Want to purchase Solar Panels from China and import to USA...

[ksmithaz1]

I consistently pull full output from my strings. Of course, I optimize array angle for the sun horizon per season, no shade. I also see by 9 AM about 1/3 of my array power coming in during winter season if there is sun.

Of course, I have to ask, what panels, series and parallel strings, any shade, panel angle and quite a few other questions.

I'm pulling 40Kwh easily off 8420W of panels when the sun is out here in late fall/early winter but skies are clear with no dust or haze helps. Only days I run my furnace is when 2 or more days of no sun is in the forecast. I only charged the battery bank 8.5Kwh yesterday and 2.9Kwh today. On November 30th, I not only supplied 28.8Kwh for loads, I also charged the bank 18Kwh. November 29th was 21.7Kwh load and battery 27.2Kwh.

455's are on the roof, fairly optimal, maybe 5 degrees too flat, due south.
Targets:
8*455 = 3640
8*250 = 2000
7*250 = 1750
32*455 = 14560
8*15 = 3750 (Used, sub-optimal orientation)
T = 18310

On 8/27, it was bright, clear and sunny all day . . . You see A|B-PV1|2 should be able to hit 3640. I do see strange spikes from time to time, discussion below



I see radical spikes, on cloudy days, I think it's due to a capacitive state in the panels while the MPPT ramps up/down. I'm guessing that since the demand was there, this allows a more immediate discharge, The spikey numbers occur as the clouds light the panels back up. So while I've seen numbers that exceed theoretical max (see below) it only happens when I'm getting volatile readings, which are extremely short lived

On 8/14 we had a lot of broken monsoon clouds


And overall production on those days is comparably poor.



I'd be willing to bet if I was overpaneled on the 14th I would have seen a pretty linear benefit from the extra panels, despite the supposed high output numbers. Using an average peak of 3000 from the 27th, a very good day. (Which I actually think is probably high).

100 - ( 3000/3650 * 100)
17.8100

I could over-panel around 20% to generally hit the theoretical spec on a perfect day, and rarely even clip, if at all. That gets back to the 95th percentile stuff. Over the period where ideal production can hit 50% (?) or better what is the sample at the 95th percentile? Is that low enough? Unless you have your panels on a tracker and/or highly optimized, I'm guessing around 25% in a normally sunny environment would create a mostly linear improvement in output. I think the spikes I see in output would mostly just flatten if the MPPT didn't take the current. I think the loss from clipping would be minimal. The larger the percentage of time below whatever threshold you pick the more linear the benefit.

I could be full of it, but in my world, I just don't see it. I'd love someone to show me a graph that shows their panels hitting 100% of rated output for more than a 5 minute interval. Neither do I think the vast majority of panels are 100% optimally facing all the time, but you can only flatten that solar curve so much.

When I have a bit more data after this summer, I plan on doing some percentile calculations.

 

[42OhmsPA]

455's are on the roof, fairly optimal, maybe 5 degrees too flat, due south.
Targets:
8*455 = 3640
8*250 = 2000
7*250 = 1750
32*455 = 14560
8*15 = 3750 (Used, sub-optimal orientation)
T = 18310

On 8/27, it was bright, clear and sunny all day . . . You see A|B-PV1|2 should be able to hit 3640. I do see strange spikes from time to time, discussion below

View attachment 180988

I see radical spikes, on cloudy days, I think it's due to a capacitive state in the panels while the MPPT ramps up/down. I'm guessing that since the demand was there, this allows a more immediate discharge, The spikey numbers occur as the clouds light the panels back up. So while I've seen numbers that exceed theoretical max (see below) it only happens when I'm getting volatile readings, which are extremely short lived

On 8/14 we had a lot of broken monsoon clouds
View attachment 180991

And overall production on those days is comparably poor.

View attachment 180993

I'd be willing to bet if I was overpaneled on the 14th I would have seen a pretty linear benefit from the extra panels, despite the supposed high output numbers. Using an average peak of 3000 from the 27th, a very good day. (Which I actually think is probably high).

100 - ( 3000/3650 * 100)
17.8100

I could over-panel around 20% to generally hit the theoretical spec on a perfect day, and rarely even clip, if at all. That gets back to the 95th percentile stuff. Over the period where ideal production can hit 50% (?) or better what is the sample at the 95th percentile? Is that low enough? Unless you have your panels on a tracker and/or highly optimized, I'm guessing around 25% in a normally sunny environment would create a mostly linear improvement in output. I think the spikes I see in output would mostly just flatten if the MPPT didn't take the current. I think the loss from clipping would be minimal. The larger the percentage of time below whatever threshold you pick the more linear the benefit.

I could be full of it, but in my world, I just don't see it. I'd love someone to show me a graph that shows their panels hitting 100% of rated output for more than a 5 minute interval. Neither do I think the vast majority of panels are 100% optimally facing all the time, but you can only flatten that solar curve so much.

When I have a bit more data after this summer, I plan on doing some percentile calculations.

I assume you're using home assistant?
I really need to dive into that. Really nice graphs.

If it weren't for a damned cloud I would have been over 100% for more than 5 minutes, graph in this link if you're interested.

Edit - working link Post in thread '1Mwh SRNE ASF48100U200-H 10kw.' https://diysolarforum.com/threads/1mwh-srne-asf48100u200-h-10kw.67809/post-929435

 

[Zwy]

@ksmithaz1 I'd give you a graph from SA but my EG4 charge controllers don't communicate with SA. Back when I had EG4 6500EX's it would max out those 4Kw MPPT's at 3.9Kw with 4240W on a string. Installing the EG4 SCC's with 5500W capability, I hit full output under peak power. I've seen as high as 5.1Kw from cloud edge effect but the 4.3Kw is under full sun under peak power those 4 hours mid day.

I think there is something wrong with your PV. Could be you aren't maximizing string voltage for example. I run JA Solar 530W panels, my Vmp is around 360V, this keeps amps low and less power loss. Or the angle is too flat. Something is wrong with it, I would expect to see much higher PV input.

 

[ksmithaz1]

I assume you're using home assistant?
I really need to dive into that. Really nice graphs.

Grafana, custom everything.

 

[ksmithaz1]

I think there is something wrong with your PV. Could be you aren't maximizing string voltage for example. I run JA Solar 530W panels, my Vmp is around 360V, this keeps amps low and less power loss. Or the angle is too flat. Something is wrong with it, I would expect to see much higher PV input.

Angle is not optimal for August, it's on my roof ~ 10 (2/12). I will not be tilting them. I was not recording until August, so we shall see...

• January: 38.4°
• February: 33.4°
• March: 28.4°
• April: 23.4°
• May: 18.4°
• June: 13.4°
• July: 18.4°
• August: 23.4°
• September: 28.4°
• October: 33.4°
• November: 38.4°
• December: 43.4°

But that is kind of my point. Unless you are moving your panels regularly, your panels are sub-optimal the majority of the time, So I may see more clipping in June, having a few extra amps available to the mppt the rest of the time is a win. I have the voltage data, but it isn't going to change anything for me because my panels are mounted flat on the roof, period.

If you have the MPPT over-paneling is dumb, but I probably wouldn't wire up and put in more AIO/MPPT's because I could potentially lose a few watts on a perfect day.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

The header on this thread is patently illegal and if caught the United States CBP will make you pay the 280% tariffs your Chinese sellers tried to get out of.

Once had a contractor try this, got caught and was told by Customs and border patrol to pay $70k of tariffs or you go to jail

 

[42OhmsPA]

The header on this thread is patently illegal and if caught the United States CBP will make you pay the 280% tariffs your Chinese sellers tried to get out of.

Once had a contractor try this, git caught and was told by Customs and border patrol to pay $70k of tariffs or you go to jail

Did you read anything in the thread?
Did you read anything about section 201 and bifacials?
Did you see the thread where a bunch of us got US stocked panels for under $0.20 / watt delivered?

 

[Zwy]

Angle is not optimal for August, it's on my roof ~ 10 (2/12). I will not be tilting them. I was not recording until August, so we shall see...

• January: 38.4°
• February: 33.4°
• March: 28.4°
• April: 23.4°
• May: 18.4°
• June: 13.4°
• July: 18.4°
• August: 23.4°
• September: 28.4°
• October: 33.4°
• November: 38.4°
• December: 43.4°

But that is kind of my point. Unless you are moving your panels regularly, your panels are sub-optimal the majority of the time, So I may see more clipping in June, having a few extra amps available to the mppt the rest of the time is a win. I have the voltage data, but it isn't going to change anything for me because my panels are mounted flat on the roof, period.

If you have the MPPT over-paneling is dumb, but I probably wouldn't wire up and put in more AIO/MPPT's because I could potentially lose a few watts on a perfect day.

Flat on the roof will affect production severely, especially in winter.

I only need to adjust tilt 4 times a year. I do this about halfway between the solstices and equinoxes.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

Did you read anything in the thread?
Did you read anything about section 201 and bifacials?
Did you see the thread where a bunch of us got US stocked panels for under $0.20 / watt delivered?

0 of them are from China. the key here is Chinese company manufacturing them outside of China with provable sourcing for cells outside of China.

section 201 is baloney if it is Chinese. very good tool for southeast asian panels.

panels from actual China are now 11 cents per watt by the container...

May have bought a panel or 2 internationally this year...

 

[Danke]

The header on this thread is patently illegal and if caught the United States CBP will make you pay the 280% tariffs your Chinese sellers tried to get out of.

Once had a contractor try this, got caught and was told by Customs and border patrol to pay $70k of tariffs or you go to jail

“Want to purchase Solar Panels from China and import to USA...”

It’s illegal to import Solar Panels from China? And you are in the solar business?

Is overstating product capabilities and continually selling defective products illegal too?

 

[G00SE]

It’s illegal to import Solar Panels from China? And you are in the solar business?

It’s yet to be known for how long. Seems to be doing stellar at the customer facing side of things.

 

[42OhmsPA]

0 of them are from China. the key here is Chinese company manufacturing them outside of China with provable sourcing for cells outside of China.

section 201 is baloney if it is Chinese. very good tool for southeast asian panels.

panels from actual China are now 11 cents per watt by the container...

I'm far from an expert but I don't see China being excluded here. https://www.cbp.gov/trade/quota/bulletins/qb-22-507-solar-cells-and-modules-2022
Anyway it's not worth arguing. The OP ended up getting them from Inxeption, a US based supplier, for an excellent price.

May have bought a panel or 2 internationally this year...

Wow, if if they are down to 11 cents per watt I'd be buying a container or 6, especially if I were in the business to resell them for a profit. It's amazing the discounts that are available when you buy in bulk on other things too.
The best part about panels is they don't require lots of tech support, they either work or they don't.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

I'm far from an expert but I don't see China being excluded here. https://www.cbp.gov/trade/quota/bulletins/qb-22-507-solar-cells-and-modules-2022
Anyway it's not worth arguing. The OP ended up getting them from Inxeption, a US based supplier, for an excellent price.

Lots of other stuff out there, Uyghur human rights bans for instance

Wow, if if they are down to 11 cents per watt I'd be buying a container or 6, especially if I were in the business to resell them for a profit. It's amazing the discounts that are available when you buy in bulk on other things too.
The best part about panels is they don't require lots of tech support, they either work or they don't.

Its just illegal if you can prove uyghur wasnt used and x 3.8 is too pricy after customs

 

[Hedges]

People smuggle cans & bottles into California for the larger CRV.
I'd think there would be a booming business shipping PV laminates from China to Vietnam, then mounting frames and adding labels.
What are we going to do, audit their books to see if they record buying cells from elsewhere? Paper and computer bits are easy enough to create.

 

[GuyG]

The header on this thread is patently illegal

No it’s not. Trying to import solar panels from China would be a royal PITA and you’d have to jump through hoops and deal with mind-numbing regulations, but it’s not illegal at all.

CBP will make you pay the 280% tariffs

The maximum tariffs are about 240% for anti-dumping and another 15% for countervailing. But most large manufacturers have petitioned, and received, much lower rates on a company-by-company basis. I remember that Longi’s rate is something under 15%; can’t remember offhand what others are, but the blanket statement that rates are uniformly 280% is bunk.

told by Customs and border patrol to pay $70k of tariffs or you go to jail

Seriously doubt this anecdote is true. As long as you don’t make a materially false declaration, there is no criminal penalty. CBP might impound imports until duties are paid, but it’s not a crime.

If anyone wants to try this, just be sure you know what you’re doing, and try to be a DDP “purchaser” instead of listing yourself as the “importer.”

 

[GuyG]

I'd think there would be a booming business shipping PV laminates from China to Vietnam, then mounting frames and adding labels.

There is. That’s how about 80% of the panels imported into the US are done, through Vietnam and three other SE Asia countries. For now.

There has been a years-long case dealing with it. Earlier this year it was found that most Chinese companies doing this were “circumventing” the tariffs. President Biden in 2022 ordered a two-year moratorium on enforcement until the case was concluded. But that moratorium expires in June.

 

[GuyG]

Its just illegal if you can prove uyghur wasnt used and x 3.8 is too pricy after customs

Is it really all that hard to write a clear, intelligible sentence?

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

No it’s not. Trying to import solar panels from China would be a royal PITA and you’d have to jump through hoops and deal with mind-numbing regulations, but it’s not illegal at all.

You're wrong, 0% of Chinese panels comply with the uyghur restrictions, already billions on panels have been sent back to china when they started enforcement 2 years ago.

The maximum tariffs are about 240% for anti-dumping and another 15% for countervailing. But most large manufacturers have petitioned, and received, much lower rates on a company-by-company basis. I remember that Longi’s rate is something under 15%; can’t remember offhand what others are, but the blanket statement that rates are uniformly 280% is bunk.

no Longi is not importing from china to the usa for 15% , they aren't importing anything from China to the USA.

Seriously doubt this anecdote is true. As long as you don’t make a materially false declaration, there is no criminal penalty. CBP might impound imports until duties are paid, but it’s not a crime.

if you get a foreign entity to make a false declaration in customs law you are liable, pls do not encourage this.

If anyone wants to try this, just be sure you know what you’re doing, and try to be a DDP “purchaser” instead of listing yourself as the “importer.”

DDP veil has been broken since 2018, https://www.kmllp.com/siteFiles/News/news.1415.pdf

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

Is it really all that hard to write a clear, intelligible sentence?

texting on the side, actually doing panel imports for a living otherwise.

 

[42OhmsPA]

texting on the side, actually doing panel imports for a living otherwise.

I might have to start doing the same.

 

[GuyG]

You're wrong, 0% of Chinese panels comply with the uyghur restrictions,

I think you’re wrong. UFLPA applies only to products from one district in China, and manufacturers had already begun sourcing silicon from other locales even before the new law took effect last June. After some initial bottlenecks, they’ve started getting their products through CBP by showing that they did not use Uyghur labor.

Longi is not importing from china to the usa for 15% , they aren't importing anything from China to the USA.

A pretty bold, blanket statement that I think also is incorrect. I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that their antidumping duty is only 15%. I’ll try to find it.

As for the article you cited on DDP, I read it. That involved a sophisticated importer that conspired with a foreign manufacturer to fraudulently understate the value of imports, in order to evade import duties. They used fake invoices, knew exactly what they were doing, and received hundreds of thousands of dollars in kickbacks to participate in the illegal scheme. Not exactly the same situation as some guy who orders a pallet of panels DDP because he doesn’t understand importing and relies on the exporter who does. Besides, my point was that it isn’t a criminal offense that sends you to jail (as you stated); the case you cited proves my point in that the wrongdoers only had to pay penalties, not go to jail.

 

[GuyG]

You're wrong, 0% of Chinese panels comply with the uyghur restrictions,

This Reuters article from March seems to disagree with you.

Exclusive: U.S. solar panel imports from China grow, alleviating gridlock, officials say

U.S. imports of solar panels are finally picking up after months of gridlock stemming from implementation of a new law banning goods made with forced labor, according to two Chinese solar companies.

www.reuters.com

 

[GuyG]

no Longi is not importing from china to the usa for 15% , they aren't importing anything from China to the USA.

Screenshot of an article suggesting otherwise.

 

[42OhmsPA]

I had found this article I was going to share a while ago but yours is better.

Longi solar modules made from OCI polysilicon clear U.S. Customs

An industry note from Roth Capital partners said the panels were released for entry to the U.S. market.

pv-magazine-usa.com

This Reuters article from March seems to disagree with you.

Exclusive: U.S. solar panel imports from China grow, alleviating gridlock, officials say

U.S. imports of solar panels are finally picking up after months of gridlock stemming from implementation of a new law banning goods made with forced labor, according to two Chinese solar companies.

www.reuters.com

I've learned over the past year it's not worth your time arguing with him. At the end of the day, "The power grid will always take you back..." I still don't understand the context of that one...

 

[Battery_Kate]

"What is the tariff on Chinese solar panels?
Some solar cells and modules exported from Southeast Asia could now face tariffs as high as 254%

Any links for this news?