What's so bad about selling to utility wholesale?

[1201]

wow those are cheap.

Its still an 8 year ROI with a hope to double your money over 20 years.

It's only 8 years if you are selling all the production. What you self consume saves way more per kwh

 

[justinm001]

So build a system based on what you consume because you won't really make a profit selling to utilities

 

[Bkord]

 

[45North]

I think it's the principle of the thing:they resent getting less than perceived "market value".

• That plus the fact historical rates were higher, so there is resentment and nostalgia.
• And there is more solar being produced. I understand some European countries stopped buying customer-produced power completely!
• General distrust of the power company in general eg California where new houses must provide solar at homeowners expense.
• Lack of empathy for power companies need to do something about shortages and "brownouts"

 

[1201]

So build a system based on what you consume because you won't really make a profit selling to utilities

Well it depends on the cost and the buyback rate, no?

 

[justinm001]

Sure 7/8/9/10 year ROI depending on a lot of variables

 

[lscotte]

I'd be fine with getting paid a wholesale rate by my utility - but they pay me only a flat rate yet force me into a time of use plan for what I buy from them. And they raise rates every year while lowering what they pay for what I send back to the grid. Fair is fair, but the utilities aren't playing fair.

 

[J.H.]

Once we get over the shock of the demise of 1:1 net metering, we then have to ask- Whats so bad about selling wholesale? Power production companies sell wholesale and I assume they turn a profit, so can wholesale residential solar be profitable?

Obviously, most people cannot generate solar at a profit, even at 1:1 net metering. By the time you factor in installer profit, financing, permitting ,etc, it can often be a net money loser.

But this is the diy forum. We can buy panels for $.40 per watt, grid tied inverters for $.15 per watt etc.After tax credit, wouldn't it be possible to see net cost of $.02-$0.03 per kWh? So would it make sense that if one can sell to the utility for more than your cost, still load up on solar and go grid tied, insteading of trying to use every single kWh we produce and spending tons on battery storage?

Let me know your thoughts

For the small “screw you money” they offer , I’m not interested in even gettin a check in the mail from those people…to much work to open the letter…I want to be totally be off their radar… I am nobody.. I don’t exist…they are nobody ..they don’t exist ..
I don’t wanna know them and don’t want them to know me…
that’s how I feel about sharks…

I tried to be sorta clear on my feelings here…..Do you kinda get my drift..?

 

[1201]

Sure 7/8/9/10 year ROI depending on a lot of variables

7-8 years is a good roi

 

[1201]

For the small “screw you money” they offer , I’m not interested in even gettin a check in the mail from those people…to much work to open the letter…I want to be totally be off their radar… I am nobody.. I don’t exist…they are nobody ..they don’t exist ..
I don’t wanna know them and don’t want them to know me…
that’s how I feel about sharks…

I tried to be sorta clear on my feelings here…..Do you kinda get my drift..?

But you're still connected to their grid?

 

[J.H.]

But you're still connected to their grid?

Maybe …maybe not… depends on the conditions… I can easily see why it’s smart to have a reserve access to the grid and not use but 10% of what you need for convenience…( like a back up) while you generate most of your needs..
I can also see if conditions exist and one has the money to build a “whale “ of a system and just forget the poco,and their little song and dance BS ….. then there is merit to that mindset…

all I am saying is offering their customers a penitence of value for what they sell it to you for, is a show of disrespect…
in this country recently we have all gotten used to being disrespected by the big boys ..and now accept it as the norm…
when I am treated with disrespect I will walk away…screw em… I will find a different way … and keep my respect intact.
amazingly 50 years ago everyone thought that way… not today ..!!!

 

[J.H.]

Since I am not doing solar to save money or the planet I am happy to avoid grid tie complications. I do acknowledge that without the push from all the subsidized residential grid tie solar of the last 2 decades that many of the things I use now would not be readily available or cheap.

“or the planet…“

haaaa … that’s good…at least your aware and awake…

 

[1201]

Maybe …maybe not… depends on the conditions… I can easily see why it’s smart to have a reserve access to the grid and not use but 10% of what you need for convenience…( like a back up) while you generate most of your needs..
I can also see if conditions exist and one has the money to build a “whale “ of a system and just forget the poco,and their little song and dance BS ….. then there is merit to that mindset…

all I am saying is offering their customers a penitence of value for what they sell it to you for, is a show of disrespect…
in this country recently we have all gotten used to being disrespected by the big boys ..and now accept it as the norm…
when I am treated with disrespect I will walk away…screw em… I will find a different way … and keep my respect intact.
amazingly 50 years ago everyone thought that way… not today ..!!!

So, in other words, you're still connected to their grid.

 

[J.H.]

So, in other words, you're still connected to their grid.

Of course… I just got my system working 60 days ago…first month I cut my grid usage by 50 %… I see where im going ..I see how to do it… what is your point… ? ….everyone starts somewhere..
should I just surrender …become a sheep …..bow down… baaaaa….hell no.!

 

[1201]

Of course… I just got my system working 60 days ago…first month I cut my grid usage by 50 %… I see where im going ..I see how to do it… what is your point… ? ….everyone starts somewhere..
should I just surrender …become a sheep …..bow down… baaaaa….hell no.!

My point is that's a lot of off grid bravado for still being fully grid dependent.

 

[Steve Fractals]

What complications are those? From my perspective, grid tie is far simpler than offgrid

The main complications for grid tie are (defo in my country) is that you can only use equipment from companies that have paid massive amounts to get products licensed, we then have to have the install licensed as well. This makes the price of a system very expensive to the point that it would take you the expected life cycle e.g. 25 years to break even and so is unworkable. My country will not allow any DIY system to export/sell back to the grid.

My DIY system payback time is around 2 years before I break even and it starts saving me money.

 

[1201]

The main complications for grid tie are (defo in my country) is that you can only use equipment from companies that have paid massive amounts to get products licensed, we then have to have the install licensed as well. This makes the price of a system very expensive to the point that it would take you the expected life cycle e.g. 25 years to break even and so is unworkable. My country will not allow any DIY system to export/sell back to the grid.

My DIY system payback time is around 2 years before I break even and it starts saving me money.

Oh yeah that sounds like going with an off grid system makes the most sense there. Which country is this?

 

[J.H.]

My point is that's a lot of off grid bravado for still being fully grid dependent.

I am not fully grid “dependent” at all …I am able to loose all grid power today and still live comfortably…for a very long time.… Years….but it would take me much longer to achieve my end goal.
(more panels and the infrastructure for them is about all that’s needed.)…everything else is in place and secured.

another thing I have reconsidered after listening to many real life experiences is that
it is probably a smart idea to leave service access accessible and active…if for no other reason than another level of backup…avoiding future inspections and code upgrades or if I sold this place it would need grid based power ……i agree that does make good sence..

just like buying spare duplicate parts for any single device that could fail and shut the system down.. spare SCC,,, charger/inverter/ ,,, combiner box or alternate way of wiring with the needed wire and terminations and fuses..
if I gave the impression that I wanted to cut ties with the grid totally, that’s more of a desire than a practical reality ..
unless the grid were to totally crash ,I will maintain a minimally active acct..
my goal is about a 90/10 ratio of use…
lifes full of compromises.
J.
.

 

[TomC4306]

My point is that's a lot of off grid bravado for still being fully grid dependent.

Why are you so bent on convincing readers of the beneficence of the electric companies?

I'm still connected as a backup for low solar periods. I'm all self consumption. About a year and a half now. Electric bill went from $235 a month to $110 a month. Net of tax credit cost about $5k. ROI under 4 years.
No permits, no contract.
Power company pays less than $.04/kwh.
My daily average production could be about 24kwh across the year.
24kwh x $.04 is 96 cents a day..
x30 days, less than $30/month
About $350/year. 14 year ROI. Assuming no repairs.

Food, fuel, ammo for a crisis. Solar is my fuel and I keep the inventory rotated daily.

 

[1201]

Why are you so bent on convincing readers of the beneficence of the electric companies?

I'm still connected as a backup for low solar periods. I'm all self consumption. About a year and a half now. Electric bill went from $235 a month to $110 a month. Net of tax credit cost about $5k. ROI under 4 years.
No permits, no contract.
Power company pays less than $.04/kwh.
My daily average production could be about 24kwh across the year.
24kwh x $.04 is 96 cents a day..
x30 days, less than $30/month
About $350/year. 14 year ROI. Assuming no repairs.

Food, fuel, ammo for a crisis. Solar is my fuel and I keep the inventory rotated daily.

Again more off grid bravado from someone who depends on the grid.

Obviously your objective is to be ready for the coming apocalypse. Very different from the stated objective in this thread.

 

[Mattb4]

That's my point is, grid tied can be easy and still profitable even with net metering going away.

Perhaps. I was never a fan of forcing the utilities (which meant all the customers not using solar grid tie) to subsidize the grid tie industry. For all I care they could charge folks that want to grid tie instead of paying them. Imagine how that would change the payout calculations?

 

[1201]

Perhaps. I was never a fan of forcing the utilities (which meant all the customers not using solar grid tie) to subsidize the grid tie industry. For all I care they could charge folks that want to grid tie instead of paying them. Imagine how that would change the payout calculations?

Actually, they do charge some of us. My co-op has a $15 a month connection fee for grid tie owners.

 

[Hedges]

Net metering means I don't have to do zero backfeed or on-line UPS.
If DIY power costs me $0.03/kW to produce and utility charges me $0.25 to $0.50, I can overpanel to the point of discarding (backfeeding even if zero credit) 90% of what I produce and still break even. But for now I do get good credit - when NEM 3.0 hits me the credit will be slashed.
(That would be 10x overpaneled; I am maybe 2x or 3x overpaneled, and with net metering use the surplus for heat in the winter.)

Then when grid is down and system switches to grid-backup mode, I have surplus power, can properly recharge my small lead-acid battery while operating loads. For backup operation during winter I would use gas heat rather than electric. If heavy overcast reduces production 90%, then I would struggle; more efficient refrigeration and turning off yard lights might fix that.

For all I care they could charge folks that want to grid tie instead of paying them. Imagine how that would change the payout calculations?

We just need a power blending mechanism that lets us throw an extension cord over fence to our neighbor, and have our surplus reduce his consumption instead leaving through our front door and entering through his. Same difference, but the utility is no longer "forced" to "buy" our surplus.

Alternatively, let's have a neighborhood collective. Utility gets to charge the neighborhood based on a meter for the transformer feeding us. We allocate the bill amongst ourselves based on individual meters. Utility owns the last 100' of infrastructure, you say? Ok, let's do that for an apartment building or condo complex. Submeter the units, and utility only deals with the net consumption, we share electrons.

 

[Zwy]

With an off grid system you are not selling any solar to the grid, so on those days when the battery is full, the loads are low, all that excess capacity is going to waste.

Dump loads, after that who cares. We increased our electric consumption since installing an off grid system. I have choices to shift to alternatives that are dump loads. Every Kwh I can use for dump load is that much quicker payback. My house has been running off grid with utility power turned off.

In this state with the utility companies here, you are limited to 80% of yearly usage when installing grid tie. If you use 20Mwh, then you are limited to producing 16Mwh. At any time your bank is more than 2000Kwh, they get the power for free unless you have a commercial sell agreement but those all were eliminated in the last few years as power generators went with wind.

You can install grid tie sell, however you don't control the rules and those rules can change at any time to your detriment.

 

[1201]

---

Net metering means I don't have to do zero backfeed or on-line UPS.
If DIY power costs me $0.03/kW to produce and utility charges me $0.25 to $0.50, I can overpanel to the point of discarding (backfeeding even if zero credit) 90% of what I produce and still break even. But for now I do get good credit - when NEM 3.0 hits me the credit will be slashed.
(That would be 10x overpaneled; I am maybe 2x or 3x overpaneled, and with net metering use the surplus for heat in the winter.)

Then when grid is down and system switches to grid-backup mode, I have surplus power, can properly recharge my small lead-acid battery while operating loads. For backup operation during winter I would use gas heat rather than electric. If heavy overcast reduces production 90%, then I would struggle; more efficient refrigeration and turning off yard lights might fix that.



We just need a power blending mechanism that lets us throw an extension cord over fence to our neighbor, and have our surplus reduce his consumption instead leaving through our front door and entering through his. Same difference, but the utility is no longer "forced" to "buy" our surplus.

Alternatively, let's have a neighborhood collective. Utility gets to charge the neighborhood based on a meter for the transformer feeding us. We allocate the bill amongst ourselves based on individual meters. Utility owns the last 100' of infrastructure, you say? Ok, let's do that for an apartment building or condo complex. Submeter the units, and utility only deals with the net consumption, we share electrons.

Yeah if one could sell to the neighbors it would be even more profitable. I think an apartment would be a good case study