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Xuba Electronics: DEAL - 280AH LiFePo4 cells. Purchase & Review

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When I'd simply set the SCC to 27V, the bulk charge would end too soon (about 1/3 charged), leaving the absorb phase to charge the remaining 2/3 capacity. I estimated It'd take several days to finish charging before finally settling at 27V. Plus, it would waste a lot of good Sun hours (power potential) at reduced charging. Guess it's one of the problems with using a SCC that wasn't designed for charging LFP batteries. I don't know, even with my Samlex inverter/ charger using the Lithium CC/ CV charging option would take a long time to get that last 5% - 10% capacity to get to 27V.
It is easier for me to think in terms of cell voltages so I will convert your voltages to cell voltages to try to explain how I understand it. When you set your CC to 27 (3.375 per cell) that is the point where you are telling the charger to transition from CC (Bulk)mode to CV (Absorb). At that point the Amps will begin to taper until the cell can take no more current at that voltage. That is why it takes so long. I have used 3.4 volts as the end of CC and either control the cutoff Amps or the time in CC. The cells eventually settle in at 3.32. When I measured the Watthours gained by going to 3.5 volts it was not significant. But I suspect from what you are saying is there might be a lot of room between 3.75 and 3.4. Or it could be the CV stage is too long.
Some things I've recently learned are differences in voltage under various loads vs no-load and settling voltages, both when charging and discharging. Typically need to charge higher with the expectation the voltage will drop some (assuming you're able to let the battery settle/ rest). When discharging, you can go lower than the lower limit you set, knowing the voltage will bounce back some as well (again, if you're able to let the battery rest). So there is some offset estimation. Especially, when setting the inverter low-voltage alarm and cut-off.
Settling at the end of charge is normal as explained above. My experience is that the cells settled at 3.32 whether they were charged to 3.4 or 3.65 volts. Voltage sag is what happens under load and is a function of the size of the load to the battery capacity and sometimes age. One does need to take it into consideration when setting the Low Voltage Disconnect. Some devices let you set a bandwidth so there is no cycling.
To be clear my numbers come from using Winstons and Thunderskys and there may be a few millivolts difference between these cells from Xuba and my past experience.
 
I'm still trying to figure out the particular top and bottom settings. The 27V - 25V range worked out really well in this last test. Seems like a nice Goldilocks range. But, it required regular attention as I had to set the solar charge controller (SCC) above 28V to maximize the amps (current) to charge the battery in a reasonable amount of time. So I was frequently checking and adjusting the SCC settings to finally get to a resting 27V.

When I'd simply set the SCC to 27V, the bulk charge would end too soon (about 1/3 charged), leaving the absorb phase to charge the remaining 2/3 capacity. I estimated It'd take several days to finish charging before finally settling at 27V. Plus, it would waste a lot of good Sun hours (power potential) at reduced charging. Guess it's one of the problems with using a SCC that wasn't designed for charging LFP batteries. I don't know, even with my Samlex inverter/ charger using the Lithium CC/ CV charging option would take a long time to get that last 5% - 10% capacity to get to 27V.

I'm considering what Will said in this post: DIY LiFePo4 Solar Battery
Of course, he also has the sticky post: Recommended Charge Profile for DIY LiFePO4 Batteries *Sticky Post*

Now that I have a good sense-of-confidence the batteries are working as expected. I'll do a little more researching/ experimenting/ fine-tuning and settle on some reasonably care-free settings.

Some things I've recently learned are differences in voltage under various loads vs no-load and settling voltages, both when charging and discharging. Typically need to charge higher with the expectation the voltage will drop some (assuming you're able to let the battery settle/ rest). When discharging, you can go lower than the lower limit you set, knowing the voltage will bounce back some as well (again, if you're able to let the battery rest). So there is some offset estimation. Especially, when setting the inverter low-voltage alarm and cut-off.

I expect the experience will differ when I start continuously using the battery (always under some kind of load). Likely having to estimate some compensation or fine-tuning based on my average usage.

Having some sort of capacity monitor has been very helpful. The Drok meter I've been using shows the total accumulated Ah and Wh used. It also goes in reverse when charging. So, I can see how quickly it's charging back up and when it should be about finished, going back to a zero reading.

For me, with regular daily usage, I think it'll be rare that I'll come close to using 85% potential capacity a day (~12kWh). Probably be around half that. Some days I'll hardly use it at all, other days, I may get a couple days of crumby weather (using solar charging) where the battery will be fully utilized. Heck, it took me about 1.5 days to do my last capacity test and it was powering about 95% of my 120V power usage, even when I'm working from home. Plus, it'll be a nice-to-have if/ when I go 5+ days without grid power again during hurricane seasons.
I will soon be in a similar testing-but-don't-NEED-it phase soon and I'm sure your test results will be extremely helpful. I remember Will posting that...have you tried those figures?
Ultimately my systems will be crucial, though, and I need them to perform as expected. They will be powering completely off-grid eco-friendly vacation rentals. But the electric power usage will be a lot like yours minus the coffee. I'll need to be mindful to make it my aim to make my tests as real life as possible.
You mentioned that you took off your BMS. I have All-in-one MPPT units that allow me to set bulk and float...low voltage cut-off and such. No one seems to have a clear EASY affordable BMS selection for me (I'd need 4), so I was thinking I would try using these the old fashioned way... parallel balance and rely on my settings. Am I crazy, in your experience, trying that with these cells? It looks like your monitoring with a BattGo. Have you been happy with that?
 
No one seems to have a clear EASY affordable BMS selection for me (I'd need 4), so I was thinking I would try using these the old fashioned way... parallel balance and rely on my settings. Am I crazy, in your experience, trying that with these cells? It looks like your monitoring with a BattGo. Have you been happy with that?
If it makes you feel any better, my BMS cost $600. But my batteries cost a lot more so I would not be without one. I do not usually need the balancing function but the safety of the pack is what the value is too me. Is there a particular reason you need 4 BMSs? Are you splitting your cells into 4 parallel packs instead of paralleling first then series connecting the buddy groups?
 
It is easier for me to think in terms of cell voltages so I will convert your voltages to cell voltages to try to explain how I understand it. When you set your CC to 27 (3.375 per cell) that is the point where you are telling the charger to transition from CC (Bulk)mode to CV (Absorb). At that point the Amps will begin to taper until the cell can take no more current at that voltage. That is why it takes so long. I have used 3.4 volts as the end of CC and either control the cutoff Amps or the time in CC. The cells eventually settle in at 3.32. When I measured the Watthours gained by going to 3.5 volts it was not significant. But I suspect from what you are saying is there might be a lot of room between 3.75 and 3.4. Or it could be the CV stage is too long.
One thing to watch for is at what cell voltage your BMS starts balancing the cells. Unless I go in a change it, mine starts balancing at 3.4V cell level. So charging to 3.5V works with the BMS to keep the cells balanced. That is 14V, but if I let the battery set for a day or so, it will probably settle down to 13.5-13.6V.... Once I get my solar hooked up, it is set for Bulk 14.1V then the float is 13.6V and the amps taper off till it hits it's preset for them and it stops charging.
 
If it makes you feel any better, my BMS cost $600. But my batteries cost a lot more so I would not be without one. I do not usually need the balancing function but the safety of the pack is what the value is too me. Is there a particular reason you need 4 BMSs? Are you splitting your cells into 4 parallel packs instead of paralleling first then series connecting the buddy groups?
They will be powering 4 separate systems. Each tiny house will have it's own All-in-one MPPT - 1500w (or more) 24v panels - 24v 280aH
Most of the BMS' the guys recommend seem to be super expensive or super difficult or don't show me the individual cell readings or don't have an 8s version. Can't seem to find a recommendation that has everything I would want in a simple BMS.
 
They will be powering 4 separate systems. Each tiny house will have it's own All-in-one MPPT - 1500w (or more) 24v panels - 24v 280aH
Most of the BMS' the guys recommend seem to be super expensive or super difficult or don't show me the individual cell readings or don't have an 8s version. Can't seem to find a recommendation that has everything I would want in a simple BMS.
I am in the same boat as you. I looked into the Electro Dacus SBMS0, but it doesn't work with my inverter (Giandel), but may work with an all-in-one unit, but I haven't looked into it further since I have separate components. Might be an option for you...

Also the new Daly Smart BMS has an 8s option and I am looking into those right now. Might be an option for you as well - being discussed here: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/new-daly-smart-bms-w-communication-80-250a.7002/

Also - thank you Delta-V for these test. I love reading your updates on them.
 
One thing to watch for is at what cell voltage your BMS starts balancing the cells. Unless I go in a change it, mine starts balancing at 3.4V cell level. So charging to 3.5V works with the BMS to keep the cells balanced. That is 14V, but if I let the battery set for a day or so, it will probably settle down to 13.5-13.6V.... Once I get my solar hooked up, it is set for Bulk 14.1V then the float is 13.6V and the amps taper off till it hits it's preset for them and it stops charging.
That is good advice. I can also set the voltage at which it will start balancing. I don't use the balancing function much because I don't see much drift from when I balanced the pack initially.
 
What metal are the terminals made of?
I'm about to order some and I'm worried about galvanic corrosion.
Thanks!
 
What metal are the terminals made of?
I'm about to order some and I'm worried about galvanic corrosion/
Don't worry, use NoAlox or similar antioxident. The terminals on these are Aluminum and I am considering Aluminum buss bars which are easier to work than copper. Somewhere earlier in the thread someone suggested making them bigger to dissapate the heat. That also works to compensate for the slight difference in conductivity between Copper buss bars and Aluminum.
 
NoAlox sounds like it will work. Thanks!
I'm also considering which busbar to get.

ebay sells (free shipping) : https://www.ebay.com/itm/Copper-110...298751?hash=item46abe00fbf:g:~iwAAOSwnWFeh7CW

The batteries are 71.5mm so one $12.31 bar will make 4 post-post connectors, each good for 385A DC.
I now see why folks are purchasing copper tube and driving over it heh heh. I can see why you'd consider aluminum. Have you found a good source? And have you found a good busbar DC ampacity table for aluminum?

Note: this is a really great DC ampacity table for copper busbars: (thank you @Ron)
 
Don't worry, use NoAlox or similar antioxident. The terminals on these are Aluminum and I am considering Aluminum buss bars which are easier to work than copper. Somewhere earlier in the thread someone suggested making them bigger to dissapate the heat. That also works to compensate for the slight difference in conductivity between Copper buss bars and Aluminum.
The reason PG&E uses a lot of aluminum wire is it is cheaper and less likely to be stolen. They can just push more power thru it to make up for the losses. Cost of copper buss bars is minor and you/we can't make up for losses the same way. I want every bit of power I can squeeze from my battery. While keeping it within the parameters for long life and maximum duty cycles, but still providing the power I need it for.
 
For those not familiar with McMasters-Carr:


Multipurpose 110 Copper Bars with Rounded Edges
2557t651p1-j01-digital@halfx_636981891747265503.png


  • Yield Strength: 37,000 psi
  • Hardness: Rockwell F75 (Soft)
  • Temper: H02 (1/2 Hard)
  • Heat Treatable: No
  • Specifications Met: ASTM B187
Offering high electrical conductivity and formability, 110 copper is 99.9% pure. Also known as ETP copper, it's often used in electrical applications, such as for bus bars and wire connectors, as well as for flashing, gaskets, and rivets.
3/8" Thick. (-0.004" to 0.004" Tolerance)
1/4" Thick. (-0.004" to 0.004" Tolerance)
3/16" Thick. (-0.004" to 0.004" Tolerance)
1/8" Thick. (-0.004" to 0.004" Tolerance)
Wd.Straightness
Tolerance
1 ft.
Lg.
3 ft.
Lg.
6 ft.
Lg.
3/4"0.125"2557T51$8.43$21.07$35.11
1"0.125"2557T5210.5226.3043.84
1 1/2"0.125"2557T5315.3638.4064.00
2"0.125"2557T5420.6351.5785.95
3"0.125"2557T5528.7771.93119.88
4"0.125"2557T5637.4693.64156.07
3/4"0.125"2557T5711.9929.9849.97
1"0.125"2557T5815.0437.6062.66
1 1/2"0.125"2557T5920.6451.6086.00
2"0.125"2557T6126.4966.22110.36
3/4"0.125"2557T6213.7434.3657.27
1"0.125"2557T6316.7441.8569.75
1 1/2"0.125"2557T6424.8262.05103.42
2"0.125"2557T6532.6681.65136.09
3"0.125"2557T6646.48116.21193.68
4"0.125"2557T6760.56151.41252.35
1"0.125"2557T6823.7359.3398.89
1 1/2"0.125"2557T6935.7989.48149.13
2"0.125"2557T7147.36118.39197.32
3"0.125"2557T7271.30178.24297.07
 
I purchased 12' (48" x 3) of 1"x.125 rounded bar for $55 shipped from onlinemetals. Going to double up on my bus bars for 1/4" thickness.
 
Cost of copper buss bars is minor and you/we can't make up for losses the same way. I want every bit of power I can squeeze from my battery. While keeping it within the parameters for long life and maximum duty cycles, but still providing the power I need it for.
I was planning on using twice the cross sectional area of Aluminum than I calculated in copper for the 400 Amps which is way past the capacity of my inverter. The extra cross section should more than compensate for the 40% difference in conductivity. This will be the first time I will try it and I can knock them out myself because I can cut and drill the bars in my garage. I previously used a machine shop for the copper bars but that option is no longer available.
 
.......have you found a good busbar DC ampacity table for aluminum?
I backed into it by doubling a copper table. I am tentatively going to use 1/4 x 1 1/2 Aluminum but am going to check a couple other tables to be sure. I am 30 to 45 days before my cells will arrive.
 
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I was planning on using twice the cross sectional area of Aluminum than I calculated in copper for the 400 Amps which is way past the capacity of my inverter. The extra cross section should more than compensate for the 40% difference in conductivity. This will be the first time I will try it and I can knock them out myself because I can cut and drill the bars in my garage. I previously used a machine shop for the copper bars but that option is no longer available.
Why would one need a machine shop to cut and drill Copper? Do you really think it is that much harder to work with compared to aluminum? We're not talking about harden or armor plate steel here. I could cut it with a hacksaw and drill it with a 12V hand drill if I had to. It's not like you're drilling large holes through a 1/2" thick heat treated steel frame. BTDT, too. Help me understand, because I don't see it as that big a deal to do.
 
I was planning on using twice the cross sectional area of Aluminum than I calculated in copper for the 400 Amps which is way past the capacity of my inverter. The extra cross section should more than compensate for the 40% difference in conductivity. This will be the first time I will try it and I can knock them out myself because I can cut and drill the bars in my garage. I previously used a machine shop for the copper bars but that option is no longer available.
I use 1/4 inch aluminum have no problems whatsoever
 
I use 1/4 inch aluminum have no problems whatsoever
Thanks that is comforting. The other thing that drew me to aluminum besides the workability is the heat conductivity. I saw an infrared image here and most of the heat looked like it was centered around those terminals. It could dissipate through the more mass of the buss bars. My garage in my current home runs a lot hotter than the semi subterraneum garage where I had installed a Radian. I also plan on working this inverter harder than I did the Radian.
 
Why would one need a machine shop to cut and drill Copper? Do you really think it is that much harder to work with compared to aluminum?
At the time I did not have a drill press and that place was cheap. I did cut the copper with a Sawzall after the chop saw had difficulty. I have used the same chop saw blade and my table saw with aluminum. At any rate that is history. I am committed to try Aluminum this time.
 
The reason PG&E uses a lot of aluminum wire is it is cheaper and less likely to be stolen. They can just push more power thru it to make up for the losses. Cost of copper buss bars is minor and you/we can't make up for losses the same way. I want every bit of power I can squeeze from my battery. While keeping it within the parameters for long life and maximum duty cycles, but still providing the power I need it for.

It's actually more about the weight than cost of the metal, for transmission lines. But your point still stands, IMO.
 
It's actually more about the weight than cost of the metal, for transmission lines. But your point still stands, IMO.
Copper theft is a real big problem out here. I know there were some remote stretches the phone company ended up put up fiber optic, not because they needed the capacity. They did it because people kept stealing the copper wire. It got so bad, that people were stealing it faster than they could replace it.

People will try and steal wire from live circuits, too. People be crazy the stuff they do. Other than CRV cans and bottles, past a certain amount they have to hold the check for 3 days. I think it's $60. The times I ran up against that, I told them to mail me my check.
 
Is there a way to determine shipping without entering credit card info? (mcmaster.com)
It's 3:22AM and it could be that my brain isn't functioning. I just can't figure it out...
 
Is there a way to determine shipping without entering credit card info? (mcmaster.com)
It's 3:22AM and it could be that my brain isn't functioning. I just can't figure it out...
IDK about there, but someone on one of these threads posted a link to copper bars on eBay.
You might want to compare prices there and shipping and time to get them.

If you go to their home page, one of the things is shipping. On the left towards the bottom.
That is for shipping supplies.
Also there was a pop up that their customer service agents are available 24/7 by phone.
They have 5 different locations under contact us. I'd pick the closest to you to call.


https://www.mcmaster.com/covid-19-response/
 
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