Will SQF-3, 500ft deep, 800ft of wiring, run off this Anker battery pack?

[Hanio]

$209 solar generator

Anker PowerHouse 757 Portable Power Station, 1500W Solar Generator with LFP Battery, 1229Wh Battery Generators for Home Use, LiFePO4 Power Station for Outdoor Camping, and RVs (Solar Panel Optional)​

The pump: I think it is a 6SQF3-M, which is supposed to run on AC or DC, down to 30VDC, or 90VAC, 1400W.

Grundfos Specs 6SQF3

The pump is 500ft down, with the water surface about 200ft below ground level.

Currently wired with about 800 ft of solid copper wire, probably 12 gauge (I can check if it matters a lot) between the pressure switch and 30gal pressure tank, at 240V. No storage tank.

I’m looking for some absolute CHEAPEST ways to get that pump to run, just to get some drinking/bathing water, when the power goes out, which it does, a lot in these parts.

Thoughts I’ve had:

1. Get some cheap Amazon “100W” solar panels, and rig something to swap the pump off the 240AC, to whatever DC the panels put out. I saw a review that said 6 of the 100W panels are enough to run this pump, which I don't quite understand since the pump specs 1400W? This would be about $600 and works when the sun shines brightly.

2. That solar generator/battery contraption, or similar/cheaper, and just rig up a disconnect from the 240, and plug the well into the 120v output of the battery.

3. A gas generator like the Honda 1000W inverter... or 2000W, or maybe an el cheapo Harbor Freight non-inverter for $250 or whatever they cost now. This is my least preferred choice, I can't stand gas generators, but if I could do it for <$500, just for occasional use, maybe this is the way?


I'm feeling like a solar generator with one or two panels to keep it charged is probably the best overall long term solution for the occasional power outage.

Thoughts about any of this?

 

[Hanio]

ok, this chart seems to say that at 400W, and 500ft down, it will pump 1.5ish GPM? That's fine, if true, as long as it doesn't hurt the pump?

 

[Hanio]

So how much power loss do I get with a 800ft run of 12 gauge copper? Seems like a 600W battery, or 6 solar panels (maybe 500 watt total output typical? Not sure), ought to be able to do the job?

looking at the chart again, seems like even 300watts will make the pump run at 500ft, but 200watts wont work at all. Am I reading that right?

 

[v_green57]

Best thing to do would be to add the storage tank you don't have and keep it full. Then use an RV pump to provide minimal flow/pressure to your house.

How long do your outages last? That will be a critical factor in what you do.

 

[Hanio]

Outages are usually 4-6 hours max, with one that lasted about 36 hours.

Storage tank seems like it would be $1-2000? They seem like bacteria breeding grounds too.

Doing a line length power drop calculation, it seems like I'd be down from 120V to 110V at 800ft of 12 gauge. So a 500W battery inverter pack for $200 would give me about 460 watts at the pump, 1.5 GPM.

I think I'm just going to get one and see what happens unless someone tells me it won't work.

 

[TC McClure]

I agree with V_green 57 that pumping to a storage tank is the way to go. Having a full storage tank takes away the worry that the pump will not keep up with the demand. I'm not an engineer but have used 3SQF2 pumps for the past 15 years and it is my understanding that your lift is determined by the static water level (200 ft) and not the depth of the pump (500 ft). If that is the case, your lift is 300 ft, not 500 ft. Mine is set at 100 ft and lifts to a tank 80 feet above the well head. It pumps 1.5 GPM when the sun shines. Those RV pumps work great and I used one for years before I upgraded to a Grundfos booster pump.

Last thought. Those SQF pumps are very expensive and top of the line. My last 3SQF2 cost $2500. I would spend as much as you can afford in support of a fantastic pump.

 

[MichaelK]

1. Get some cheap Amazon “100W” solar panels, and rig something to swap the pump off the 240AC, to whatever DC the panels put out. I saw a review that said 6 of the 100W panels are enough to run this pump, which I don't quite understand since the pump specs 1400W? This would be about $600 and works when the sun shines brightly.

You are really wasting your money buying even "cheap" 100W panels. You will get FAR more bang for your buck going with high-voltage residential grid-tie style panels. Shop locally on Craigslist with local cash and carry pricing. Most likely you will find 250W panels for about the same price as 100W panels off Amazon.

You are in the SW US? Can you be a bit more specific? Go on your local Craigslist site and see what's for sale. Expect to get 3-4W/$ for regular 250-300W grid-ties. Maybe 2W/$ for the newest latest-generation panels. But definately much more than what you can get off Amazon.

Here's a voltage drop calculator to determine loss. There's going to be a BIG loss with 12AWG wire. Just can't get around that. Might be better using AC. https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

 

[Hanio]

I agree with V_green 57 that pumping to a storage tank is the way to go. Having a full storage tank takes away the worry that the pump will not keep up with the demand. I'm not an engineer but have used 3SQF2 pumps for the past 15 years and it is my understanding that your lift is determined by the static water level (200 ft) and not the depth of the pump (500 ft). If that is the case, your lift is 300 ft, not 500 ft. Mine is set at 100 ft and lifts to a tank 80 feet above the well head. It pumps 1.5 GPM when the sun shines. Those RV pumps work great and I used one for years before I upgraded to a Grundfos booster pump.

Last thought. Those SQF pumps are very expensive and top of the line. My last 3SQF2 cost $2500. I would spend as much as you can afford in support of a fantastic pump.

Ok lifting 200 feet (the static water level) makes a lot more sense thank you for reminding me of long ago physics. That's very helpful and gives more margin. Yeah I spent the $ for the Grundfos in anticipation of doing some kind of solar backup solution eventually, especially because it can run on just about any sort of electricity. The pump is about three years old now.

I really, really, really don't want a storage tank. I just think they are yuck.

My demand is extremely low. All I'm looking for is a source of drinking and cooking water when the power is out. Possibly shower water too, my shower heads are 1.25GPM, so about the same as kitchen sink output at 30-45 psi.

So anything that gets the pump to put out 1.5 GPM, at enough pressure to fill the 30 gallon pressure tank, is fine. Total use max maybe 100 gallons/day.

 

[Hanio]

You are really wasting your money buying even "cheap" 100W panels. You will get FAR more bang for your buck going with high-voltage residential grid-tie style panels. Shop locally on Craigslist with local cash and carry pricing. Most likely you will find 250W panels for about the same price as 100W panels off Amazon.

You are in the SW US? Can you be a bit more specific? Go on your local Craigslist site and see what's for sale. Expect to get 3-4W/$ for regular 250-300W grid-ties. Maybe 2W/$ for the newest latest-generation panels. But definately much more than what you can get off Amazon.

Here's a voltage drop calculator to determine loss. There's going to be a BIG loss with 12AWG wire. Just can't get around that. Might be better using AC. https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

View attachment 152807

Hmm. That's a big drop, so I'll stick to AC. I didn't get a chance to check my wire gauge today, I'll definitely look at it in the morning. Hopefully its thicker than 12, but I'm pretty sure it's just 12. Oh well.

I totally get spending the $ to put together a great setup. If my requirements change, I would definitely do that.

But all I'm trying to do is pump 100 gallons a day, in a power outage.

Any reason that battery "generator" in the first link, in my first post, wouldn't work? When I plugged in the numbers, I got 120VAC dropping to 110VAC, and 600 watts dropping to 550ish.

So my main question is, is there really enough power, in that cheap battery, to get the pump to pump water into the 30 gallon pressure tank? If there is, then I can stick a single solar panel on it, and there's my backup solution for $300.

Should I try to ask Grundfos again? I asked them this question months ago in email but they never responded. I can't definitely figure out the minimum power source/power level (in watts) needed to get that particular pump, at that depth and water level, to pressurize the tank.

I'm right on the NM/AZ border. Middle of nowhere. Plenty of sun, nothing on craigslist ?

ETA: so I guess my main question is: "How many watts does that pump need, minimum, to pressurize the tank to 45psi, when it's down there at 500 feet, water level 200-300 feet below ground?"

Is there enough info provided by Grundfos in their specs to figure that out?

 

[Hanio]

OK I finally figured out it is 790ft of 10/2 copper wire. That gives me a 7% drop, 112 volts, 560 watts max available to the pump from the $210 battery. I think it should work dammit ?


...also I see now that solar battery is more like 600W surge/startup, 300W continuous.

 

[TC McClure]

I reread your original post. Why do you lose water when the power goes out? I am assuming that your water is piped to your property by a water district. I've never heard of a water loss when the power is out. Just curious.

 

[Hanio]

I reread your original post. Why do you lose water when the power goes out? I am assuming that your water is piped to your property by a water district. I've never heard of a water loss when the power is out. Just curious.

When the power goes out, the pump in the well stops pumping. A 500 foot deep well. There is no piped water. There is no water district. There is desert, rattlesnakes, deadly scorpions and black widow spiders. Also foot long centipedes that cause the most painful bite known to man or beast.

 

[MichaelK]

I'm right on the NM/AZ border. Middle of nowhere. Plenty of sun, nothing on craigslist ?

ETA: so I guess my main question is: "How many watts does that pump need, minimum, to pressurize the tank to 45psi, when it's down there at 500 feet, water level 200-300 feet below ground?"

Is there enough info provided by Grundfos in their specs to figure that out?

Did a quick search on the Tucson Craigslist, and found this immediately.

TRINA 250 SOLAR PANEL, 65" X39" about 34 volts and 7 amps, -...

I have extra panels from a solar project. I have been using Trina Panels for years. These are. Great for Rv, Cabin, Off Grid . 4 to 1, 3 to1, 2 t01 Solar connectors available. Solar AGM, No...

tucson.craigslist.org

Is it a closer drive to Tucson or Flagstaff for you? Honestly, you are in the Mecca of solar, and it you can't find solar there, you are not looking properly.

The best way to determine what your pump really needs is to clamp it. What you need is a clamp meter that can read inrush current. That's the power spike that occurs in the first 500 milliseconds of motor startup. A regular AC clamp meter though is not fast enough to read inrush. You MUST have a meter designed for inrush measurements. The one I am using right now is the Uni-T 216C.

UNI-T UT216C 600A Digital Clamp Meters NCV LCD Test ACDC Auto Range Multimets✦Kd | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for UNI-T UT216C 600A Digital Clamp Meters NCV LCD Test ACDC Auto Range Multimets✦Kd at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

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Basically, you put the clamp around one of the AC wiring leading to the pump, select "inrush" from the amp menu, and then turn on the pump. It will read the number of amps needed to start the pump. Once started, the amp draw will drop down to the running amps, which I think will be ~1/4th the starting amps.

If you really can't get a meter, read the specs on what the running amp draw is, and multiply that by 4.

I'm basically assuming that no, that little power backup unit will NOT start your pump.

 

[v_green57]

Grundfos SQF pumps don't "hard start" like AC pumps or some DC pumps do.

They have MPPT electronics in the pump motor itself. This is what allows them to run off 30-300V AC or DC. The motor is actually a high-efficiency permanent magnet type. When you supply a SQF with AC, I suspect it is converted to DC to run the electronics and motor.

Upon startup, they do a MPPT sweep of the available power to see how to optimize it THEN the motor starts.

I built my own control box for my SQF with analog voltage and current meters. When power is applied, the pump sweeps three times to figure out the MPPT point (you can see this with analog meters - harder to see with DVM). Then the current slowly rises over about 5 - 8 sec. to the MPPT point as calculated by the three sweeps. From that point on, it recalculates the MPPT point continuously as a MPPT CC does.

So it might be possible to start a SQF off of a relatively small supply IF it meets the minimum 30VDC and there's a reasonable (not too small) amt. of current available. Haven't tried it myself.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I reread your original post. Why do you lose water when the power goes out? I am assuming that your water is piped to your property by a water district. I've never heard of a water loss when the power is out. Just curious.

Never lived in the country with a well I guess.

 

[v_green57]

"There is desert, rattlesnakes, deadly scorpions and black widow spiders. Also foot long centipedes that cause the most painful bite known to man or beast."

Rattlesnakes.



Meh. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. This one is a Midget Faded staying out of the August sun under the propane tank. Because it was pretty close to my front porch I fished it into a bucket with the extendable pool brush pole/soft brush I keep around for cleaning snow off the array during the winter. Relocated it elsewhere.

I find the damn pack rats to be a far bigger pestilence. If I leave even ONE INCH of wire unprotected by conduit or foil tape, the miserable SOB's will find it and chew it. LAN cabling suffers the most.



The one in the soup can was killed by the dogs. I had to put it in the can temporarily and set it on the cable reel table until I had a chance to bury it.

 

[Tomthumb62]

pack rats

Those things stink almost as bad as skunks. Cuter though.

 

[v_green57]

Those things stink almost as bad as skunks. Cuter though.

Yup. Ya gotta wonder about the pure evilness of something that craps out little turds then glues them down by peeing on them.

Real PITA to clean up after when they get inside an equipment enclosure...

 

[Tomthumb62]

Real PITA to clean up after when they get inside an equipment enclosure...

18awg on your 5k inverter will help clean that up ?