Home Insurance & Non UL Approved Equipment

[Oldphile]

I called my insurance company to inform them that I now have solar PV on my roof. They had 3 questions;
Was the system professionally installed?
How many KW is it to which I asked AC or DC? She was totally baffled.
How much did the system cost?

Then there was a discussion about what the master policy covered. It's a condo. I further explained that the system had a central inverter in the garage. Again, she had no idea what I was talking about, but said she would make a note. It was a very pleasant conversation.

 

[millsan1]

BTW This is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Fire Marshall's guidance to AHJs regarding home batteries. https://www.mass.gov/doc/supersedin...ns-in-one-and-two-family-dwellings-0/download

I

Reason #964 why MA sucks

 

[Hymie]

Here’s a couple related links as to the issue of Energy Storage Systems (ESS) in eastern Canada. I’m in Ontario and have run into a similar situation as the articles outline. Of note is the reference that an update may be coming in the spring of 2024. We hope so as it is now in a cold weather area an ESS is virtually unpractical according to the rules.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prin...tery-storage-electrical-code-issues-1.6693891
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prin...y-storage-solar-power-still-waiting-1.6965544

 

[Crowz]

I can't find anything on the net at least that says you have to have ul listed stuff for anything as it pertains to home owners insurance.

That said if your location (state, etc) requires certain things by law to be in compliance power wise then they could play that card in court to try to deny a claim. But since you don't have to hunt for ul listed items for your tv, toaster, etc there is no logical reason your solar stuff requires it unless otherwise required by your state, county, city, etc.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I can't find anything on the net at least that says you have to have ul listed stuff for anything as it pertains to home owners insurance.

That said if your location (state, etc) requires certain things by law to be in compliance power wise then they could play that card in court to try to deny a claim. But since you don't have to hunt for ul listed items for your tv, toaster, etc there is no logical reason your solar stuff requires it unless otherwise required by your state, county, city, etc.

I don’t know how insurance requires adds to homes.
Counties usually require permits for structural, electrical and mechanical.
Does that mean UL listed?
Not sure.

I just can’t see insurance companies covering claims because of negligent installs regardless of UL or anything else.

There has to be some point where the insurance company says ok that is fine.

 

[kennyb]

When we were shopping for new insurance companies the local company actually drove out here.

They wanted to see the building permit, engineering documents for the roof, and the electrical inspection report to insure the solar system. What was funny was that was because it was a new build. Had I said I purchased the building like that, they didn't care about any of that.

I don't know why anyone would risk it though . At least here, house prices are rediculous. Almost everyone has a massive mortgage. Would be pretty shit to be left holding the bag owing the bank with no asset after a total loss.

I don't see it as much difference to auto insurance. Lots of modified cars around here have no coverage after an accident when the insurance finds out that A, the modification wasn't declared, and B, used "for off road use only" parts. There was a news story a while back about a BRZ being a total loss and claim denied because the owner changed the exhaust.

But then again Ontario is a shitshow for insurance.

 

[Hymie]

What I’m learning the hard way from my recent experience is to get electrical work that is connected to the grid, and by that I mean even only drawing from it, passed by inspectors, the equipment must be certified with an appropriate certifying body. That may mean, as in Canada, cUL, CSA, or ETL. Once passed one gets a sign off which one can send to one’s insurance company. As far as insurance goes the devil is probably in the fine print of the policy stating that alterations to one’s property must meet code and the only way to verify that is to get it inspected.

 

[Lighthouse Beacon]

I’ve tried various wifi smoke detectors but this is my favorite combination. I’ve tested and smoke tested these units. Based on price I like using these in as many rooms as possible including in attics and basements, the great thing about Ring also is it integrates with existing systems well and the real time push notifications, emergency dialing, and indoor and outdoor auditory alert systems you can build, as well as push routine programs via Alexa integration. I want to know immediately when smoke is detected and not rely on being there… or my neighbor smelling it…. I recommend
Had to get a shot with the Sungold Logo in it… lmao

 

[Hedges]

Much of the crap out of china is anything but UL listed. https://a.co/d/4rN10BW
Top item in image is what they sold a year ago, bottom is current. What is missing ?
Ad at that link claims UL listing, FRAUD from Amazon. Surprise !! Not.

ETL counts for UL listing.

ETL counts. It's just as valid as UL listing.

UL vs ETL certifications: What's the difference? - RackSolutions

You see UL and ETL certifiations all over the place but what exactly do they mean and is there a difference between them?

www.racksolutions.com

"The main difference between UL and ETL listed products is that ETL doesn’t create its own standards for certification. UL develops standards that are used by other organizations, including ETL.

Both are Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs). They serve as non-governmental labs that operate independently. Additionally, they are recognized by OSHA as being suitable labs to test products based on safety standards."

ETL Listed Mark

www.intertek.com

"Here is a List of Standards we test to for the North American Market

• ASME
• ASTM
• ANSI
• CSA
• NFPA
• NOM
• NSF
• UL / ULC

Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory:
As an OSHA Recognized NRTL in the U.S., Intertek is able to test and certify products for its customers across its global network of laboratories. Read more..."

 

[42OhmsPA]

I’ve tried various wifi smoke detectors but this is my favorite combination. I’ve tested and smoke tested these units. Based on price I like using these in as many rooms as possible including in attics and basements, the great thing about Ring also is it integrates with existing systems well and the real time push notifications, emergency dialing, and indoor and outdoor auditory alert systems you can build, as well as push routine programs via Alexa integration. I want to know immediately when smoke is detected and not rely on being there… or my neighbor smelling it…. I recommendView attachment 181193View attachment 181195View attachment 181200
Had to get a shot with the Sungold Logo in it… lmao

I'm glad to see you have traditional detectors as well... What happens to the ring when the interwebs go down?

 

[Lighthouse Beacon]

I'm glad to see you have traditional detectors as well... What happens to the ring when the interwebs go down?

Nothing. It’s traditional detectors but the ring devices are “listeners”. You train the listener the sounds of different alarm devices, smoke, carbon monoxide etc. When the listener detects it still pops local alarms, so a siren I’ve got located outside will scream. Neighbor will wonder what’s wrong etc. If internet modem burnt before smoke detected the push alerts won’t escape to my phone, emergency sms contacts, or emergency monitoring etc. but that would be rare. The system still is operational locally. The main focus of this is for you to get a push that your house has detected smoke while you’re standing in the grocery store, you then connect to your camera in your workshop and see smoke. You then call 911, call your neighbor, and haul ass 90mph back home.

Based on my research early detection, much like any problem, is absolutely crucial for successful mitigation

 

[42OhmsPA]

Nothing. It’s traditional detectors but the ring devices are “listeners”. You train the listener the sounds of different alarm devices, smoke, carbon monoxide etc. When the listener detects it still pops local alarms, so a siren I’ve got located outside will scream. Neighbor will wonder what’s wrong etc. If internet modem burnt before smoke detected the push alerts won’t escape to my phone, emergency sms contacts, or emergency monitoring etc. but that would be rare. The system still is operational locally. The main focus of this is for you to get a push that your house has detected smoke while you’re standing in the grocery store, you then connect to your camera in your workshop and see smoke. You then call 911, call your neighbor, and haul ass 90mph back home.

Understood, the point I was trying to make was none of the additional notifications will work if the internet were to fail.
Agreed a 'perfect storm' is unlikely.

Based on my research early detection, much like any problem, is absolutely crucial for successful mitigation

Absolutely agree. Reminds me of PFMEAs in my work life.

 

[J.H.]

Noticing how much of the DIY solar equipment being sold doesn’t have any UL or cUL listing, or approvals of any sort for that matter, I’m wondering how using these items could affect an owner’s home insurance if a claim was to arise?

Well as they say in the old country, you are toast…if you threaten to sue, their attorneys on retainer get a rise…they love to get paid for simply telling the ins co to stonewall you..
the can outlast all but true big whigs and get paid well while waiting for you to go broke..

 

[sunsurfer]

So if you live somewhere with no county inspectors, or codes, does that mean your covered?

My house I'm building is fire, flood, tornado, etc...proof...no insurance needed for the structure.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

So if you live somewhere with no county inspectors, or codes, does that mean your covered?

My house I'm building is fire, flood, tornado, etc...proof...no insurance needed for the structure.

You building a monolithic dome?

 

[Lighthouse Beacon]

So if you live somewhere with no county inspectors, or codes, does that mean your covered?

My house I'm building is fire, flood, tornado, etc...proof...no insurance needed for the structure.

Need more info on this build please share

 

[JS43]

f I was putting solar in a RV or a shed /cabin conversion I would not be to concerned If it burns it burns not much to lose really

Really? What about those who live full time in their RV? That is a pretty sad comment.

 

[Madcodger]

I'm not an attorney. That said, I think one of the core things we must remember is that insurance coverage is basically just a contract between two, private entities: You, and the insurance company. There are some state regulations that protect consumers, but for the most part, it's considered an arms-length transaction between two parties. Because the coverage renews periodically (usually once each year), the insurance company gets to set new terms at each renewal. If you agree to those terms, they'll renew you for whatever price they set. If you don't agree, then you're forced to shop for another carrier, IF YOU CAN FIND ONE, at that future point in time. To me, this is the big risk for those of us who wish to DIY it. We may well get acceptable coverage today, but all it takes is some effective lobbying by an interested (financially motivated) party, or a couple of high profile losses by an insurer, and suddenly we find ourselves in a pickle to get coverage. Anyway, that's my biggest worry with the DIY route. I haven't yet made a decision about the new house we're planning for next year, but this is the thing I'm pondering the most.

 

[sunsurfer]

Need more info on this build please share

Not to derail this thread but it will be a monolithic pill shaped concrete dome with a loft. dimensions 20' x 40' 712 sq ft down stairs and 400 sq ft upstairs. The inner core is a GFRC 2" cement shell with basalt reinforcement, middle layer is an insulative light weight polystyrene foam/papercrete cement (E.P.I.C.) 12" layer and then a thin stucco type outer shell. Light weight, strong and aerodynamic. Partial earth sheltered.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

There was a guy (engineer type) on the hurricane coast (florida?, gulf coast?) who built his home entirely out of concrete. Not as a dome, but as straight walls & such. I believe he had been hit, and what happened was some doors/windows blew out, but the structure was not affected in the least.

In my mind, this is what you might need to do in certain areas, to avoid catastrophic destruction from direct hits by hurricane, tornado, etc. ... being an engineer doesn't hurt either.

Of course, being a good idea, this will never happen on the first mile of coast line, where homes routinely get destroyed and then rebuilt, using the same methods that got the home destroyed.

I imagine his insurance premium was fairly low!