The shocking cost of Electricity

[svetz]

Thanks @dougbert - I knew this was coming, surprised to see it happening so quickly though.
I'm okay with solar owner's paying for their fair share of the grid maintenance; but I can't really see them as being responsible to pay for grid expansion when they're putting power into the grid and not consuming more power. Two thing's for sure, we need political action groups to get the word out and affordable batteries so we can get off the grid.

 

[svetz]

I just ranted Jack's video to my wife and her response was, "That's quite a racket they've got going with the moratorium that all new houses have solar. So they get to charge the solar owner with the cost of a new production facility when they buy the house (or install solar), limit the solar owner's ability to recoup their costs by controlling how much power they take, solar owners are responsible for paying for the maintenance on their system, and then they charge them on top of that to pay for the creation of other production facilities".

 

[Deleted member 783]

I just ranted Jack's video to my wife and her response was, "That's quite a racket they've got going with the moratorium that all new houses have solar. So they get to charge the solar owner with the cost of a new production facility when they buy the house (or install solar), limit the solar owner's ability to recoup their costs by controlling how much power they take, solar owners are responsible for paying for the maintenance on their system, and then they charge them on top of that to pay for the creation of other production facilities".

And tax it all along the way! The American West now stops at the Cali border IMHO.

 

[Cajunwolf]

I haven't checked on the solar taxation here in Texas. Right now all I have is one of my panels bought for the sailboat outside my bedroom window on top of the parking garage at the apartments where I live. It's to run my workbench solar wind experiment test bench. My rent includes electricity. I do know one thing, and that is we the sheeple had better start beating our so-called elected representatives and Senators over the head, metaphorically speaking, of course, about how we want to handle all of this before it's too late. Solar is getting better and cheaper by the day, and all these politicians see is another source of taxpayer dollars to waste on stupid government programs that do more harm than good, but make a few people feel good about themselves at the expense of others.

 

[Deleted member 783]

I haven't checked on the solar taxation here in Texas. Right now all I have is one of my panels bought for the sailboat outside my bedroom window on top of the parking garage at the apartments where I live. It's to run my workbench solar wind experiment test bench. My rent includes electricity. I do know one thing, and that is we the sheeple had better start beating our so-called elected representatives and Senators over the head, metaphorically speaking, of course, about how we want to handle all of this before it's too late. Solar is getting better and cheaper by the day, and all these politicians see is another source of taxpayer dollars to waste on stupid government programs that do more harm than good, but make a few people feel good about themselves at the expense of others.

Well said. I made sure to mount my panels where they can't be seen from the road, for when the assessor comes snooping around.

 

[Craig]

That's why I'm hiding off the grid maybe a new invention could be solar panels that look like trees to keep the fly overs from seeing your solar. I have to agree there is probably some legitimate value for taxing grid tie systems but please leave us homesteaders alone.

 

[Cajunwolf]

That's why I'm hiding off the grid maybe a new invention could be solar panels that look like trees to keep the fly overs from seeing your solar. I have to agree there is probably some legitimate value for taxing grid tie systems but please leave us homesteaders alone.

Yeah, but a tax for grid maintenance, or whatever, has to be adjusted by how much you put back into the system to make things fair. Some folks will add more than others and many will just draw current.

 

[svetz]

... a new invention could be solar panels that look like...

No wonder Tesla is trying to make their solar roof indistinguishable from other rooftops!

 

[Cajunwolf]

How did Solar City work? They provided the hardware and grid, and customers paid a flat rate or something like that? It looked kind of interesting and unique best I remember. Interesting idea and we need to do something.

 

[svetz]

So, a while back PG&E (California's utility Pacific Gas and Electric) was sued and lost that they hadn't properly performed maintenance that led to wildfires. So, now they're doing rolling blackouts so their gear doesn't start fires? Rollouts that affect millions? How does a rolling black out fix that? Isn't it just as likely to start a fire while the power is on regardless if for how long? UPDATE: Ah... it's being done based on weather reports, so it can be down for several days at a time. Why didn't they just spend time since then fixing the problems? UPDATE2: Rich... they don't have the money and have to go through hurdles to get electric rates increased so they can afford it. I'm not sure I buy into the "They just don't want to get sued again" because someone eating food that went bad in the fridge is pretty much going to guarantee it. There's even been a death (although authorities claim his COPD going out wasn't the cause). So, it hurts the State's economy. Lost wages, people having to throw away millions of dollars worth of food, and yet, PG&E was planning on an $11M bonus package for executives. Fortunately a judge stopped it. We so need more affordable battery technology.

 

[Cajunwolf]

@svetz

Yeah, I've been watching that all unfold myself, scarry. The problem is that their customers are actually their feedstock who they have corned by a lack of the competition that PG&E fears. The wealthy use wealth to protect their wealth, as well as massive corporate entities like PG&E. I have a friend up in Weaverville. CA, and he's trying to get out of California because of this crap.

 

[gnubie]

It's not just commercial businesses doing it either.

A conservative (which you would find confusingly called the Liberal Party) in one of the southern states of Australia slashed the electricity network maintenance budget. The result was that a SWER line didn't receive the maintenance it should have and in a particularly hot summer the line sagged beyond the correct limits allowing it to swing quite a bit, and make contact with trees that hadn't been trimmed back also as a result of that budget cut. Massive and terrible fires ensued. Conservative opposition party in Queensland is trying to wedge that exact same condition upon Queenslanders right now.

 

[Cajunwolf]

@gnubie
Greed is a global issue, so is our power. That is until, and as svetz mentioned, we have better battery technology.

 

[Deleted member 783]

PG&E was sued for a bajillion dollars over starting the Camp Fire. This is their way of giving the finger to those suing/blaming them. You think it's our fault wind blew the lines down and started a fire? Ok, we will turn off the power when the wind blows. It's a childish and dangerous reaction to public sentiment. That's pretty much the definition of California though.

 

[downshifter]

I heard on a podcast the other day that California is going to start taxing the watts that solar users input to the grid. Insane. This is one of the reasons I went all off grid-I dont want the government taking what I already paid sales tax on after I purchased it with taxed dollars. Is it 1984?

Maybe some wires got crossed. This sounded too crazy so I googled "california tax on solar sold to utility" and this is what I found:
"California passes law that prevents cities from taxing energy generated by solar rooftop projects"

California passes law that prevents cities from taxing energy generated by solar rooftop projects

California Governor Gavin Newsom signed into law last week financial protections for consumer investments in rooftop solar energy. The law, AB 1208

www.solarpowerworldonline.com

The exact opposite of taxing solar. So there are a lot of podcasters out there that are much crazier than the government, and they have a strong incentive to be that way because crazy sells -- just look at Alex Jones.

 

[Cajunwolf]

Maybe some wires got crossed. This sounded too crazy so I googled "california tax on solar sold to utility" and this is what I found:
"California passes law that prevents cities from taxing energy generated by solar rooftop projects"

California passes law that prevents cities from taxing energy generated by solar rooftop projects

California Governor Gavin Newsom signed into law last week financial protections for consumer investments in rooftop solar energy. The law, AB 1208

www.solarpowerworldonline.com

The exact opposite of taxing solar. So there are a lot of podcasters out there that are much crazier than the government, and they have a strong incentive to be that way because crazy sells -- just look at Alex Jones.

Dang! Now that was a fresh breeze of common sense! Kudos!

 

[svetz]

Sadly, the same governor that used a healthy dose of common sense for that is taking a lot of heat for PG&E; it might be the end of his career.

 

[svetz]

Here in Florida, the utility has helicopters that survey the power lines before the start of hurricane season every year. They're painted black, whisper silent, and abduct people. Only kidding, although a lot of people worry about them as they occasionally hover in place for while..

I understand PG&E has years of neglect to overcome. But......

There are so many hikers, off-roaders, and drone enthusiasts in California, you'd think that since it's a crisis someone would band them together with maps on a web site so that people could coordinate efforts on low-risk days (don't want volunteers getting caught in wild fires) to survey for where trees are close to power lines. They could take photos tagged with GPS coordinates. Sure, thousands of miles of high power lines, but a few thousand people could do it in a day. Sort of a "take back your utility" movement. And if there are no trees near power lines, send those PG&E execs to jail.

 

[svetz]

Excerpt from the NY Times:

Wind turbines, solar panels and electric vehicles spread far more quickly last year than many predictions, but not fast enough to get global warming under control.
That’s one conclusion in an annual report released on Tuesday by the International Energy Agency, which warned that current policies could cause greenhouse gas emissions to continue rising for the next 20 years. Here are some of the main takeaways.

The details: The report predicted that renewable energy would surpass coal as the world’s dominant source of electricity by 2030.

There's a lot of concern over what happens in Africa, a lot of folks are concerned about what will happen with global warming if emerging nations go towards conventional coal fired power plants.

Does it make sense for any emerging location to use coal anymore when solar is a cheaper way of producing power? The problem of course is in the cost of storing it when the sun isn't out. Battery technology needs a change to reduce the $/kWh. Still, it's a lower cost entry point and battery costs are offset not only by power generations but in that they can be a localized resource eliminating the need for transmission lines and their maintenance. Still, it takes a strong company to have a modular/expandable solution ready to go for it to be viable.

 

[erik.calco]

This landmark study concludes it was energy prices. What a load of rubbish, if it was energy costs we'd all being paying more. China is one of the cheapest countries for power and they import coal.

I collectively refer to this as slutbagonomics. It can be seen in trading markets (e.g., S&P 500 intra-day), politics and highly regulated markets.

In Ohio they introduced competition. I believe in competition. It works; but only if you get rid of the regulated part. What happened is they continued to charge a regulated portion for the utility provider, and a separate charge for the free market supplier you chose. Initially, IIRC, the utility charge was small and reasonable.

I broke down my electric bill for the past 12 months. The supplier side is 45%, and the utility side is 55%. Unlike my gas bill where I use very little in the summer, my electric bill is high all year as I have a lot of computers on 24/7. (87% higher than my neighbors)

There is nothing explaining how the utility side is calculated. However, in trying to understand solar payback, I discovered that it is highly correlated with usage, just like the supplier side.

This meant two things:

- while knocking down my supplier side from 5.5 to 4.6 cents per KWH sounded like a big win initially, it wasn't really when I realized I'm still paying 13 cents per KWH total.
- The payback for solar is calculated using 13 cents, not 4.6 cents. This is good to know as I invest in off-grid solar.

The problem with regulated utilities is their profits go up when their expenses go up. You might say, "yeah, but they need to get approval to increase expenses?" From you or I? No. Rather, from someone who's profits go up when they approve increases in expenses, of course. Politics + capitalism combined = Crony Capitalism, one form of slutbagonomics.

You see it in Russia under Putin. You see it in China under the CPC. You see it in the USA. You see it EVERYWHERE politicians and lawyers (often the same) roam the planet.