"Why I think it is illogical to purchase an electric truck"

[D71]

yeah dead on arrival cars are pretty common and not isolated to the EV world. I had a new ICE car which the dealer needed to buy back because it just randomly shut down while driving and the error was never to be found. They changed like a hundred sensors and wires. When I stranded once in front a train crossing I had enough. Never again a internal combustion engine, their main output is heat and vibration. Only a fraction actually goes into driving the car.

Don't know what's up with chargers in the West. I'm in Florida and have a hard time finding a broken one, there are free chargers everywhere. I haven't paid for driving my EV in 2+ years.

Weight is a major problem for EV the ford f150 electric is stated around 6000-6500 pounds However think diesel and such f250 are much heavier f150 electric vs f250 diesel. Over all ... Weight is and has always been a major factory with any performance whether mpg or speed runs. Ppl actually discovered after the smog beat in the 1970's that reducing hp caused more smog. A sbf 302 put out about 135 hp and a sbc 350 put out around 160 hp. Pitiful. The science and engineering failed us.... in the 1970s. Gm abandoned their electric car... in 1970's. As far as that goes we had electric cars way back in early 1900's
The marketing aimed at women - charge, jump in, and ride... the electric starter motor had not been applied to ICE. Women did not like starting ICE with hand crank - lot of injuries from it too. I think we made a mistake not to keep making the ev way back then. Gm had electric in 1970's and 1990's. Battery technology slumped. NASA was good about solving problems remember the moon rover? How much did it weight and how did they transport it to the moon?

History of the electric vehicle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Before Tesla: Why everyone wanted an electric car in 1905

Electric cars might seem like the vehicles of the future, but they are actually a status symbol of the past.

archive.curbed.com

pay attention to who is going to the moon. We have not been back in over 50-55 years. China and russia have un-manned lunar - moon rovers. Wonder why they are not driving around like we did up there with astronauts way back 1970's?

Lunar rover - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Agree:
The extra large batteries if not needed are a waste - more weight more stress on all the ev mechanicals. Why brought up electric planes. You got it. Most ppl miss that for weight.

Some ev are very impressive in fact right now the tesla car can blister most ice in a straight out acceleration runs ... speaks volumes. Now
if the weight can be reduced then more mileage per say and more speed.

 

[aenyc]

All you need to know about electric "trucks"

 

[eXodus]

All you need to know about electric "trucks"

the average pickup owner tows like 5 times in the life of the truck. Hardly something I would put down as "key requirement"

What people do and what their perception is what they do are two very different things. When was the last time you towed a car trailer with your pickup?

Agree:
The extra large batteries if not needed are a waste - more weight more stress on all the ev mechanicals. Why brought up electric planes. You got it. Most ppl miss that for weight.

BMW went out of their way to design a lightweight EV with the i3 and i8. You got pretty impressive performance and range numbers for their miniscule battery sizes. The offer tiny gasoline rang extenders for the once in blue moon case, that you drive more then the average 40 miles a day that the typical north American gets around.

Yet they got shunned by fossil fuel lobby sponsored mainstream media which is preaching - "more range is needed" and EV only makes sense when you can go 200 miles, then 300 miles, now 500 miles - next year it will be 1000 miles and the year after 2000 miles - keep moving the goal post to make unrealistic.

Mazda came up with a serial Hybrid and I think RAM also has EV-Pickup with a Generator in planning.

At the current state of battery tech I think you can get 95% + of your drives done with 100 miles of range and just have a small gas generator sleeping under your hood as piece of mind. A gas engine which doesn't run is perfect for the environment and not lugging around 2000-3000 lbs of unused battery is really good for the energy efficiency.

 

[aenyc]

Its more than just towing. Battery performance gets a kick in the face with any kind of real temperature drop, or when heat has to be used in colder climates.
But, as the guy in the video says, if you need a truck but you are not doing any truck things (such as towing weight or carrying load), then yeah, its great for virtue signalling (Because if you want torque, might as well get a Tesla S or BMW i4 or something like that)
The energy density of batteries will make any kind of Electric Trucking completely unsustainable in a free market economy. Not until there is a fundamental breakthrough with battery tech (and then we must solve the issue of where electricity will come from and upgrading the grid).

Your generator idea is basically gas or diesel electric - I think this idea is sound (and probably is the future, its no wonder that diesel electric locomotives are nearly the most efficient vehicles we have today). Unfortunately it is not the goal of powers that be to give you near unlimited range and freedom, which is why we are not seeing much development in this area.

 

[eXodus]

Your generator idea is basically gas or diesel electric - I think this idea is sound (and probably is the future, its no wonder that diesel electric locomotives are nearly the most efficient vehicles we have today). Unfortunately it is not the goal of powers that be to give you near unlimited range and freedom, which is why we are not seeing much development in this area.

thanks. A ICE generator optimized to run in a very narrow band - can put out 60% efficiency (locomotive, ships) from a liquid fuel - while most regular cars/trucks barely hit 20%.
Combing that fuel savings for the 5 trips a year where you tow or drive more then 100 miles a day. Your fuel savings are immense.

When I look at the BMW i3 driver statistics which are driving a car with around 110 miles of range a 2.4 gallon gas tank. (yes 2 point 4 gallons) - they fill up on average 4 times a year. While totaling 12,700 miles. 10 Gallons for 12,700 miles - a very light car - no range anxiety. Low electricity use.

Ram 1500 EV To Get Range-Extender Option, Stellantis CEO Confirms

The Ram 1500 Revolution BEV production model will come with an all-electric powertrain as standard; the range extender will be offered as an option.

insideevs.com

2023 Mazda MX-30 PHEV Brings Back Rotary Engine As Range Extender

Unlike most plug-in hybrids on the market today, Mazda's MX-30 relies on a series hybrid drivetrain in which the wheels are always driven by the electric motor.

insideevs.com

 

[D71]

I kind of prefer the hybrid but then reality - get a double whammy maintaining both systems. i absolutely hate the engine off engine on .... stop start feature of new cars. We found out with locomotives that it actually raises the emission out put and In particular with the diesel engine in a locomotive. There is also the chance it won't crank back up and dead duck in water via starter and battery wear at some point like happened with locomotives. We also built an all electric locomotive..with batteries diesel engine removed - lead acid batteries replaced engine was about 15-20 years ago.. money came from Fed Govt to go green and contracted for the all battery loco. Weight is sometimes very beneficial with locomotives ....to a point. Most ppl don't know... the big hp diesel engine just spins a big alternator. A modern diesel electric locomotive is just a huge 450,000 pound rolling electric generator vehicle with 3 phase ac inverter controlled traction motors.....oodles of computer control systems tied with about every communication method known ...fibre optics to fire the tm igbts... . I use to tease ppl if they put diesel geberator in their ev it would be locomotive like. ??
The picture below of the ev locomotive is one of newest version. Wabtec is from Westinghouse fame. Man got rich off locomotive brake designs in 1800's converted over from pneumatic to pneumatic electric. Branched out. They took his company from originator Mr Westinghouse.... Seems to of happen a lot in USA business owners and inventors screwed over. Him and Tesla worked together. Another inventor screwed but Elon Musk used his name to build another fortune. Tesla died in small apartment broke..... typical

Btw most Diesel electric loco engines are around 4000-5000 hp so they drink a lot of fuel. They carry about a gallon or less of fuel per hp in the fuel tank.

back to cars-trucks.
The ford maverick hybrid is interesting especially for a cheap truck-el camino el ranchero car truck. It does get good mileage. Shame it is not ev awd.... faster. Definitely a motorized wheel barrow.

the press wants a car they never have to fill up. They were sold the idea of a nuclear powered car. I do not - never ever see that happening. Unless we can figure out a new shielding that does not exist.

I doubt aliens will land and save the day. Sure would be nice. ??

 

[aenyc]

Interesting discussion on all the nuances

https://mishtalk.com/economics/question-of-the-day-how-fast-will-the-shift-to-evs-happen

https://mishtalk.com/economics/largest-us-grid-supplier-warns-of-an-energy-shortage-due-to-undeliverable-mandates

 

[eXodus]

I kind of prefer the hybrid but then reality - get a double whammy maintaining both systems. i absolutely hate the engine off engine on .... stop start feature of new cars.

this is not what I'm taking about. That is a regular hybrid you have in mind - I'm talking a true generator serial hybrid.

Turn on - run full speed to recharge the battery. Stop - wait an hour or longer - start - run full speed to recharge - repeat.

Or like in the BMW i3 you can decide to enable a "hold state of charge" for long interstate drives - so the generator runs the whole time while you are driving fast, when you get into city traffic - close to your destination you turn the generator off and drive electric.

 

[eXodus]

Interesting discussion on all the nuances

https://mishtalk.com/economics/question-of-the-day-how-fast-will-the-shift-to-evs-happen

https://mishtalk.com/economics/largest-us-grid-supplier-warns-of-an-energy-shortage-due-to-undeliverable-mandates

I've used to work in energy economics and write those predictions.

Lets say this: All models are wrong - but some are useful.

Currently more electric cars are sold then we predicted when looking from my 2012 studies. But the charging infrastructure is a bigger headache then anyone ever anticipated. But in different way then you might think.

We have way more charger then predicted - but they are perpetual broken and people are plain using EVs wrong. Instead of charging every day at home and work and leaving with a full tank - they still handling charging like with ICE cars - when the tank/battery is empty people are trying to fill up fast. And EV manufacturers make it even worse with Free- DC charging plans.

We completely underestimated the resistance on that habit. There should be slow chargers at every parking spot - DC fast charging should be the exception, and now governments worldwide are pouring billions in building charging infrastructure to support an old habit...

 

[D71]

this is not what I'm taking about. That is a regular hybrid you have in mind - I'm talking a true generator serial hybrid.

Turn on - run full speed to recharge the battery. Stop - wait an hour or longer - start - run full speed to recharge - repeat.

Or like in the BMW i3 you can decide to enable a "hold state of charge" for long interstate drives - so the generator runs the whole time while you are driving fast, when you get into city traffic - close to your destination you turn the generator off and drive electric.

You are back to generating CO2... one of the pushes to ev is to cut CO2 go green. I realize most green folk don't realize we may go green but others are not. They have picked up supplying us and producing now what we once did. A wash.

mounted in the long hood end of some locomotives is a small by locomotive standard Kuboto diesel power generator. It charges the batteries circulates cooling water to keep main engine warm. Cold engines produce more emissions..... cold loco engines are deregulated until warm for max power output.

there have been ppl do that with golf carts. Small generators on them. You start getting back into xtra weight vs power Output The golf carts make excellent platforms to try experiments... some golf carts use regen braking. With locomotives it is called dynamic braking and is dissipated into heat with grids and grid blowers... the variable braking effect is slow head of train. What would have been idea was couple diesel electric to battery ev locomotive and use braking forces to recharge ev loco. It is extremely hard to harness the dynamic braking energy from a loco.

just chit chatting.

 

[eXodus]

You are back to generating CO2... one of the pushes to ev is to cut CO2 go green. I realize most green folk don't realize we may go green but others are not. They have picked up supplying us and producing now what we once did. A wash.

you need to look at Total CO2 over the lifetime of the vehicle.

It will be a couple of years for the grid completely go green. A heavy long range EV needs more kWh of not green electric then a light weight EV with less range. When a small generator saves CO2 by not running most days (just for that piece of mind that people apparently need) the total math is better for the climate.

We are talking pickup owners which think their once towing in a blue moon is the deciding metric if they buy EV or ICE. So you need change a lot of peoples mind just to switch to EV. A serial hybrid with a decent battery is a important stepping stone, most regular hybrids which drive the wheels are just disguised ICE cars with greenwashing. A serial Hybrid will produce about 95% less CO2 then a ICE truck. So big win for the climate.
And when you don't belief in that - it's much cheaper to run. Better for you wallet. A generator has much less maintenance then ICE powerplant since it only operates at one speed and is decoupled from the transmission shocks.

What would have been idea was couple diesel electric to battery ev locomotive and use braking forces to recharge ev loco. It is extremely hard to harness the dynamic braking energy from a loco.

yeah charging at very high current is hard on current batteries. But there are slowly chemistries and super capacitors coming along which could do just that.

 

[teal95]

In smaller road vehicles the only time high power is used is for acceleration. For large long distance vehicles (semis and trains) they are using a large portion of their output for the entire time they are driving. Trains can run close to their highest power settings for the entire trip. Hybrid doesn't help much there.

 

[LeoThomson]

 

[aenyc]

I've used to work in energy economics and write those predictions.

Lets say this: All models are wrong - but some are useful.

Currently more electric cars are sold then we predicted when looking from my 2012 studies. But the charging infrastructure is a bigger headache then anyone ever anticipated. But in different way then you might think.

We have way more charger then predicted - but they are perpetual broken and people are plain using EVs wrong. Instead of charging every day at home and work and leaving with a full tank - they still handling charging like with ICE cars - when the tank/battery is empty people are trying to fill up fast. And EV manufacturers make it even worse with Free- DC charging plans.

We completely underestimated the resistance on that habit. There should be slow chargers at every parking spot - DC fast charging should be the exception, and now governments worldwide are pouring billions in building charging infrastructure to support an old habit...

I call BS on that one.
Why don't you dispute what Mish has summarized with a single counter argument?
To summarize here there are 3 major outstanding obstacles:

1. Battery Technology is not ready for mass EV usage for several reasons
a. Lithium Tech is unsustainable because there is not enough to power even half of US cars
b. Lithium tech is extremely bad for environment and is extremely toxic (https://archive.org/details/greentotalitarianism/Screenshot (1448).png) (Look up how much water has to be used to extract the Lithium and dont forget what the machinery doing this is using. Hint: Its not electric. (this is also why electric heavy equiment is pipe dream https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/11...too-quickly-during-snow-plowing-says-commish/) Add to that all other environmental pollution that all the "green tech" requires and dependencies on rare earth metals, etc.
c. Upcoming Sodium tech is inferior to energy density and weight ration - ie. not suitable for EV usage.
d. You would need a big breakthrough in energy density vs weight and this has not happened and there is no guarantee that it will by 2030 or 2230.


2. Electricity Demand - Current Tech can not generate sufficient amount of electricity required for EVs to become dominant
a. Even with current setup (generalized term for existing grid capacity) there is not nearly enough power to supply the demand.
b. Switching to renewables will further reduce this power. Switching to renewables also presents several tangent problems such as storing excess energy that is produced to be used when renewables are not available which brings us back to the battery technology limitations and while stationary batteries can ignore the weight/density issue (to a certain extent), the pollution to the environment during manufacturing and disposal at EOL remains very much an issue, even more so due to much larger stationary battery arrays required.
c. Very basic fact that is often ignored, that even under absolute ideal circumstance, renewables can only generate around 5% of required capacity at CURRENT level. This is why California is such a great example - they mismanaged their infrastructure by requiring renewables, causing brownouts and blackouts because renewables simply dont produce enough. This is exactly what Mish is discussing in one of his points



3. Grid capacity - There is not enough capacity for aging grids to carry the required power, and upgrades are extremely costly. Who is going to pay for it? What about things like road taxes, which are built into fuel price. Once all of this is calculated in, EVs will cost multiples of what an ICE car costs today, and dropping subsidies, will make it even more so (Such as example with Germany where people would not buy EVs without subsidy due to overall cost being higher than ICE and this is just ONE example).

What this all comes down to, is cost. After all is said and done, at current technological level, expect to pay a lot more for electricity. A lot more. The question then becomes, who is going to buy an EV if cost to own one is 3-5x the cost of ICE? I think the answer to that is clear.

And these are just most basic, high level issues.

 

[teal95]

Something people miss with PHEV is the maintenance of the ICE engine even if always running as an EV. Gas has a rather short lifespan so the engine needs to use up the gas at some point and the engine needs to be fully warmed periodically to cook the gas vapors out of the oil.

 

[eXodus]

a. Lithium Tech is unsustainable because there is not enough to power even half of US cars
b. Lithium tech is extremely bad for environment and is extremely toxic (Look up how much water has to be used to extract the Lithium and dont forget what the machinery doing this is using. Hint: Its not electric. (this is also why electric heavy equiment is pipe dream https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/11...too-quickly-during-snow-plowing-says-commish/) Add to that all other environmental pollution that all the "green tech" requires and dependencies on rare earth metals, etc.
c. Upcoming Sodium tech is inferior to energy density and weight ration - ie. not suitable for EV usage.
d. You would need a big breakthrough in energy density vs weight and this has not happened and there is no guarantee that it will by 2030 or 2230.

There are electric cars which need get 1.5 miles per kWh (F150) and there are electric cars which get 6 or 7 miles per kWh
With the first - yes Lithium is not enough to power half of the cars - with the second option you can provide more enough.

Efficiency is EVERYTHING. All grid calculations are tied to amount of kWH you need per mile.

All your arguments are tied to this one metric - MILES/KWH.

If we get to a 10 miles per kWh car - a cheap 30 kWh battery would be enough for 300 miles of range. The grid would be underutilized - since most people drive like 30-40 miles in day- 3 kWh. - which is nothing. Pumping gas costs more power. Not much mining would need to be done.

If we keep making and buying EVs which only get 2 kWh / mile - very different story. All the fears in the article are valid then.

 

[aenyc]

There are electric cars which need get 1.5 miles per kWh (F150) and there are electric cars which get 6 or 7 miles per kWh
With the first - yes Lithium is not enough to power half of the cars - with the second option you can provide more enough.

Efficiency is EVERYTHING. All grid calculations are tied to amount of kWH you need per mile.

All your arguments are tied to this one metric - MILES/KWH.

If we get to a 10 miles per kWh car - a cheap 30 kWh battery would be enough for 300 miles of range. The grid would be underutilized - since most people drive like 30-40 miles in day- 3 kWh. - which is nothing. Pumping gas costs more power. Not much mining would need to be done.

If we keep making and buying EVs which only get 2 kWh / mile - very different story. All the fears in the article are valid then.

How is that relevant? EV's are inherently inefficient because battery energy storage is inherently inefficient.
All other issues still apply, so EV's remain a pipe dream, unless the real goal is getting rid of private transportation (Which it is).

 

[eXodus]

How is that relevant? EV's are inherently inefficient because battery energy storage is inherently inefficient.
All other issues still apply, so EV's remain a pipe dream, unless the real goal is getting rid of private transportation (Which it is).

At this point I have to ask you to go back do some research and learn a little more about batteries.
You apparently have don't know what efficiency means. Without that basic knowledge of this term this discussion is pointless.

 

[aenyc]

The pictures you posted are very simplistic view of the problem, probably aimed at people who are uneducated in any of these things or for people who want to make themselves feel good by using an EV.
It completely ignores every single issue that i posted.

 

[LeoThomson]

Here is a more detailed look at the issues you have raised.

The transition to EV is going to happen regardless if you or I like it or not, because of economics. My guess is that most cars will become self driving cabs, which has the advantage of removing costs for maintenance, insurance and garages.

I call BS on that one.
Why don't you dispute what Mish has summarized with a single counter argument?
To summarize here there are 3 major outstanding obstacles:

1. Battery Technology is not ready for mass EV usage for several reasons
a. Lithium Tech is unsustainable because there is not enough to power even half of US cars
b. Lithium tech is extremely bad for environment and is extremely toxic (Look up how much water has to be used to extract the Lithium and dont forget what the machinery doing this is using. Hint: Its not electric. (this is also why electric heavy equiment is pipe dream https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/11...too-quickly-during-snow-plowing-says-commish/) Add to that all other environmental pollution that all the "green tech" requires and dependencies on rare earth metals, etc.
c. Upcoming Sodium tech is inferior to energy density and weight ration - ie. not suitable for EV usage.
d. You would need a big breakthrough in energy density vs weight and this has not happened and there is no guarantee that it will by 2030 or 2230.

Are There Enough Materials to Manufacture All the Electric Vehicles Needed?

Yes, and recycling is key.

blog.ucsusa.org

2. Electricity Demand - Current Tech can not generate sufficient amount of electricity required for EVs to become dominant
a. Even with current setup (generalized term for existing grid capacity) there is not nearly enough power to supply the demand.
b. Switching to renewables will further reduce this power. Switching to renewables also presents several tangent problems such as storing excess energy that is produced to be used when renewables are not available which brings us back to the battery technology limitations and while stationary batteries can ignore the weight/density issue (to a certain extent), the pollution to the environment during manufacturing and disposal at EOL remains very much an issue, even more so due to much larger stationary battery arrays required.
c. Very basic fact that is often ignored, that even under absolute ideal circumstance, renewables can only generate around 5% of required capacity at CURRENT level. This is why California is such a great example - they mismanaged their infrastructure by requiring renewables, causing brownouts and blackouts because renewables simply dont produce enough. This is exactly what Mish is discussing in one of his points

EVs Add to Electricity Demand, But Not as Much as You Might Think

Grid upgrades will have more to do with building a more robust infrastructure and the addition of solar and wind.

3. Grid capacity - There is not enough capacity for aging grids to carry the required power, and upgrades are extremely costly.

Grids will be upgraded, again you and I have no say in it.

Who is going to pay for it? What about things like road taxes, which are built into fuel price. Once all of this is calculated in, EVs will cost multiples of what an ICE car costs today, and dropping subsidies, will make it even more so (Such as example with Germany where people would not buy EVs without subsidy due to overall cost being higher than ICE and this is just ONE example).

Using the US as an example. US tax on a liter of petrol is about 5 cents per liter, or assuming efficiency of 10 km per liter you are looking at 0.5 cents per km. Assuming 200 Wh/km for the average electric car, you'd need to tax electricity at 0.1 cents per kWh (but only what you put into the vehicle)

This is of course impractical and it would make sense to get this out of general taxes.

What this all comes down to, is cost. After all is said and done, at current technological level, expect to pay a lot more for electricity. A lot more.

Good reason to add solar on our roofs.

The question then becomes, who is going to buy an EV if cost to own one is 3-5x the cost of ICE? I think the answer to that is clear.

You are wrong, Tesla is making huge profits on it's cars and the total cost of ownership is less than a similar ICE car.

And these are just most basic, high level issues.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/pdf/steo_full.pdf

 

[D71]

Here is a more detailed look at the issues you have raised.

The transition to EV is going to happen regardless if you or I like it or not, because of economics. My guess is that most cars will become self driving cabs, which has the advantage of removing costs for maintenance, insurance and garages.

Are There Enough Materials to Manufacture All the Electric Vehicles Needed?

Yes, and recycling is key.

blog.ucsusa.org

EVs Add to Electricity Demand, But Not as Much as You Might Think

Grid upgrades will have more to do with building a more robust infrastructure and the addition of solar and wind.


Grids will be upgraded, again you and I have no say in it.


Using the US as an example. US tax on a liter of petrol is about 5 cents per liter, or assuming efficiency of 10 km per liter you are looking at 0.5 cents per km. Assuming 200 Wh/km for the average electric car, you'd need to tax electricity at 0.1 cents per kWh (but only what you put into the vehicle)

This is of course impractical and it would make sense to get this out of general taxes.


Good reason to add solar on our roofs.


You are wrong, Tesla is making huge profits on it's cars and the total cost of ownership is less than a similar ICE car.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/pdf/steo_full.pdf

I agree with several of the statements .... the goal is to change society into nothing like it is now. You will either conform or be eliminated. With future robotics you won't be needed and bored humans either cause mischief or take up self destructive bad habits like drugs. Ppl need a challenge and a drive to be happy. You as a human have no place in the majority future for the powers that be. The future will suck but you won't even know how it ended or turned out is my guess

 

[LeoThomson]

I agree with several of the statements .... the goal is to change society into nothing like it is now. You will either conform or be eliminated. With future robotics you won't be needed and bored humans either cause mischief or take up self destructive bad habits like drugs. Ppl need a challenge and a drive to be happy. You as a human have no place in the majority future for the powers that be.

AI and robots are going to happen, no country is going want to be left out and even large companies will want to take advantage of the potential gains AI and robots have to offer.

That has nothing to do with transitioning from ICE to EV. (Unless you believe self driving is AI)

 

[D71]

AI and robots are going to happen, no country is going want to be left out and even large companies will want to take advantage of the potential gains AI and robots have to offer.

That has nothing to do with transitioning from ICE to EV. (Unless you believe self driving is AI)

It has everything to do with it unless you maintain tunnel vision. Haha come leo. You know better. There is a big picture to all of this. A lot of ppl won't be in it

 

[eXodus]

The pictures you posted are very simplistic view of the problem, probably aimed at people who are uneducated in any of these things or for people who want to make themselves feel good by using an EV.
It completely ignores every single issue that i posted.

What's the best definition of efficiency?
The term efficiency can be defined as the ability to achieve an end goal with little to no waste, effort, or energy

What is the overarching goal? Move People and Goods from A to B.

Land use efficiency:
Fossil Fuel mining (aka drilling), and transportation (Pipelines) and refining and dispensing (Gas stations) takes up more land mass then building solar fields and wind farms. Pure by Square miles. - Win for Renewables. EV chargers hanging in your garage/work or shopping place don't need additional space.

Energy efficiency:
Refining alone take 15% of US Energy use. Transportation of the liquid and Gas stations are not free either.
Pipeline pumping stations for instance use a ton of power - there roughly 50 booster stations in the US with 12x 3700kW (5000hp) pumps each. - that is 2.4 GW of power required to move fuel - all the time. That is enough energy to power 1.5 Million homes or drive 12 million cars.

50x 12x 3700Kw x 365 days x 24H = 19,447,200,000 kWh

If we would use this energy to drive cars x 6 Miles / kwH = 116,683,200,000 Miles

Divide that by 10.000 miles in a year = 11,668,320 - almost 12 million cars could be driving around just on pumping losses of Fossil Fuel transportation.

Each Gas station needs about 50KW to run = there are 115.000 Gas stations
50kw x 365 days x 24H x 115.000 Gas stations = 50,370,000,000 kWh * 6 Miles / kWH = 302,220,000,000 Miles
/ 10.000 miles driven in a year = 30,222,000 Cars = 30 Million cars.

Most Batteries run in the high 90% round trip efficiencies.
A typical Gas engine gets on it's best days 30% efficiency. A electric Motor is about 98% efficient clear win for EV.

Any efficiency metric you want me debunk for you?

When switching to efficient EVs and while slowly shutting down fossil fuel production and distribution - we offset the energy needed in the grid. 2 Mile / KWH range F150 and 1.5 Mile / KWH range EV Hummers are not going to get us there. We need to be in the 5-10 Mile / KWH range

The websites you quoted are very simplistic and are just ADDING the EVs to the grid without reducing the energy use of the fossil fuel infrastructure - simple math error. While in reality we are replacing gradually. But since replacing math is very hard to calculate, model and understand - very few are able to do it accurate. Most in Energy economics had been wrong 10 years ago. (we predicted 1 million EVs/year sold in 2020 - now 22 there are 10 million sold) There are just too many parts to the puzzle which are constantly changing size and color.

I've wrote those predictions before and been wrong. (way to pessimist with EV adoption) so I'm not trusting anyone (Mish Talk) which states it's not going to work.
Just saying - there are scenarios where EV Trucks work out and there are scenarios where they don't. Humans are awesome and someone may come up with a Mr. fusion flux compensator tomorrow and we can drive indefinite with Banana peels into the future

 

[LeoThomson]

It has everything to do with it unless you maintain tunnel vision. Haha come leo. You know better. There is a big picture to all of this. A lot of ppl won't be in it

Do you think companies should switch from thinking mainly about profits to about what is best for society?