What I'm learning about DIY Enphase and Hoymiles Microinverters

[ncsolarelectric]

Just wanted to touch base and see how the systems been working.

It works great. The weather has been crap. I learned that I can turn the HM inverter off and on from the S-Miles Cloud platform with just a click. I can upload a new grid profile in seconds and it works, but it's still doesn't share very well with the IQ8s on microgrid. The HM inverter still does most of the work, but it doesn't seem to hurt anything. It outputs 356W peak daily, for a few minutes anyway when the sun is out.

I ordered the meter and CTs so I can test the zero-export function.
I ordered a battery, fuse, and a constant-current power limiter to test its performance from a battery.
Most of it won't be here until Friday. We shall see...

Thanks.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

I think you'll like this one. A 24kW system using 2000W Quad Microinverters!. Sorry about the typos. This person is using 450W panels and there will be no, nada, zero, zip, zilch, clipping due to the inverters. I love it.

 

[littleboss]

When I learned about the IQ8 Microinverters and their ability to run off-grid with "Sunlight Backup", I had to try it. I was going to put in a SolarEdge system in 2020, but due to the plague, it never happened. I installed a backyard ballasted ground mount, using Unirac RM10 racks and CMU blocks. Jinko 400W PERK panels, and Enphase IQ8Plus-72-2-US inverters. Sunlight Backup and Battery Backup with Enphse both require their System Controller 2, which has the split-phase "neutral forming" transformer and the automatic transfer switch. A pricey piece of equipment!
So on Thursday 6/9/22, my system passed the final inspection, and the utility granted PTO the same day. The next morning when I tried to start my system, I couldn't because of these factors that I missed, when I went through the Enphase training. It's in there, but it's confusing. Also a word of warning to DIYers. Enphase's 25 Year Warranty requires that the system be installed by a Certified Enphase Installer. If you don't go through their training, you'll void your warranty.

1. A grid-tied solar system only requires Wifi, but when using the System Controller 2 for either Sunlight or Battery Backup. A cellular modem is required to commission the system. The App will not let me provision the system without a Cell modem. I didn't buy one until yesterday.
2. A Sunlight backup system is required to have 2 Load Controllers. I only have two 20A circuits, so I only bought 1 LC. The App will not let me provision the system without 2 LCs. So I would need to buy something I don't need, to make the system operate. (OUCH!)
3. A Battery backup system does not require the 2 LCs. So rather than waste money on a second LC I don't need, I invested in the IQ Battery 3T which I had intended to do eventually from the beginning. I just didn't expect it to be "required" to commission the system.

The last thing I learned is, that there are new alternative microinverters that are UL Listed, CA Rule 21 approved, and are less than half the price of Enphase. They are very user-friendly for DIYers and practically plug-n-play.

So you say you were doing a DIY Enphase project at home but at the same time you run a solar company? Sounds like you are really here to promote your company- though I do appreciate the DIY info on Enphase... If you are a company you should be certified with Enphase anyway...

 

[ncsolarelectric]

So you say you were doing a DIY Enphase project at home but at the same time you run a solar company? Sounds like you are really here to promote your company- though I do appreciate the DIY info on Enphase... If you are a company you should be certified with Enphase anyway...

I don't run a solar installation company, I try to provide engineering services, sell parts, and get people hooked up on the cheap. I haven't sold squat this year, so if that's why I'm here, it's been a colossal waste of time! I enjoy tinkering, I'm old and bored.

This thread has evolved into testing the Hoymiles alternative to Enphase, and so far I am very impressed with their products. I've put out a flurry of videos on my YT channel about my tinkering.

Thanks.

 

[Don-B]

So you say you were doing a DIY Enphase project at home but at the same time you run a solar company? Sounds like you are really here to promote your company- though I do appreciate the DIY info on Enphase... If you are a company you should be certified with Enphase anyway...

He has been very helpful to a lot of us, providing insight/giving some of us newbs help and just helped me setup account for hoymiles (which I bought from signature solar before they ran out of stock and before I found out this forum exist)
Gotta give credit where credit is due. There are a number of folks who are here to sell product but I think the mods ban em pretty quickly.

 

[ChrisG]

Just spent time going through this thread. Ton of valuable information here. At my primary home, looking to start off small since I have no inductive loads to deal in a critical loads panel unlike the well pump at my cabin offgrid/hybrid system. Does the enphase IQ7 system come along with all the baggage to get 'approval' and such to run from enphase themselves like IQ8? Looking for a simple GT system like IQ7 to get up and running quickly with agreements/permits/etc in Charlotte NC before NEC2020 kicks in. I want to sweep behind the install of this GT system with a hybrid inverter like Skybox/Radian/Sol-Ark that can frequency shift the IQ7s if grid power is down. @Ampster, similar to your setup to keep the cost down compared to a full enphase battery system.

So the TLDR question; just looking for enphase GT simple system (hopefully IQ7) to start without all the complexities and purchases the OP had. Reading now about the other micro in this thread, but want to keep things simple with a known manufacturer.

 

[fromport]

Does the enphase IQ7 system come along with all the baggage to get 'approval' and such to run from enphase themselves like IQ8?

Yes, but why would you even consider IQ7 (7th generation) while they are selling the IQ8 (8th generation) for not much more money?

Looking for a simple GT system like IQ7 to get up and running quickly with agreements/permits/etc in Charlotte NC before NEC2020 kicks in. I want to sweep behind the install of this GT system with a hybrid inverter like Skybox/Radian/Sol-Ark that can frequency shift the IQ7s if grid power is down. @Ampster, similar to your setup to keep the cost down compared to a full enphase battery system.

So the TLDR question; just looking for enphase GT simple system (hopefully IQ7) to start without all the complexities and purchases the OP had. Reading now about the other micro in this thread, but want to keep things simple with a known manufacturer.

Unless you can buy IQ7 for 1/2 price of IQ8, I would choose IQ8.
I am pretty sure with 1000x more computing power then the IQ7, the IQ8 can do UL1741-SA (frequency shift) much better/easier.

 

[Ampster]

am pretty sure with 1000x more computing power then the IQ7, the IQ8 can do UL1741-SA (frequency shift) much better/easier.

I agree the IQ8 is a far better product at a similar price. If UL741SA is a standard of how something responds, how is that response better or easier? To get UL 1741SA listing the product either passes the test or doesn't. UL doesn't issue grades, it is pass it fail. The hardest issue in AC coupling is the algorithm in the grid forming inverter. That is where I would want to spend energy focusing on if I was going that route.

 

[fromport]

I agree the IQ8 is a far better product at a similar price. If UL741SA is a standard of how something responds, how is that response better or easier? To get UL 1741SA listing the product either passes the test or doesn't. UL doesn't issue grades, it is pass it fail. The hardest issue in AC coupling is the algorithm in the grid forming inverter. That is where I would want to spend energy focusing on if I was going that route.

One of the tricks with enphase micro grid forming is to lower the voltage when eg a pump with a huge surge turns on.
Enphase does not keep the voltage at eg 240 but lowers the voltage and that way the load uses less amps and probably is able to start without stretching the other components. That is not something done by a central brain but done by each micro inverters algorithm.
I am convinced that an IQ8 does more magic behind the scenes than any IQ7.
Even though they are both certified for 1741SA like you said.
I also said: if you can get a real deal (50% of the price of an IQ8) you could/should consider the IQ7 simply because it will be a support act, not the main performer.

 

[Shimmy]

One of the tricks with enphase micro grid forming is to lower the voltage when eg a pump with a huge surge turns on.
Enphase does not keep the voltage at eg 240 but lowers the voltage and that way the load uses less amps and probably is able to start without stretching the other components. That is not something done by a central brain but done by each micro inverters algorithm.
I am convinced that an IQ8 does more magic behind the scenes than any IQ7.
Even though they are both certified for 1741SA like you said.
I also said: if you can get a real deal (50% of the price of an IQ8) you could/should consider the IQ7 simply because it will be a support act, not the main performer.

That is where the horsepower goes; load sharing on a soft source across dozens or hundreds of devices is hard and it is real-time. UL1741SA really is looking at more of a RMS level than a waveform level as I understand it.

 

[Ampster]

Grid forming is an entirely different issue than in grid dependant mode. The other poster was going to use them in grid dependant mode as GT inverters. I agree he should consider IQ8s. I just think he should put his energy into his choice of a grid forming hybrid inverter. He already figured out the IQ8 is too expensive compared to some hybrids. Even the SolArk which is an expensive hybrid is cheap by comparison to the IQ8 battery solution.

 

[ChrisG]

Can a new IQ8 system consist only of the microinverters, combiner with envoy and doesn’t need special permission from enphase to start up? If that is the case makes sense for iq8. I want simple and it seems the OP had a lot of hassle.

I have about 20kwh of my own batteries that I want to use which is why I want a hybrid inverter to AC couple to enphase. I have come to the conclusion with all the new codes coming in that if I want Solar on my roof in my area in Charlotte NC, an enphase system will hit the mark vs a dc coupled system entirely.

 

[fromport]

Can a new IQ8 system consist only of the microinverters, combiner with envoy and doesn’t need special permission from enphase to start up? If that is the case makes sense for iq8. I want simple and it seems the OP had a lot of hassle.

At this moment there are _no_ requirements to install an IQ8 grid tie only system.
All the requirements pop up as soon as you start thinking about enphase storage and/or solar backup.
Since you're not planning on using that you are good

 

[ncsolarelectric]

Can a new IQ8 system consist only of the microinverters, combiner with envoy and doesn’t need special permission from enphase to start up? If that is the case makes sense for iq8. I want simple and it seems the OP had a lot of hassle.

I have about 20kwh of my own batteries that I want to use which is why I want a hybrid inverter to AC couple to enphase. I have come to the conclusion with all the new codes coming in that if I want Solar on my roof in my area in Charlotte NC, an enphase system will hit the mark vs a dc coupled system entirely.

There is no way to activate IQ8 inverters without being certified, but if you're not installing the storage or sunlight backup options, then the testing for Enphase certification is not that difficult. However, you are in Charlotte, about 1 hour from me in Statesville. I've been through the training and I'm now Enphase Certified. So if you get it installed, I can set up your Envoy account for you.

On the other hand, if you just want grid-tied and not off-grid capability with battery, I would highly recommend the Hoymiles inverters. They have just as much output as an IQ8H, are less than half the cost, and are plug-n-play.

 

[Quattrohead]

Looking for a simple GT system like IQ7 to get up and running quickly with agreements/permits/etc in Charlotte NC before NEC2020 kicks in. I want to sweep behind the install of this GT system with a hybrid inverter like Skybox/Radian/Sol-Ark that can frequency shift the IQ7s if grid power is down.

So the TLDR question; just looking for enphase GT simple system (hopefully IQ7) to start without all the complexities and purchases the OP had. Reading now about the other micro in this thread, but want to keep things simple with a known manufacturer.

Hi Chris,
I have 14 new old stock IQ7 listed in the for sale section. 8 have the MC4 connector and 6 do not.

 

[fromport]

There is no way to activate IQ8 inverters without being certified,

https://cloud.email.enphase.com/training-guide says otherwise
IQ8 PV (grid-tied) -> Required Enphase University courses: (Nothing at this time.)

On the other hand, if you just want grid-tied and not off-grid capability with battery, I would highly recommend the Hoymiles inverters. They have just as much output as an IQ8H, are less than half the cost, and are plug-n-play.

Pushing your own agenda/sales again?
A chinese product with no presence in the USA is not the same as a usa designed & based company that manufactures in 4 different places in the world.
You might feel good about Hoymiles, but you are pushing it way too hard imo

 

[ncsolarelectric]

https://cloud.email.enphase.com/training-guide says otherwise
IQ8 PV (grid-tied) -> Required Enphase University courses: (Nothing at this time.)


Pushing your own agenda/sales again?
A chinese product with no presence in the USA is not the same as a usa designed & based company that manufactures in 4 different places in the world.
You might feel good about Hoymiles, but you are pushing it way too hard imo

So you think that if there is no storage, the Installer App is just going to let you Provision the Inverters if you're not at all certified? This I gotta see to believe! For my install, it would not let me proceed until I was fully certified. There was no way around it.
I also have a friend who is installing IQ8H without storage. He called Enphase and they told him he needs to take the installer certification training. Did they tell him wrong? Or is their online info wrong? This is the first time I've seen you or anyone say there is no cert required for simple grid-tied connections.

Since you are a certified Enphase installer, you're pushing your agenda hard too, obviously. Always mocking because Hoymiles are Chinese, and boasting Enphase. They are a corporate giant control freak, IMO but compared to the HM inverter in a cast aluminum case, Enphase looks like cheap plastic and sheetmetal to me.

 

[ChrisG]

I just enrolled, assume the minimum setup information I’m asking about for simple GT is there. I’m trying to simply understand if the basic enphase parts are the same for IQ7 and 8: micro->combiner with envoy->electrical panel. I know there are other parts in between all that but trying to understand the minimum for simple grid tie.

 

[Ampster]

Can a new IQ8 system consist only of the microinverters, combiner with envoy and doesn’t need special permission from enphase to start up? If that is the case makes sense for iq8. I want simple and it seems the OP had a lot of hassle

I installed an IQ7 system with a used Envoy and they work just fine. I would hope that the IQ8 is the same way as far as just being a GT, grid dependant inverter. The OP added the System Controller so that he could run his IQ8 off grid. That is where the "hassle" he described came about. After I got that system approved and received my PTO, I installed my Outback Skybox.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

https://cloud.email.enphase.com/training-guide says otherwise
IQ8 PV (grid-tied) -> Required Enphase University courses: (Nothing at this time.)


Pushing your own agenda/sales again?
A chinese product with no presence in the USA is not the same as a usa designed & based company that manufactures in 4 different places in the world.
You might feel good about Hoymiles, but you are pushing it way too hard imo

I just enrolled, assume the minimum setup information I’m asking about for simple GT is there. I’m trying to simply understand if the basic enphase parts are the same for IQ7 and 8: micro->combiner with envoy->electrical panel. I know there are other parts in between all that but trying to understand the minimum for simple grid tie.

Yes, the cables are the same. The combiner box is the same. You just don't need the system controller 2 or the cell modem. You still need the Wifi adapter to communicate with the Envoy over wifi.