Paralyzed by information overload
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OffGridInTheCity
Solar Wizard
Off-grid w/grid assist is not the same as hybrid. Off-grid w/grid assist is a unit that takes power IN (in only) from PV, Battery, and AC (grid assist part) and outputs AC for consumption. It creates output AC by using the battery and uses the AC in and PV in to charge the battery. The AC in let's it continue to run/charge the battery even with no Sun - e.g. the 'grid assist' part.
Hybrid (typically) has the ability to back feed the grid in addition to the above. In some hybrid's you can disable the back feed of the grid and make them 'like' the off-grid w/grid-assist above.
Which inverter are you specifically talking of that is off grid with GAB?
ricardocello
Watching and Learning
For the Victron multiplus and quattro, if you don’t install the ESS assistant, it should not backfeed the grid.
OffGridInTheCity
Solar Wizard
As a simpler, cheaper example of off-grid with grid assist I use an MPP Solar 3048LV AIO in my camp trailer. You feed it 120v AC input, PV input, and 48v battery input. It provides up to 3000w of 120v AC output. Here's a link - https://shopsolarkits.com/products/...-145vdc-battery-charger-60a-3048lv-mk-3kw-48v
I'm not pushing MPP Solar but just providing an example. If you go to youtube and see one of these off-grid AIO's installed, hooked up, you'll see the 120v AC, PV, and battery connections and it might make sense for you. @Will Prowse has done a TON of great youtubes on various AIOs (MPP Solar, EG4, Growatt, xxxx, and high end Victron etc) would be a suggestion to get started.
Here's a basic AIO off-grid w/grid assist.
At the next level from 120v only is US 240v/120v split-phase. This is the same in concept but you need a more expensive unit or to parallel 2 x 120v units to get the 240v. Unless you need 240v I might suggest just something smaller/cheaper and just get it working.... and gain a TON of experience, 1st runs of wire, and upgrade from there. Once you have a basic system and operate it, things will start to become clear and help you with more advanced growth assuming you DIY!!
If not DIY and $ are not a big issue, then they're making pretty beefy 'power stations' these days and they even have wheels - you can just roll it into the garage and hook it up to a critical loads panel. Starting at 8:50 in this youtube you can see a DIY install of one of these units but an electrician can do the install part for you.
I'm not pushing MPP Solar but just providing an example. If you go to youtube and see one of these off-grid AIO's installed, hooked up, you'll see the 120v AC, PV, and battery connections and it might make sense for you. @Will Prowse has done a TON of great youtubes on various AIOs (MPP Solar, EG4, Growatt, xxxx, and high end Victron etc) would be a suggestion to get started.
Here's a basic AIO off-grid w/grid assist.
At the next level from 120v only is US 240v/120v split-phase. This is the same in concept but you need a more expensive unit or to parallel 2 x 120v units to get the 240v. Unless you need 240v I might suggest just something smaller/cheaper and just get it working.... and gain a TON of experience, 1st runs of wire, and upgrade from there. Once you have a basic system and operate it, things will start to become clear and help you with more advanced growth assuming you DIY!!
If not DIY and $ are not a big issue, then they're making pretty beefy 'power stations' these days and they even have wheels - you can just roll it into the garage and hook it up to a critical loads panel. Starting at 8:50 in this youtube you can see a DIY install of one of these units but an electrician can do the install part for you.
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Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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An AIO that is batteries optional, with net metering or at least permission to connect a zero-export system, could let PV blend with grid to reduce usage during the day. Like A/C or pool pump.
Small battery helps motor starting surge when grid is down. Even 4x car batteries in series for 48V (but I'm not sure how to prevent deep discharge, depends on AIO settings.)
Battery will cost at least 2x what PV panels do, maybe much more. So prefer to avoid unless a particular benefit is worthwhile.
Small battery helps motor starting surge when grid is down. Even 4x car batteries in series for 48V (but I'm not sure how to prevent deep discharge, depends on AIO settings.)
Battery will cost at least 2x what PV panels do, maybe much more. So prefer to avoid unless a particular benefit is worthwhile.
I only need a 240v if I'm wanting to run my dryer, stove, etc. right?
For an off grid inverter, the 120vAC input is wiring from a circuit breaker?
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Older dryers and stoves use both 120V and 240V, even if 3-prong plug with only L1, L2, G. The dryers run a 7A motor with current in ground wire. They also run on 120V only.
There can be ways to use autotransformer, but you're better off with equipment that supports 120/240V split-phase natively.
There can be ways to use autotransformer, but you're better off with equipment that supports 120/240V split-phase natively.
What are a few inverters that are battery optional?
I've seen that video he does on that MPP Solar. I just watched it again. Where I get confused is on the real life application. He's putting two ends of an extension cord to the AC input and output.
Hedges
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I haven't kept track of exact models but think a number of the Growatt, MPP, maybe EG4, SolArk can operate without batteries. Especially for PV and grid, but some at least for batteryless backup.
The latest SolArk I'm pretty sure does everything one could want. But some other brands hit lower price points.
Not sure yet about the new Midnight 10kW
diysolarforum.com
Check the data sheet and manual for any specific one you consider. I haven't used any, have noted the capability described for some. But as I said, at least a small battery will make it much more useful when grid is down. One guy was experimenting with EV battery feeding PV input of a GroWatt or similar. It could run small tools but not large. 4x car batteries and it could start and run heavy tools.
With the right model you should be able to start with just PV and grid connection for either shaving consumption or net metering, then add battery to shift time when power is drawn and support backup operation.
The latest SolArk I'm pretty sure does everything one could want. But some other brands hit lower price points.
Not sure yet about the new Midnight 10kW
Midnite Solar Announced their new 10kw AIO at Intersolar Today
Why would you need to give up the classics? AIO's have Solar Controller(s) and inverter/Charger built in. They don't use External Solar Controllers. The average cost of a Classic SCC is around $1K +/- if on sale & pending on location. I'd love to test something like this but as a 24V System...
diysolarforum.com
Check the data sheet and manual for any specific one you consider. I haven't used any, have noted the capability described for some. But as I said, at least a small battery will make it much more useful when grid is down. One guy was experimenting with EV battery feeding PV input of a GroWatt or similar. It could run small tools but not large. 4x car batteries and it could start and run heavy tools.
With the right model you should be able to start with just PV and grid connection for either shaving consumption or net metering, then add battery to shift time when power is drawn and support backup operation.
Nobodybusiness
Collecting the leftovers of the Great Sky Reactor.
Still can’t believe you spent all that time building those batteries from 18650 cells.Sure it's OK. My 'solar room' is 100ft away from the main panel in an opposite corner under the house. The issue for me was running wire to the main panel to tie in my solar inverters - but this is not 'bad' it's just extra effort and $ but I got the room I needed to expand. This pic is the result of 6 years of gradual expansion.
View attachment 205322
I'm off-grid w/grid assist so I distribute my solar produced power to my main panel via an ATS/MTS combination - e.g. small footprint at the main panel.
View attachment 205323
Depending on the inverter you buy (off-grid w/assist or hybrid), for 240v/120v AC you'll likely need to run at least 1 run of wire but maybe 2 runs (out and in). I'm US 240v/120v split-phase so that's 6awg THNN (3 wires + ground) from my inverter output to the main panel area. But its OK to run 100ft of wire from a functional perspective - there are inverter choices that do not have to be right next to the main AC panel.
View attachment 205325
PV wise, I have several hundred feet of wire to combine 51 panels over to the 'solar room'....
I started with 1 battery, 15 panels, and a single 2000w inverter powering a single 115v socket. Now I'm up to 51 panels, 10 batteries, and 24,000w of inverters.... just leave room to expand
I would be a gibbering idiot if I spent that much time.
You got some patience!!!!
OffGridInTheCity
Solar Wizard
No - two different 'cords'. 1 cord with male plug you can literally plug into a wall socket to get 120v AC coming into the unit (e.g. grid assist)
The other cord with female end is the AC coming out of the unit - you can plug in a power strip and power several loads such as a lights or a microwave or a refrigerator.
Okay, so you can wire the AC input with one end of an extension cord, and put the other end in an outlet. Got it. Otherwise you could wire it directly from it's own circuit in the main panel I'm guessing?
But for the output- it seems like a heavy setup just to be able to plug one thing into it. See what I mean? There's got to be more to it I'm guessing. To only be able to plug whatever happens to be closest to it into it. How can the output be maximized?
Not inverter but Off grid AIO's (Solar inverters is a term you will see). There are many on the market today of various ratings. It helps to understand that there are various components inside with particular specifications to a solar setup. All in ones (AIO) come in several flavors and capacities. Some are U/L listed, if that is needed for permitting, and others are listed by Foreign testing labs.
Off grid AIO's and many relabeled units are Chinese made from several factories. Voltronic, SRNE, LuxPower, and a few more I can't think of at the moment. Even the Victron ( inverter/chargers in the US, no AIO available) are Chinese sourced components though it is a European company.
Off Grid AIO's act like an UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) Where AC from grid is one source of power and battery/PV to inverter is another. They can be set to choose which is preferred and which is fall back if the other is not available. Depending on the model of AIO some can be set to use either source on a time basis a which allows those folks that have different grid charges based on time of day to take advantage of that.
OffGridInTheCity
Solar Wizard
Yes
The unit will have a maximum output. A 3000w inverter is 120v @ 25a - so you could use a power strip and plug in a refrigerator, a microwave, some lights, and some other small stuff - e.g. 'power strip with 6 plugs' and that's all a 3000w inverter can do. A 6000w inverter can do twice as much stuff and so on.
If you don't like a power strip, you can wire the AC output to an MTS (Manual Transfer Switch) that's hooked into you're main panel to power 5 or 6 or 10 *house* circuits - e.g. kitchen, bathroom, office etc. There is a range of MTSs with 3 circuits up to 10 circuits depending on what you need. Here's an example of a 6 circuit MTS install.
An MTS is the same idea as a critical loads sub-panel, it's just let you choose each individual circuit to be grid (line) or solar (gen) instead of all or nothing.
Here's an overview of an AIO..... with AC, PV, and Battery input and AC Output wired to home circuits.....
and as you said, you could wire the AC input from the main panel instead of doing a plug into the wall. In this scenario, you'd need install a circuit/wire from the Main Panel to the AIO at the 'solar room' and then from the AIO to the MTS at the main panel.
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This!!! This is what I needed!! This pulls it all together for me!
Can an automatic transfer switch be used? Almost like a "set it and forget it"?
Yep I started with 3000 watt inverter but can put 30 of them up on my wall I started on
gonna go 6000XP for next unit though
OffGridInTheCity
Solar Wizard
An AIO such as MPP Solar discussed above is functionally an ATS/UPS that produces seamless AC output from PV, Battery, and Grid input. When the battery runs down, the AIO uses grid to ensure continuing AC output and when the battery get's charged up (by PV or grid) it uses the battery to provide the AC output - automatically "set it and forget it".
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