Home Insurance & Non UL Approved Equipment

[Hymie]

Noticing how much of the DIY solar equipment being sold doesn’t have any UL or cUL listing, or approvals of any sort for that matter, I’m wondering how using these items could affect an owner’s home insurance if a claim was to arise?

 

[Wellbuilt]

Makes your Insurance nonexistent .
In my area I can’t get a permit with equipment with out ul Listing .
No permit no insurance

 

[tigerwillow1]

Could somebody help me find where DIY work and/or non-listed equipment would invalidate my home insurance? The policy is full of exclusions like water damage, nuclear damage, etc. but I can't find anything about construction without permits, unlisted devices, and so forth. Absolutely nothing about building permits, inspections, or UL approval in there. Not that I can find, anyway, in the 72 page policy.

 

[Texas-Mark]

When I had hail damage the insurance covered two of my panels that were damaged. They never even asked about permits or anything.

 

[Wellbuilt]

? that is a no brainer , no permits , no inspection , no coverage you are none compliant
they don’t want to pay out if they don’t have to , a Illegal installation that burns down your house will void your Insurance . ?
they don’t have to put that in writing for you do they ?

 

[Texas-Mark]

they don’t have to put that in writing for you do they

"If it's not excluded, it's covered". If that is not what your insurance company says, you need a new insurer.

 

[tigerwillow1]

My policy says:

We insure accidental direct physical loss or damage to that
property described in Section I - Types of Property Insured .

Followed by:
This policy does not insure loss or damage to
covered property directly or indirectly caused by, arising out of
or resulting from the excluded causes of loss or damage set forth
in Section I - Uninsured Loss or Damage and Excluded Causes of
Loss or Damage, whether the excluded cause of loss or damage
occurs on or away from the residence premises .

There is nothing in the exclusions about permits, inspections, compliance or approvals. Maybe some policies have that. I know for instance that my policy covers liability for backyard chickens while some other companies consider them exotic or dangerous animals.

 

[chrisski]

Noticing how much of the DIY solar equipment being sold doesn’t have any UL or cUL listing, or approvals of any sort for that matter, I’m wondering how using these items could affect an owner’s home insurance if a claim was to arise?

Don’t have a list, but a site like Victron has certifcates:

Inverter VE.Direct - Victron Energy

Inverters allow you to power domestic equipment - requiring 230V/120V AC - using 'leisure' or 'automotive' batteries rated at 12V, 24V or 48V DC.

www.victronenergy.com

If you’re looking for UL certification, that series of inverters I linked has 15 or so inverters, only a couple of which are UL certified, and the certificate is downloadable. With those two, it is a UL458 certification, which I think is different from your house. UL458 is for an RV.

THe only way I know to be sure is to go to sites and download the actual ceritificate. It’d be difficult to be sure the specific model is UL listed from a site like this. Kind of like the inverters I linked some Victron Phoenix Invertera are UL listed, but only two are UL458, which may or may not be what you want.

Once wanted to download the UL certification, or just the UL458 certification, but it is pretty expensive. Pay to read.

 

[Wellbuilt]

"If it's not excluded, it's covered". If that is not what your insurance company says, you need a new insurer.

I work with a lot of Insurance companies for home cleanings and if your Unpermitted Illegal solar insulation burns down your home you will not be getting a check
it’s the same thing with wood stoves , owner installs a wood stove on the slide and the house burns down and your stove was the cause you are screwed .
same thing with solar power sorry ?

 

[Texas-Mark]

Too many people just roll over when the insurance tries to screw them by not paying.

 

[K8MEJ]

When I was contemplating installing my own HVAC system in my house, I called my insurance agent, who then called his underwriter, and asked about covering my house and belongings in the event my installation burned my house down. I was just being extra cautious to make sure saving a few thousand dollars wouldn't lead to me losing everything. I was told that if it was determined that my new HVAC was the source of the fire, my insurance company would replace everything except for the HVAC system. Now, I have good insurance and a replacement policy to boot.

That said, in my house, I'd only use UL listed equipment on the inverter side. Even Victron doesn't UL list the solar side (DC side).

I would ask your insurance agent rather than relying on the opinions here.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

One of the simplest ways of insuring your insurance covers something is to ask.

In writing. Answers in writing.

I am not a lawyer

Most people get afraid to ask, but some things that may define slightly differently from state is ‘consequential damages’ and ‘incidental losses’
If your install causes- your fault or not- incidental or consequential damage that you seek payout coverage for - the policy doesn’t need to explicitly exclude that circumstance.

Three things govern law: your state “code” or “statutes annotated” as enacted by the legislature (usually most visible regarding criminal conduct but laws go way past criminal behavior and are why “rights may vary from state to state” as these laws either protect the citizenship or a company); the “precedent” as recorded from results of prior civil cases; and state or local administration of ‘zoning’ or ‘building codes’ or ‘licensing and inspection.’

Every policy must be examined - 72 pages!! - to learn the exclusions and limitations therein. If a local code or zoning enforcement office has “jurisdiction” or a locality has enacted an ordinance that affirms that “by law” the utility has to approve an installation you may have in that ordinance an exclusion (excuse not to pay) for the insurance company.

So get answers in writing, just like for an older vehicle with value or modifications that put it well above book value you can obtain “stated value” or other increased coverage (like my 1989 jeep that the insurance co has claimed was worth $2600 but with condition and modifications, accessories is appraised at 7500… I had to obtain in-writing coverage for uninsured, theft, and comprehensive coverage that made sense).
So if you describe your situation and get affirmation of coverage for that situation (and maybe every year redo that) then you are all set. A verbal ain’t gonna do it.

 

[Wellbuilt]

Seams like a easy one, but I guess you could ask if you as a Unexperienced homeowner could install a
inferior solar system without the safety certificate and state and town inspections or permits.
Would they pay out a clam in your favor if the system causes a ??

 

[12VoltInstalls]

as a Unexperienced homeowner could install a
inferior solar system without the safety certificate and state and town inspections or permits.

Well LOL that isn’t how I was envisioning!
Guess I was making the assumption that everyone would approach it like a professional, knowledgeable person with data and basic descriptions - which is how I would do it.

Thing is, like here in rural Vermont for non-commercial: no code office, no inspectors, no self-install barriers. But yes, civil law reaches everywhere. So you only need to sell it to the insurance company, and if I have to call a licensed master electrician to prove an install is safe and pay him $100 I’ll do it.
You have insurance to pay for losses you can’t afford to pay for out of pocket. I don’t currently carry coverage (so over 4 years $2200-ish richer) but once I build the traditional home structure I’ll most def have insurance.

 

[Wellbuilt]

well I Guess if you have no permit ,no inspection, no licensing and no insurance it’s all on you .
If I was putting solar in a RV or a shed /cabin conversion I would not be to concerned If it burns it burns not much to lose really .
I have a Customer that put a woodstove in his basement after burning for 2 months the house caught fire because of
improper installation the insurance would not pay out .
not permit no inspection no pay out .
Things are changing fast there was a time The insurance company wanted to give you a settlement.
Now they are looking to not pay out it’s 2021

 

[tigerwillow1]

This debate would seem to open up and endless line of questions. What if you build a computer from parts, that surely doesn't have a UL listing. How about a cheap aftermarket laptop battery? Both of these could burn a house down. How about a lithium ion portable power station Bring it home and it burns your house down. No UL listing.


Here's a thread about the subject with some replies from firefighters and insurance people.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeImprovement/comments/7vwe23

The general consensus is that the insurance will pay out and may very well drop you as a customer. Naturally there are other posts to be found that say the opposite. I realize that common sense might not have anything to do with it, but if somebody is covered for building a campfire in their living room next to the drapes and dry Christmas tree, it doesn't make sense that an unpermitted job and/or lack of UL listing should get harsher treatment.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Customer that put a woodstove in his basement after burning for 2 months the house caught fire because ofimproper installation the insurance would not pay out .

That is exactly what I’m talking about. After a century or two of experience, I can do a lot of things and have resources I can call to sign off on stuff- not to get away with things, no, to verify for the convening authority that it was done right. At one project I did ~$8K of compliance electrical work and paid a well-known licensed electrician for a menial $600 portion; the code enforcement guy said we shouldn’t talk about how I got it done (he knew when I started) but said ‘good job’ after inspection and I had it signed off that day.

You have to do stuff right and know who you’re dealing with. Insurance is a different situation but the same principle applies.

Things are changing fast there was a time The insurance company wanted to give you a settlement.
Now they are looking to not pay out it’s 2021

Absolutely. Insurance is a racket. In my more youthful days some photos and a description on paper would get me appropriate-value car insurance for modified or restored vehicles and usually for no change in premium cost. I requested increased limits a few years ago for my extremely good condition 1989 jeep after a bunch of work: frame-off and paint. All I wanted was theft and comprehensive to $8600 (high book) instead of their measly 1/3 of that. What happened? They gave me written notice of cancellation and dropped me and I wasn’t even making a claim, just inquiring for real-value coverage!

general consensus is that the insurance will pay out and may very well drop you as a customer. Naturally there are other posts to be found that say the opposite. I realize that common sense might not have anything to do with

The reality is probably that. For example, in many areas a homeowner is allowed to do his own electrical and plumbing work in a single family owner occupied dwelling or solely-owned business by local ordinance.

A lawyer licensed in the jurisdictional region would have to speak to the weight of exclusions or void-clauses for your insurance.

I just don’t trust a lot of things anymore

 

[Wellbuilt]

I guess it depends , If you’re feeling ? lucky or not ?
On the flip side you can get all boozed up drive into a wall kill a few people
And the Insurance companies on the hook for a lot of it .
I’m a builder , and do a lot of Insurance work and deal with this all the time . If Home spun electrical work lights on fire the fire marshal determines your electrical work caused the fire.
Your Insurance company investigators look at the report and Determine if there’s actual evidence metal stand up in court to deny your claim.
If it looks like a looser they will pay out .
In my area a home a owner can do there own work but the permit the work and we hire a Engineering firmTo certify the work.

 

[ereams65]

End of the day, if a job requires a permit, go pull one. They're not hard to get. If you want the Insurance company to cover whatever it is you're pulling the permit for, ask them, and make sure their answer is in writing. Easy peasy.

 

[Wellbuilt]

End of the day, if a job requires a permit, go pull one. They're not hard to get. If you want the Insurance company to cover whatever it is you're pulling the permit for, ask them, and make sure their answer is in writing. Easy peasy.

It’s just not that easy .
A lot of what we talk about here just dosent pass code
It is what it is .