Common sense actually. If a battery had exploded you would see it in that photo. Zero signs of a battery explosion, and I mean zero.
Wow, basen rack.mounts batteries destroy a home in germany
- Thread starter houseofancients
- Start date
Bluedog225
Texas
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2019
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I don’t think venting gas would require a battery explosion.
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superchachi
New Member
This whole discussion has been a fascinating. It's all over the map!
I am personally interested in designing my systems for events that happen at the margin. It's those moments that I want things to work the most. Heat, electricity, etc
I have no idea how well all of the battery cells I purchased recently are built. Possible that they crack, have a manufacturing defect? What about the BMSs?
What IS interesting and important to me, is what could happen if something goes sideways. And, a LOT of things seem to go sideways on a regular basis. Why are so many people in this thread getting their pants in a wad because some are thinking through the potential next evolution of battery safety?
One of the things I started thinking about when looking at the earlier posts about the battery study (I did not read it yet) was, what if any "tells" are there that we can easily / cheaply look out for to detect a run away cell / event? These little ESP32 boards are so cheap and easy to program...could we not monitor cell voltages to detect a run away and then open a disconnect device and/or turn on a venting system/alarm?
I am personally interested in designing my systems for events that happen at the margin. It's those moments that I want things to work the most. Heat, electricity, etc
I have no idea how well all of the battery cells I purchased recently are built. Possible that they crack, have a manufacturing defect? What about the BMSs?
What IS interesting and important to me, is what could happen if something goes sideways. And, a LOT of things seem to go sideways on a regular basis. Why are so many people in this thread getting their pants in a wad because some are thinking through the potential next evolution of battery safety?
One of the things I started thinking about when looking at the earlier posts about the battery study (I did not read it yet) was, what if any "tells" are there that we can easily / cheaply look out for to detect a run away cell / event? These little ESP32 boards are so cheap and easy to program...could we not monitor cell voltages to detect a run away and then open a disconnect device and/or turn on a venting system/alarm?
A typical BMS does that already. In order for thermal runaway to occur in LFP, an external heat source is required - at which point your BMS will shut everything off. If the cell voltage in a cell suddenly drops, the BMS will shut it all off. If a cell voltage goes too high, the BMS will shut it all off. So any energy going in or out of the battery will be cut off in case an anomaly cell event occurs.
superchachi
New Member
Thanks. But, if the BMS fails...then? I know all of this is unlikely, but then again, my house burned to the ground a few years ago. I didn't think that was likely either. It had nothing to do with batteries, solar, or anything other than an unlikely chain of events.
Shit happens.
I am wondering if there is a simple means to detect and deal with an off-gassing event.
Indicators:
over/under cell voltage
ambient temp
gas level detection
Solutions / Aids:
steel / fireproof enclosure
battery disconnect
passive pressure release
active venting
I have 8 batteries to put together. This type of stuff was already on my mind. I have no idea what happened to this guy's house. But, I do believe that LiFePo4 batteries, while very safe for the most part, can be very dangerous in the right conditions. I am curious what might be easy ways to detect if any/all of those conditions are present.
I am already considering things like a 200a contactor on each battery...more sensors is not a huge deal for me.
Shit happens.
I am wondering if there is a simple means to detect and deal with an off-gassing event.
Indicators:
over/under cell voltage
ambient temp
gas level detection
Solutions / Aids:
steel / fireproof enclosure
battery disconnect
passive pressure release
active venting
I have 8 batteries to put together. This type of stuff was already on my mind. I have no idea what happened to this guy's house. But, I do believe that LiFePo4 batteries, while very safe for the most part, can be very dangerous in the right conditions. I am curious what might be easy ways to detect if any/all of those conditions are present.
I am already considering things like a 200a contactor on each battery...more sensors is not a huge deal for me.
Best thing to do: don't have the batteries in the main house. In my case, they are in the same building where the wood boiler and water filters are located. No matter what technology you put in place to detect things: it can fail. So how many redundancies is enough? Each battery is fused, the charge controller and inverter configured properly to disconnect on over/under voltage, the BMS as a protection device, and cells not charged to more than 3.5V or so. If the building is then ventilated properly (as it should) there is nothing more you can do except get insurance that covers everything should things go wrong somehow.
Partimewages
Solar Addict
Design correctly! Then maintenance regularly! These two things will mitigate most issues. There are always accidents.
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
Plus one +1
That’s why , as I stated in previous posts , all of my gear and batts are in aluminum trailer ,
18 ft away from any structure… panels are 50 ft away…
The only connection to where I live or sleep is the RV factory 50 amp shore power cord..If ever see the trailer aggressively smoking out of the seams or cracks , ( conditionally) I probably won’t be opening or trying to stop it..giving it more oxygen won’t solve anything…I will go get a beer , grab a yard hose to stop any spreading but that’s all…
and no , I have no insurence at all on any solar stuff ..
Some times it just ain’t a good day…
If the battery or batteries had exploded it would have blown the doors and windows out, not brought the entire home down. You would also see discoloration around the batteries and case or cases blown apart and there would be denting and holes in the door of rhe cabinet holding the batteries. So....
k490
Solar Enthusiast
I know this isn't exactly related but here is the report from a 2019 battery storage explosion here in Arizona. It's a very detailed report although they are using Lithium-Ion batteries instead. It's still interesting to read about a battery storage systems built by smart people and backed by millions of dollars can still explode.
One thing they noted was thermal runway of one cell caused other cells to heat up due to lack of a thermal barrier between cells. One bad cell could cause others to vent as well due to the heat transfer to next cell.
One thing they noted was thermal runway of one cell caused other cells to heat up due to lack of a thermal barrier between cells. One bad cell could cause others to vent as well due to the heat transfer to next cell.
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houseofancients
Solar Wizard
And this is exactly the reason li-ion shouldn't be used as solar storage, not to mention, shouldn't be anywhere near someone's home
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TommySr
Solar Enthusiast
should BMS's include carbon monoxide sensors?
my gut says no because once it present it's too late for the battery cell (damage is done).
Tommy
SE Wisconsin
my gut says no because once it present it's too late for the battery cell (damage is done).
Tommy
SE Wisconsin
Daddy Tanuki
Solar Wizard
lithium cells in a Kiln... this will not end well. I am hoping you have a video so we can watch the carnage....
TommySr
Solar Enthusiast
Mr Tanuki, I'll be sure to start a topic here in up in smoke if (or when) it happens.
Tommy
SE Wisconsin
Daddy Tanuki
Solar Wizard
that is a ceramic firing kiln right? I had images of you accidentally flicking the power on after a couple of stiff drinks!
TommySr
Solar Enthusiast
that is a ceramic firing kiln right? I had images of you accidentally flicking the power on after a couple of stiff drinks!
Mr Tanuki, not likely, with the grandkids now off to collage, the kiln's power cord is being used by the 5kw gas generator
to power the house when the grid fails.
That doesn't mean I won't be posting here on UP IN SMOKE in the near future, because I'm making a DIY BMS.
Tommy
SE Wisconsin
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Daddy Tanuki
Solar Wizard
Tommy the name is Ken, a Tanuki is an animal peculiar to Japan that looks like a cross between a racoon and a dog, matter of fact most service members call them racoon dogs. so basically I am a lovable mischievous trash panda.
that is a kiln though right? to have one of those in your own home is actually pretty impressive with what they cost. laugh folks, When the SHTF the ability to make things like jugs, plates etc, will be worth something! just gotta figure out how to power it via solar
good luck with the DIY BMS I am not nearly that ballsy.
That's exactly what I thought when I read the article. Maybe a loose connection sparked or heated up, or like you said a relay triggered a spark, that then set off some other type of gas leak.
There's no way one of those battery packs blew holes through concrete. A lot of houses in Germany are built out of thick concrete / cinder block, and it would take a hell of a lot of energy to break that apart to the point of structural failure.
That basement photo looks like someone set off a pound of tannerite.
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