very high heatsink temperature on Victron 100/30 MPPT

[AlpineJoe]

Transistors cannot be switched without heat being generated.

That's kind of a given.

Given Victron's excruciatingly low idle draw on their inverters, I assume they probably apply some of their tricks to their MPPT to avoid generating unnecessary waste heat.

This isn't a linear regulator where the excess is wasted as heat, it's a switcher. And yes, in the linear region, a lot of heat is generated, hence why switchers turn on the mosfet as fast as possible to minimize being in this region. That leaves the RDSon resistance of the mosfet itself as the main loss, which can be extremely low. Using the lowest resistance inductor minimizes losses there and Victron might even be using active rectification to replace the flyback diode to increase the efficiency even more.

As far as 'wasting' power, the Victron doesn't have to do it by converting it to heat. It can just not convert all of it. Run the panels at not their optimum point to reduce the output current would do it. You probably wouldn't see the waste then either as your calc of input V x I = output V x I would still come out close. You'd be none the wiser other than noticing less production for the day.

 

[fat_old_sun]

On what are you basing that statement?



2483W PV
2406W battery

77W lost

77/2483 = 3.1% loss (96.9% efficient)

That's still 77W lost. That's a lot of heat. Go wrap your hand around a 60W incandescent bulb and tell me 60°C is too hot.

I based my comment on my observations with which I started this thread.

Your data shows that the MPPT input voltage was 113.9V, less than the rated max of 250V and current was ~40 Amps (assuming that your battery bank 48V), less than 50% of the rated max output current. This is the sweet spot for MPPTs. I would like to see 95+% at PV input of 225-250V & an out of 80-100 Amps.
If you (or other members) have MPPT controllers that are operating closes to their rated max specs, please share them. The two systems I was working with were operating at ~80V Input & 27-28A output (100/30 Victron MPPT).

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I based my comment on my observations with which I started this thread.

Your data shows that the MPPT input voltage was 113.9V, less than the rated max of 250V and current was ~40 Amps (assuming that your battery bank 48V), less than 50% of the rated max output current. This is the sweet spot for MPPTs. I would like to see 95+% at PV input of 225-250V & an out of 80-100 Amps.

You can NEVER have an array OPERATING at a MPPT's max voltage. That means Voc will be over-rated. Vmp is typically 80-83% of Voc and most people live in places where they need further margin for cold temperature.

The highest practical operating voltage on a 250V controller is going to be around 180V (6S 60 cell panels) unless you're in the tropics and never see significant temperature variation and can configure an array with Voc truly close to the limit. Even here in Phoenix, I need a 12% margin for near freezing temps in the winter. That means my array needs to be no more than 223V... which yields a Vmp around 180V.

If you (or other members) have MPPT controllers that are operating closes to their rated max specs, please share them. The two systems I was working with were operating at ~80V Input & 27-28A output (100/30 Victron MPPT).

So you have 80Vmp operating on a 100V controller? I call BS, or you're in a climate that never sees temps below 25°C, or you're foolishing willing to exceed 100V and risk frying your controller.

 

[Checkthisout]

I based my comment on my observations with which I started this thread.

Your data shows that the MPPT input voltage was 113.9V, less than the rated max of 250V and current was ~40 Amps (assuming that your battery bank 48V), less than 50% of the rated max output current. This is the sweet spot for MPPTs. I would like to see 95+% at PV input of 225-250V & an out of 80-100 Amps.
If you (or other members) have MPPT controllers that are operating closes to their rated max specs, please share them. The two systems I was working with were operating at ~80V Input & 27-28A output (100/30 Victron MPPT).

What do you mean here?

I have 2 different charge controllers I have maxed out a handful of times. What data are you asking for?

 

[rustythorn]

the explorist has a 'hack' for keeping things cool with victron.

couple of things i've learned about that in theory should help. most inverters reach peak efficiency [which normally also means least heat output] around 1/4 output so a 3000 watt inverter is ideal when it puts out ~750 watts. SCCs seem to be reach peak efficiency between 1/3 and 1/2 of their max solar input and 1/4 to 1/3 of max charge rate. another consideration is voltage differential. SCCs also reach peak efficiency around 1.5 times the battery voltage. these are all loose guidelines with limited supporting data. i've noticed the most complaints about high SCC temps from 12 volt battery systems. i assume this is because the voltage differential tends to be larger there?

 

[WindWizard]

but a reputable vendor like Victron should not be making controllers that waste 10-15% of the harvested power in the heatsink.

I have three Victron Controllers. Two 250/100 and one 150/100. I have been monitoring them for some time. Sometimes the current approaches maximum current of a bit over 5000 watts on a 48-volt system. The voltage is nowhere near the maximum 250 volts. It is running around 150 volts on the 250-volt controllers.

I know that they get a bit hot because I have been monitoring them by feeling the heatsink on the back. I would not consider them to be getting overly hot by no means. I can still touch the heatsink, so it is not burning hot. I have not measured the temperature, but I would say it might be in the 90-100 deg f. I do not think that they are wasting 10-15%. That would be around 500 plus watts. The heatsinks would be so hot there would be no way I could touch them, and I seriously would not be running them that hot. I know that heat destroys electronics.

I would consider the Victron to be a superb product in every way. I had some Outback FM-80s that were noisy due to the fans and were putting out more heat. I suspect the efficiency of the Victron Comptroller's is 95%+. I will check them next time we get some sun around here. It looks like a week of clouds and rain/snow in Maine.

 

[Checkthisout]

I have three Victron Controllers. Two 250/100 and one 150/100. I have been monitoring them for some time. Sometimes the current approaches maximum current of a bit over 5000 watts on a 48-volt system. The voltage is nowhere near the maximum 250 volts. It is running around 150 volts on the 250-volt controllers.

I know that they get a bit hot because I have been monitoring them by feeling the heatsink on the back. I would not consider them to be getting overly hot by no means. I can still touch the heatsink, so it is not burning hot. I have not measured the temperature, but I would say it might be in the 90-100 deg f. I do not think that they are wasting 10-15%. That would be around 500 plus watts. The heatsinks would be so hot there would be no way I could touch them, and I seriously would not be running them that hot. I know that heat destroys electronics.

I would consider the Victron to be a superb product in every way. I had some Outback FM-80s that were noisy due to the fans and were putting out more heat. I suspect the efficiency of the Victron Comptroller's is 95%+. I will check them next time we get some sun around here. It looks like a week of clouds and rain/snow in Maine.

Thanks for this. The word "hot" is meaningless as it's based on a person's perception.

No one has shown reduced output due to the cc getting hot so as you have shown, its just a perception thing.

 

[MasterCATZ]

I am only speaking of Victron stuff in this case …other brands may have different needs if any… all the gear with exposed heat sinks is mounted in small enclosed trailer that gets warm quickly after about 1:00 pm ….it certainly worked well for me.

the multiplus ( no exposed sinks) was hung on the wall like normal …under a strong load this summer I noticed 10-15% less efficiency as it got hotter.. …I used an old trick I learned using large power amps for big outdoor music shows many years ago… open the covers so the amps can breath better..

I pulled the front cover off of the multi+ and my goodness at the heat that escaped . even the internal fan ran much less . made a huge difference in temps
I like good ventilation..
J.

yep was fully disapointed when I opened my Victron Multiplus up , Like WTF no fined heatsinks in sight , for the price they charge I was expecting fully potted circuits and heat piped mosfets running to fan cooled heatsinks , so all the circuits where kept 100% sealed , boy was I wrong , even the fan inside was not even shrouded / baffled to help with fresh flow .. all the weights just in that thick case ...

now looking around to see if their was any aftermarket mosfet cooler upgrades , but I guess not , so I guess I'll just have to make some heat pipes that I can keep electrically seperated

 

[Checkthisout]

yep was fully disapointed when I opened my Victron Multiplus up , Like WTF no fined heatsinks in sight , for the price they charge I was expecting fully potted circuits and heat piped mosfets running to fan cooled heatsinks , so all the circuits where kept 100% sealed , boy was I wrong , even the fan inside was not even shrouded / baffled to help with fresh flow .. all the weights just in that thick case ...

now looking around to see if their was any aftermarket mosfet cooler upgrades , but I guess not , so I guess I'll just have to make some heat pipes that I can keep electrically seperated

First of all, what are you talking about?

Second of all, do Multiplus fail from overheating on a frequent basis or something? Were you hoping they made it to be inefficient just it required a sophisticated cryogenic cooling system?

 

[Brucey]

First of all, what are you talking about?

Second of all, do Multiplus fail from overheating on a frequent basis or something? Were you hoping they made it to be inefficient just it required a sophisticated cryogenic cooling system?

Victrons just derate and keep chugging as ambient temps increase.

 

[JRH]

yep was fully disapointed when I opened my Victron Multiplus up , Like WTF no fined heatsinks in sight , for the price they charge I was expecting fully potted circuits and heat piped mosfets running to fan cooled heatsinks , so all the circuits where kept 100% sealed , boy was I wrong , even the fan inside was not even shrouded / baffled to help with fresh flow .. all the weights just in that thick case ...

now looking around to see if their was any aftermarket mosfet cooler upgrades , but I guess not , so I guess I'll just have to make some heat pipes that I can keep electrically seperated

I’m a bit confused…maybe I wasn’t clear….all of my Victron stuff exceeds what I expected in their design ..what I was trying to say was some are designed with heat sinks you can help promote more cooling with moving air..some don’t have the standard heat sink ( multiplus I have) but use various other ways to help cool it…my ways arnt nessacery , but improve the performance in hot weather..

My gears is located in a black trailer sitting in the sun most days… that’s like sitting in a closed up black car …it can get very warm in the sunlight..
.not good unless one plans to remove the heat…I modified the air flow in and out of the trailer , installed excellent insulation , and did a few other things that keep the trailer interior at STC or below in most all situations…

In a normal home I wouldn’t have to do any of this , but anything one does to help the gear run cooler helps the overall performance and helps the batts stay happy … I have 3 temp probs inside and monitor the temp via blue tooth… l spent last summer tweaking what worked best…
This summer will be a breeze..( pun intended) …

Some may not agree with me , but I found the multiplus will run about 25 + degrees cooler by popping off the front cover plate… it dumps a huge amount of heat instantly ..seriously … lazar probe in all areas and check…before and after readings is significant
It just runs way cooler if allowed time to cool off all the metal in it.

The cooling fans internal and my external ones do a much better job at removing internal heat with the cover open…YMMV….

I leave it off during the summer and put it back in the fall, winter and spring.

As I have said before in other posts , I have a small A/ C unit I CAN turn on now and then if its really warm and needed … but it is rarely ever used…
Hasn’t been turned on this summer at all…

J.

 

[Fideri]

Those were hard to watch with absolutely nothing conclusive. Pretty janky setup... drawing exterior air in to cool it. That could ether be good or bad. I didn't see it, but if one doesn't document ambient temperature for comparison, the data have far less value.

Anybody that has hefted a Victron MPPT will note that they're pretty dense. They're filled with silica to enhance heat transfer from hot components to the surface, i.e., it's getting heat from the components to the surface faster, and there's a lower delta between the components generating the heat and the radiating surfaces. In other words, while the surface is hotter, the guts aren't as hot as they would be otherwise.

The temperature range of the MPPT is rated at AMBIENT meaning they're designed to work when the cooling air is 60°C, not the unit itself. When ambient is 40°C, the unit may throttle output due to higher internal temps. They're referring to values the user can measure, not the unreported internal temperature of the unit.

Is cooling desirable? Sure. Why not?

@sunshine_eggo
How did you know that the rating refers to ambient temps? Everything I have read (admittedly nothing official) suggests we are talking about device temps. On another point, you can read the device temp of a Victron MPPT on the optional LCD display that mounts on front of the unit. That's what I do. I also have a Quattro but it seems there is no way to get its device temp.
Fideri

 

[MasterCATZ]

the Victron stuffs only rated IP22 , minimum requirement for electrical goods , wish I had seen that sooner ,
I'm rebuilding the Multiplus inside another case with better zoning
I do not see the point in putting it inside another filtered vented case when its internal design is just going to hold excess heat
as it literally takes less that a week for wasps/hornets to make homes inside inverters around here ,
I was wondering why it always struggled compared to my other Selectronic SE32 True Sine Wave LF Inverter that finally died after ~20 years service also thinking of rebuilding it with a 32MOSFET board from China so I have a backup system

currently everything I have seen Victron release lately has been disappointing they do not even have heatsinks on their MPPT's anymore either
I guess it like most brands get a name and keep charging premium for the name while product quality diminishes
(well they are using quality parts just seem to be building them for LAB conditions and not dusty outback real world conditions ... )
its bad enougth they trick people by using VA Numbers at the 25deg rated

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Output-rating-operating-temperature-and-efficiency.pdf

 

[Brucey]

they do not even have heatsinks on their MPPT's anymore either
I guess it like most brands get a name and keep charging premium for the name while product quality diminishes
(well they are using quality parts just seem to be building them for LAB conditions and not dusty outback real world conditions ... )
its bad enougth they trick people by using VA Numbers at the 25deg rated

Which model are you referring to that doesn't have a heatsink? I know their smallest units don't but the rest do afaik (exception being RS 450 series having internal heatsinks and fan forced ventilation)

May want to look at Midnite, they have screened ventilation to keep the mud wasps and other bugs from getting in.

 

[JRH]

Which model are you referring to that doesn't have a heatsink? I know their smallest units don't but the rest do afaik (exception being RS 450 series having internal heatsinks and fan forced ventilation)

May want to look at Midnite, they have screened ventilation to keep the mud wasps and other bugs from getting in.

What I think is not understood by alot of people is not all heatsinks are visable in the form we are use to seeing…such as fins on the device here or there..…
I have been using ,selling ,installing , playing through hundreds of Crown power amps for high end live and recorded sound since about 1971…

In the old days the DC 150 and 300 series had huge dark fins on the back… worked great…excellent amp..

Later the Macro-tech and micro- tech series came out and used INTERNAL FANS and a filter for the most part..with no large heat sinks …wonderfull amps ..they were everywhere…
They were much more powerful and basically powered the whole world in sound amplification..

(I am not speaking of any of their Studio Refrence amps…) those are crazy expensive and use in very protected area..like a recording studio…super clean signal..

But around 1990’s - 2000 Crown came out with a very high tech and powerful amp that had No fans and No visable heatsinks …it was the K series …they totally kicked ass…incredible …
excellent amps ..
A couple of grand each …and no dust or bugs got inside from pulling air through it , or fan noise for church or theater installs …

They used a very thick metal case and front as the heat sink..the whole thing got hot and cooled the interior by transferring heat to the frame for disapation to the surrounding air… I have never seen one fail …they had a built in cuircuit to help protect itself from dummies…!

They required mounting with a certain distance from each other and other surfaces.
Required a certain type and size wire and used huge banana type outputs connectors.

They could only be opened by a lot of effort and were pretty much sealed up ..being sealed and tightly packed is how the heat was transferred to the frame…and it worked..

The no heat sink design on this amp ( no longer made ) is my total favorite ..it is amazing…
I still have two …( somewhere) …!

Heat removal / transfer takes many different forms depending on the device .

Ya don’t have to see a heat sink to have thermal protection if it was designed that way ..

J.

 

[Dooug]

Which model are you referring to that doesn't have a heatsink? I know their smallest units don't but the rest do afaik (exception being RS 450 series having internal heatsinks and fan forced ventilation)

May want to look at Midnite, they have screened ventilation to keep the mud wasps and other bugs from getting in.

The 100/15,75/15 and 75/10 have no heatsinks.
100/20 to 250/100 all have external large heat sinks

 

[offgridliving456]

The 100/15,75/15 and 75/10 have no heatsinks.
100/20 to 250/100 all have external large heat sinks

They don't have finned heat sinks but they still nonetheless have flat plate heat sinks. These small controllers simply don't have much to dissipate. Efficiencies are also increasing. Take the new XS buck boost charger...50A and just a flat plate sink. 98.5% efficient!

 

[Dooug]

They don't have finned heat sinks but they still nonetheless have flat plate heat sinks. These small controllers simply don't have much to dissipate. Efficiencies are also increasing. Take the new XS buck boost charger...50A and just a flat plate sink. 98.5% efficient!

Very true. I have not had any heat issues with my 75/15. Even when it was running a 330 watt panel at 12 volts of output. I have since moved to 24 volts and am no longer over paneled by 50%

 

[Suijkerbuijk]

They don't have finned heat sinks but they still nonetheless have flat plate heat sinks. These small controllers simply don't have much to dissipate. Efficiencies are also increasing. Take the new XS buck boost charger...50A and just a flat plate sink. 98.5% efficient!

Its junk
I have one of those .
The 75/15 model with out the Bluetooth function
First thing you can not program it only by the ve bus.
So really its only work with lead battery till you program it. (Not a big problem some epever do the same)

For the rest is max temp ration is 60 celcius.
But full rate function is on 40 celcius .
So for a RV or boat its junk.
Temp here inside go up in the summer to 40 celcius in the boat and the victron do not like it.
I have ask Victron about it and say its not use for that way in that high temperature .

Reason i have change it to epever
Full rate function is on 55 celcius
Max temp ration is 80 celcius.

So now i do not have charge problems.
The boat is still hot in 40 celcius with all Windows open.
But think how warm it will be if it all close.
Wel than the victron shutdown
The temp go up easy over that 60 celcius.

I do not know how the bigger Victron will do .
I do not have them and the price vs epever wel the epever win with that easy .
Wel the victron company is my country ( the Netherlands)

So my Victron 75/15 is now a spare if somting go wrong.
Same with cheap pwm for the lead battery.
On the water you do not have a store you can walk to.

 

[Brucey]

What I think is not understood by alot of people is not all heatsinks are visable in the form we are use to seeing…such as fins on the device here or there..…
I have been using ,selling ,installing , playing through hundreds of Crown power amps for high end live and recorded sound since about 1971…

In the old days the DC 150 and 300 series had huge dark fins on the back… worked great…excellent amp..

Later the Macro-tech and micro- tech series came out and used INTERNAL FANS and a filter for the most part..with no large heat sinks …wonderfull amps ..they were everywhere…
They were much more powerful and basically powered the whole world in sound amplification..

(I am not speaking of any of their Studio Refrence amps…) those are crazy expensive and use in very protected area..like a recording studio…super clean signal..

But around 1990’s - 2000 Crown came out with a very high tech and powerful amp that had No fans and No visable heatsinks …it was the K series …they totally kicked ass…incredible …
excellent amps ..
A couple of grand each …and no dust or bugs got inside from pulling air through it , or fan noise for church or theater installs …

They used a very thick metal case and front as the heat sink..the whole thing got hot and cooled the interior by transferring heat to the frame for disapation to the surrounding air… I have never seen one fail …they had a built in cuircuit to help protect itself from dummies…!

They required mounting with a certain distance from each other and other surfaces.
Required a certain type and size wire and used huge banana type outputs connectors.

They could only be opened by a lot of effort and were pretty much sealed up ..being sealed and tightly packed is how the heat was transferred to the frame…and it worked..

The no heat sink design on this amp ( no longer made ) is my total favorite ..it is amazing…
I still have two …( somewhere) …!

Heat removal / transfer takes many different forms depending on the device .

Ya don’t have to see a heat sink to have thermal protection if it was designed that way ..

J.

Yes I'm aware of the K1 and K2 amps, was always an unachievable teen dream combined with a sealed velodyne subwoofer. These weren't designed for the mass market disposable market.

The Morningstar Sure Sine series seems to be the Crown K series equivalent in the inverter world.

 

[offgridliving456]

Its junk

It's not junk. It's not a good fit for your use case. If it's 40C anywhere close to where I am, I'm leaving. Glad you found something that works for you.

 

[Suijkerbuijk]

It's not junk. It's not a good fit for your use case. If it's 40C anywhere close to where I am, I'm leaving. Glad you found something that works for you.

The problem is that Victron sell this for boat use .
And in RV and caravans.
Its have ip43 rating .
And lot are sell here on the port.
And than people come to me and have problems .
People have see that i beult my boat from new electric wires and solar panels with custome frames.
So sick of it that i walk with a temperature gun to see what is that go wrong .

For the rest i use Victron pwm dual controller and inverters with no problems.
All works 24/7 and use 24/7 .

The pwm is use for 2x lead battery for the start engine.
It only have 25 watt solar panel .
And no problems with that one
Battery are not use .

 

[Boomerweps]

Well, you got me thinking.
Dangerous!
Just ordered some stick on heat sinks from Amazon to add to my 75/15. Will add stand-off spacers for more airflow. My SCCs are in my trailer forward underbed storage area.
Would my EPEver 3210AN benefit from stand-off spacers?

 

[Suijkerbuijk]

Well, you got me thinking.
Dangerous!
Just ordered some stick on heat sinks from Amazon to add to my 75/15. Will add stand-off spacers for more airflow. My SCCs are in my trailer forward underbed storage area.
Would my EPEver 3210AN benefit from stand-off spacers?

If your mppt are in a close systeem with no air flow .
Than you need to make one .
But just see wat the temperature are ?
I do find some information for warm country to use a active fan that blow over the unit.
Stick extra heatsink you do not need to do so .
A spacer will do more with a active fan that blow under or sucks from above the mppt.
The picture is about a victron 75/15 that the back is filt with sand .

Link

Does the MPPT 75/15 need extra cooling in hot conditions? - VictronEnergy

community.victronenergy.com