eventually required. NEM 3.0 was late, imo, and I'm definitely not going to say CPUC got it right, BUT the switch to self-storage and time-shifting kW to avoid grid consumption during peak hours was always the eventual target. Unfortunately, battery tech is taking longer than desired, and building codes (lumping all batteries into same risk category as Li-Ion) always take a years longer to adjust.
So, I'd argue, for OP and risk-averse spouse, and self-stated grid-connected full compliance setup, the target is best financial return, however that works out to be. Unfortunately, the ROI calculation got more complicated with NEM 3.0. But, we are still some time away from volume residential solid-state (or other longer life) battery technology, so over-buying on battery now just to avoid an occasional sell-back to local util co makes no financial sense to me. I suspect, but would require more info to confirm, that buying enough battery now to avoid Peak 4-9p TOU consumption/rates (accounting for recommended max charge and discharge settings (ie something like charge to ~80%, discharge to ~20%... or whatever specific battery chemistry and mfg recommendation is), would probably be most financially advantageous. Then, as battery tech improves and consumption patters adjust, possible electrification of natural gas appliances as well as home EV charging, combined with production and consumption monitoring from newly installed system, add batteries as it makes sense. A full PV residential lifecycle challenge is adding panels (from a non-DIY perspective) gets tricky (potentially problematic) as pre NEM 3.0, many solar installers I talked to couldn't be bothered to add panels to an existing system (much more profit in full system install). As inverters are expensive, I'm inclined to think over-sizing them may be appropriate as well, but I don't know reasonable life expectations for a quality hybrid inverter.. so that would be for someone else to chime in on
So, in a scenario where assuming paying a contractor for a full solar system (PV panels, inverter, etc), it may make financial sense to over-provision panels and inverter up-front, even knowing you won't get much, if any credit, for excess production *IF* one reasonably expects significant increases to electricity consumption in not-distant future years.
The 'trick' is to get your SDG&E kWh consumption data (simple download) for a year (probably in the 15 min increments), noting any significant changes during that time (ex adding an EV, heat pump, etc), and provide that to a knowledgeable solar installers who can analyze that consumption info and provide system sizing recommendations. Previously, one could make a good estimate based on a simple monthly statement and overall monthly kWh consumption data. Now, such simplistic summarized data isn't good enough, but the required data for system sizing is freely available. The other obvious challenge is finding the right contractor/solar installer. I'd think if solar sales rep isn't asking for such detailed consumption data, that would be a good sign company/sales rep isn't sophisticated enough to fine-tune system sizing.
I too am curious if OP opportunity passed? or still in progress? or system config selected and contracted for?
bfaubion
New Member
@Lawrence_SoCal @arslin @glandpuck I'm curious too. Zanydroid helped clarify some things for me. I'm looking mostly DIY, I have a 40 amp double pole I can tap into with my 200 amp subpanel. Was considering the 18Kpv, but I feel like it's overkill for me. Similar to the OP, I'm looking at just 8-12 panels, 3200-4000 watts worth of panels. I have on average 8-10kWh daily usage of electricity, with only my HVAC really adding to that significantly, but barely used here in Fallbrook with the mild climate. I too barely use over 1 kW any given hour of the day (except AC usage), and am only looking at the most a single 5 kWh battery, but only for evening/early morning usage, I don't really need a whole home backup. I'd like it to be all permitted with SDGE too.
Have considered that new Sunny Boy Smart Energy, but the battery option is a no go for me... it's quite expensive and only one option. I only see 3 DIY options for me: 18Kpv, a Sol-Ark 5K or 8K, I've also considered an Enphase IQ8 setup with the 5P battery (and I don't need their $2,000 System controller). I feel like these are probably the best 3 options.. but what do I know! I'm still new to this solar game.
Have considered that new Sunny Boy Smart Energy, but the battery option is a no go for me... it's quite expensive and only one option. I only see 3 DIY options for me: 18Kpv, a Sol-Ark 5K or 8K, I've also considered an Enphase IQ8 setup with the 5P battery (and I don't need their $2,000 System controller). I feel like these are probably the best 3 options.. but what do I know! I'm still new to this solar game.
Well, since the CPUC just enacted a fixed monthly charge of a little over $24 on top of your other charges in exchange for a supposed 5-7 cents per kWh rate, the future of residential solar is again changed. Any export value will now be reduced, whether NEM 1.0, 2.0 and maybe ?3.0. The cost to charge batteries at low rate periods and to time shift their output to high rate periods is now more important. But by encouraging more electricity use for persons to offset that monthly fixed charge, they will use more electricity which means more infrastructure use and more rate increases lobbied by the utilities.
California is a state with excess solar power and wind production in the daytime. But the problem is delivery to the consumer. Those costs are skyrocketing every year. Wherever possible, self production and self consumption should be rewarded in the state, instead it is now heavily penalized.
The advantages of self production and consumption are that the energy is clean, maintenance and upkeep are the responsibility of the system owner and nobody else shares in that cost and any connection to the grid should be made optional or low cost due to the benefits of clean energy production.
Of course, this penalizes all poorer and lower income ratepayers in the state who cannot afford to or are unable to install their own clean energy systems and also cannot afford to pay their monthly electric bills because the utility companies have absolutely zero incentive when it comes to production and infrastructure cost control. They never met a rate increase they didn't love.
California is a state with excess solar power and wind production in the daytime. But the problem is delivery to the consumer. Those costs are skyrocketing every year. Wherever possible, self production and self consumption should be rewarded in the state, instead it is now heavily penalized.
The advantages of self production and consumption are that the energy is clean, maintenance and upkeep are the responsibility of the system owner and nobody else shares in that cost and any connection to the grid should be made optional or low cost due to the benefits of clean energy production.
Of course, this penalizes all poorer and lower income ratepayers in the state who cannot afford to or are unable to install their own clean energy systems and also cannot afford to pay their monthly electric bills because the utility companies have absolutely zero incentive when it comes to production and infrastructure cost control. They never met a rate increase they didn't love.
On your 200 amp subpanel with a 100 amp buss bar, I believe the max input is a 50 amp double pole breaker and a derate of the main to 175A.
It may be that your 40 amp also requires a derate of your mains.
You are right that for what you say the 18k PV and Sol-Ark 15K are too large.
But a 12K or 8K would doo a good job.
If you are really doing a DIY, look at:
stackrackbattery.com in Corona. Luxpower inverters, batteries and cabinets at very good prices, less than a 1 hour drive from Fallbrook and all CEC and UL listed. Talk to Josh. Also work well with Sol-Ark.
I would not go with SMA now limited to a single BYD battery bank type.
Outback Radian 4K and 8K excellent if indoor mounting like garage.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Not sure which part of the question you wanted to tag onto. I'll try to provide some info.
I just created a new thread with some findings on the SolArk 5K-120/8K-230. For a non-emergency power solution, maybe it's worth considering, if there is a low enough cost LV battery. I'm trying to learn more about SolArk battery options.
For the Enphase 5P, if you don't have any solar yet, I would consider it. As you've noticed, it's a pretty OK size for dealing with NEM3 and a house that doesn't have big energy hogs like EV charging or electric heat pump / hot humid climate AC. Get a detailed BOM built out (I think Enphase has a tool, and there's some enphase forums like r/enphase where people will help you build one). To make sure you aren't missing some expensive component. I don't think you would need a MID for offsetting bills only (presumably that's what the System Controller is, if it costs $2000). Looks like $1500-2000 for bigger IQ8s.
That SolArk configured in 8K-230V is kind of similar to Enphase without the System Controller. 230V only output. It'll probably be $1000-1500 premium over the Enphase. Higher complexity installation since it is hybrid DC coupled solar instead of all AC.
The EG4 12K and the MidNite ONE might be worth looking at too. ONE should be coming out soon, not sure about the 12K.
And 2025 will probably have a couple actual V2H setups, which will shake up the market some more.
I just created a new thread with some findings on the SolArk 5K-120/8K-230. For a non-emergency power solution, maybe it's worth considering, if there is a low enough cost LV battery. I'm trying to learn more about SolArk battery options.
For the Enphase 5P, if you don't have any solar yet, I would consider it. As you've noticed, it's a pretty OK size for dealing with NEM3 and a house that doesn't have big energy hogs like EV charging or electric heat pump / hot humid climate AC. Get a detailed BOM built out (I think Enphase has a tool, and there's some enphase forums like r/enphase where people will help you build one). To make sure you aren't missing some expensive component. I don't think you would need a MID for offsetting bills only (presumably that's what the System Controller is, if it costs $2000). Looks like $1500-2000 for bigger IQ8s.
That SolArk configured in 8K-230V is kind of similar to Enphase without the System Controller. 230V only output. It'll probably be $1000-1500 premium over the Enphase. Higher complexity installation since it is hybrid DC coupled solar instead of all AC.
The EG4 12K and the MidNite ONE might be worth looking at too. ONE should be coming out soon, not sure about the 12K.
And 2025 will probably have a couple actual V2H setups, which will shake up the market some more.
bfaubion
New Member
Yeah that rate change, I was scratching my head over that.. it does incentivize for grid use, but I think that’s what they want, right.. which is odd because at the same time there is supposedly an incentive for solar and electrification.
I think the main barrier to solar is still the prohibitive costs of construction on a home, such as roofing and electrical work and needing to consult an expert for the newbie, it’s a lot to take in. I’m surprised how high the installer costs are, but with the Enphase or Sol-ark I could DIY it with some electrical check-in. I’m waiting to see how REALLY easy it will be to do a DIY in the future, and then the POCOs will really be howling over it and trying to push more fixed rates.
I was curious if an EG4 12k grid-tie was going to come out.. I’d probably scoop that up if it did. The Enphase system is an attractive offer, I just dislike that I’d have to buy their 2000 system controller to keep the inverters working in case of a black out, and being tied only to Enphase batteries. Although the 5P would work for me. It’s a very exclusive system, but I do like it.
I will probably continue with the ground-mount construction and electrical, and just make my mind up a little later. It’s a slow build for me anyways.
I think the main barrier to solar is still the prohibitive costs of construction on a home, such as roofing and electrical work and needing to consult an expert for the newbie, it’s a lot to take in. I’m surprised how high the installer costs are, but with the Enphase or Sol-ark I could DIY it with some electrical check-in. I’m waiting to see how REALLY easy it will be to do a DIY in the future, and then the POCOs will really be howling over it and trying to push more fixed rates.
I was curious if an EG4 12k grid-tie was going to come out.. I’d probably scoop that up if it did. The Enphase system is an attractive offer, I just dislike that I’d have to buy their 2000 system controller to keep the inverters working in case of a black out, and being tied only to Enphase batteries. Although the 5P would work for me. It’s a very exclusive system, but I do like it.
I will probably continue with the ground-mount construction and electrical, and just make my mind up a little later. It’s a slow build for me anyways.
