Ah OK. I will continue to look out for other options and hope to see some posts about some successful testing of a cost effective generator that has been successfully integrated with a Sol-Ark 12K.
Need your advice on best dual fuel generator for 12K Sol-Ark
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Just received confirmation from Engineer775 on Youtube that the Champion Power Equipment 100199 8.5-kW Home Standby Generator (so far seen as low as $2,399) integrates well with the Sol-Ark 12K.
I asked the following question on one of his YouTube videos: "Scott, Have you successfully tied this 8.5KW to the Gen input of any of your Sol-Ark 12K installs? Have you been able to get the Sol-Ark 12K to successfully auto 2wire start the Champion 8.5 and does the Sol-Ark 12K reliably accept the Champion 8.5K's output?"
Engineer775 replied there: Engineer775 22 hours ago: "Yes they were great together"
The video showing his most recent install (don't believe this particular one was a Sol-Ark though most of his are):
Though I was originally looking for a dual-fuel and possibly a portable generator to full-fill my needs (like the OP) considering my HOA I likely would need to build a sound dampening box to have a portable generator semi-permanently integrated with a Sol-Ark which would be my goal. Ideally whatever solution I get I would want the Sol-Ark to be able to auto-start and auto-recharge my batteries (and maybe even do periodic checks and what not as well) so this may be better for me than a portable dual-fuel generator anyway (especially if they are going to cost around the same price or more & no one can attest that they got them fully integrated successfully)...
I asked the following question on one of his YouTube videos: "Scott, Have you successfully tied this 8.5KW to the Gen input of any of your Sol-Ark 12K installs? Have you been able to get the Sol-Ark 12K to successfully auto 2wire start the Champion 8.5 and does the Sol-Ark 12K reliably accept the Champion 8.5K's output?"
Engineer775 replied there: Engineer775 22 hours ago: "Yes they were great together"
The video showing his most recent install (don't believe this particular one was a Sol-Ark though most of his are):
Though I was originally looking for a dual-fuel and possibly a portable generator to full-fill my needs (like the OP) considering my HOA I likely would need to build a sound dampening box to have a portable generator semi-permanently integrated with a Sol-Ark which would be my goal. Ideally whatever solution I get I would want the Sol-Ark to be able to auto-start and auto-recharge my batteries (and maybe even do periodic checks and what not as well) so this may be better for me than a portable dual-fuel generator anyway (especially if they are going to cost around the same price or more & no one can attest that they got them fully integrated successfully)...
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Ozark Tinkering
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@nodoze I think that would be a contender for me too if I were planning a permanent installation. For my purpose a portable works better, plus it will probably be easier to resell when I'm ready to downgrade inverter/gen size for topping off batteries. Currently I have no batteries so I need more generated power to meet my needs in an outage.
Thanks for all the good info & ideas you have contributed. This thread is for generators for Sol-Ark 12Ks so I am trying to keep the focus somewhat there (and that is my primary goal as well).
That being said I will still keep out hope that someone documents a successful integration (2wire start/stop/etc) with a Sol-Ark 12K of a cost effective portable dual-fuel generator. I won't mind building an enclosure if it saves money and gives more flexibility.
50ShadesOfDirt
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OP still around? What exactly is the "THD" problem he is facing? Is it a very old existing genny, built before the current crop of open-frame gennies (a few years back)? Is he fighting the hype of "THD is bad for everything in the house"? HVAC will die if a high-thd genny is used?
Over on PowerEquipmentForum, we debate THD stuff pretty heavily; from everything I can gather, it's more a marketing-driven FUD tactic, than a "real" problem. HVAC control boards will die from many other common things in your power system (power surges chief among them), long before supposed THD gets them. Things in your house (UPS's, switching power supplies, etc.) will throw off their own THD back into your power system, and so on (it's been this way for years, now).
Not saying you shouldn't buy into the THD FUD, as what it does well is drive the sales of very expensive/complex gennies, with less power than their open-frame counterparts; this is good for the economy overall (in dollar sales)!
But, in the open-frame genny world, it is the type of stator/rotor (mecce-alta is the best), and/or the vendors' own choices in parts, that make for a lower THD genny; most recent years' gennies meet this trend (whether or not they report THD). Couple that with how you operate it, as your operating procedures could increase THD (variable loads, running at/near max) regardless of reported THD numbers.
In my own case, I use a 12%THD duromax propane 12kw ... for years now ... no THD problems; in my case, it just drives an inverter/charger (at a steady 50% or less, 240v load) to refill the battery bank, so in reality it throws very little THD at all. I'm over 5 years now, and approaching 10, with a line of open-frame gennies (generac, duromax), and never a THD problem. No devices dying in the household.
Also consider that there *are* open-frame gennies, like the westinghouse "Wpro" line, with very low THD numbers if that is your highest weighting among tradeoffs, at much less cost/complexity than an inverter/generator ... and others, with some careful shopping, if you still want a low THD number.
Inverter/generators have higher costs, lower kw numbers, more expensive parts inside them, and complexity that looks like a jet engine (packed in tight). I couldn't figure out how to support/service them in my rural area (also why the Generac had to go).
As best I can tell, after lots of research, I've found 3 use cases where THD does need to be solved, with EE's getting involved ... factory complexes (weird motors), commercial buildings (lots of pc's and others), and recently, movie lighting suppliers (with massive lights & ballasts). At the home level ... zip; lots of FUD at the home level, but zip on facts.
Even with all the research, and absolutely nothing pointing at THD from gennies being bad for our households, there are still plenty who will say "nothing touches my home but an inverter/generator" ... more power to you (in a sense), as it is just one choice among many trade-offs to make (fuel type, KW, complexity, etc.)!
Hope this helps ...
Over on PowerEquipmentForum, we debate THD stuff pretty heavily; from everything I can gather, it's more a marketing-driven FUD tactic, than a "real" problem. HVAC control boards will die from many other common things in your power system (power surges chief among them), long before supposed THD gets them. Things in your house (UPS's, switching power supplies, etc.) will throw off their own THD back into your power system, and so on (it's been this way for years, now).
Not saying you shouldn't buy into the THD FUD, as what it does well is drive the sales of very expensive/complex gennies, with less power than their open-frame counterparts; this is good for the economy overall (in dollar sales)!
But, in the open-frame genny world, it is the type of stator/rotor (mecce-alta is the best), and/or the vendors' own choices in parts, that make for a lower THD genny; most recent years' gennies meet this trend (whether or not they report THD). Couple that with how you operate it, as your operating procedures could increase THD (variable loads, running at/near max) regardless of reported THD numbers.
In my own case, I use a 12%THD duromax propane 12kw ... for years now ... no THD problems; in my case, it just drives an inverter/charger (at a steady 50% or less, 240v load) to refill the battery bank, so in reality it throws very little THD at all. I'm over 5 years now, and approaching 10, with a line of open-frame gennies (generac, duromax), and never a THD problem. No devices dying in the household.
Also consider that there *are* open-frame gennies, like the westinghouse "Wpro" line, with very low THD numbers if that is your highest weighting among tradeoffs, at much less cost/complexity than an inverter/generator ... and others, with some careful shopping, if you still want a low THD number.
Inverter/generators have higher costs, lower kw numbers, more expensive parts inside them, and complexity that looks like a jet engine (packed in tight). I couldn't figure out how to support/service them in my rural area (also why the Generac had to go).
As best I can tell, after lots of research, I've found 3 use cases where THD does need to be solved, with EE's getting involved ... factory complexes (weird motors), commercial buildings (lots of pc's and others), and recently, movie lighting suppliers (with massive lights & ballasts). At the home level ... zip; lots of FUD at the home level, but zip on facts.
Even with all the research, and absolutely nothing pointing at THD from gennies being bad for our households, there are still plenty who will say "nothing touches my home but an inverter/generator" ... more power to you (in a sense), as it is just one choice among many trade-offs to make (fuel type, KW, complexity, etc.)!
Hope this helps ...
Thanks for all the info. My understanding is the 5%THD or less requirement is required in this usage case because the Original Poster (OP is not directly feeding his house from the generator but rather feeding the generator directly to a Hybrid Inverter that can control the generator (have it auto-start when batteries are low and what not)...
Thus the focus on this thread is feeding power to the GEN port on the Sol-Ark 12K and ideally doing it with a low cost (in the Original Poster's Initial Post he was hoping $1,000 or less (which may not be realistic))...
From his Initial Post the generator he currently has and has tested has too much hertz distortion and is not being accepted by the Sol-Ark 12K (I assume that he got that determination when trouble shooting with the inverter vendor). I don't know if the OP is grid-tied or not but at least my case I plan to be grid-tied Hybrid with battery backup with my Sol-Ark so there may be additional requirements than a non-grid tied Sol-Ark (don't know).
I think that it is a fairly common issue that Sol-Ark 12K expects very clean power (other Sol-Ark owners think their generator integration problems are frequency stability or THD) and this issue has been discussed in other threads as well (like this one for example):
Back up generator Solark 12k
I'm looking for 5,000 to 10,000 watt generator with 2 wire remote start capability. The inverter will autostart generator when batteries get low if the generator has 2 wire remote start capability. All I've found for remote start are generators that start via wireless fob.
diysolarforum.com
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50ShadesOfDirt
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Interesting, as I was prepared to add the SOL-ARK as a *4th* use case for low-THD ... just couldn't locate the supporting info on their website. I managed to locate an installation manual (2021 version), and in it's "generator integration" section, it has a line that reads:
"THD of less than 15% preferred but not required"
But, as this is grid-tied, maybe there's some unique interaction that I can't easily grasp yet. There was wording that *frequencies* have to match ...
So, not sure if I should add grid-tied inverters (or Sol-Ark specifically) as a 4th use case ... more research needed.
"THD of less than 15% preferred but not required"
But, as this is grid-tied, maybe there's some unique interaction that I can't easily grasp yet. There was wording that *frequencies* have to match ...
So, not sure if I should add grid-tied inverters (or Sol-Ark specifically) as a 4th use case ... more research needed.
Ozark Tinkering
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I took the time to read your thread/post describing your system and reasons for doing what you've done thus far. If you haven't spent the $30k to have a line brought in by your friendly neighborhood utility (did I miss that update?), I'm not sure what you think you would gain by adding grid tied inverters to your existing system. One of the biggest reasons one would choose Sol-Ark imo would be so they can have the best of both worlds and when you want that, THD becomes top priority. My grid-tied Enphase micro inverters are looking for <5% THD and if they don't see it that clean or better, they won't turn on and they don't care if it's the utility power or power from a Separately Derived System.
50ShadesOfDirt
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From my end, I'm only discussing THD issues/requirements to nail down the THD jello; I'm off-grid, and will remain so (I am not installing sol-ark's, micro-inverters, etc.) ... THD is an issue, but I've only been able to tie that issue to the above 3 use cases.
I think I have figured out that this thread discusses two or three separate issues, and I was trying to pick out what is driving the need for a low THD requirement. As best I can tell in this thread:
1. OP had a genny that caused THD grief, and w/o further info, I couldn't nail down what was the exact issue.
2. sol-ark inverters were mentioned, and a "requirement" of <5% THD was identified ... this qualified it, among numerous inverters, as being a special use case for low THD. unfortunately, I couldn't find that requirement myself, as the install guide says 15% or less.
3. enphase micro-inverters were mentioned, and these seem to have a <5% THD requirement, so I'm investigating that, to see if these are a 4th THD use case. Still digging ...
Hope that clears things up ...
I think I have figured out that this thread discusses two or three separate issues, and I was trying to pick out what is driving the need for a low THD requirement. As best I can tell in this thread:
1. OP had a genny that caused THD grief, and w/o further info, I couldn't nail down what was the exact issue.
2. sol-ark inverters were mentioned, and a "requirement" of <5% THD was identified ... this qualified it, among numerous inverters, as being a special use case for low THD. unfortunately, I couldn't find that requirement myself, as the install guide says 15% or less.
3. enphase micro-inverters were mentioned, and these seem to have a <5% THD requirement, so I'm investigating that, to see if these are a 4th THD use case. Still digging ...
Hope that clears things up ...
Ozark Tinkering
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That should make you immune to FUD.
The title OP chose was our first hint at what he wanted to discuss.
That led to the discussion on the various pieces of a hybrid system and how they are affected by a crappy sine wave and how it all needs to match.Thread Title said:
When you find yourself in a hole and people are throwing dirt on you...be the donkey.
50ShadesOfDirt
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Enphase MicroInverters somewhat sorted out ... after reading a handful of the tech support documents (storage recovery doc, tech brief for generators, etc.), it appears that they have several "conditions" (the best way I can describe their systems & software) where they either specify or qualify a low-THD generator (their "short" list).
This may depend on whether or not you have an enphase storage system, as one set of documents describes how to eliminate a SPoF in the batteries, where grid is out & battery usage dropped SOC too low, and now the system can't recover (easily) on its own. A genny can be used to help in this situation, but the genny can't interfere with the "PLC".
If you have microinverters with PLC's (comm devices?) in front of them, these comm devices are susceptible to distortion in the power system (they don't handle interference, so they stop comm'ing?), so Enphase has a short list of gennies that they've tested and state "no interference from"; the champion 6250 open-frame inverter (model 100519) is on this list.
If you have the "enphase management" system in the mix, there is an expanded list of gennies (mostly standby, like Kohler, Generac, and others). These are qualified by enphase, and added to their software management "list" that installers can pick from. If it isn't on this list, it has to be added by enphase.
Generacs aren't known for their "low" THD ratings (hard to find this rating listed anywhere), but they *are* known for being very "stiff" power sources; stiffness is a characteristic of the power grid, due to massive generators & such. For large THD use cases, EE's simulate this stiffness in the absence of the power grid by oversizing the genny, and ensuring load doesn't exceed 50% or thereabouts.
To swing this back to enphase, if a PLC is present, you do indeed need a low-THD genny, because enphase requires it, and tends to lock you out (warranty) if you don't have it. If you have the kind of system where enphase management software is in place, they have a list of (standby) gennies that they require, and they tend to lock you out if one of these aren't used.
Given that stuff in our houses throw THD back out into the power system, I don't understand how that would be handled by enphase, but apparently that isn't discussed anywhere.
Interesting reading ...
I'll add them as something like a 4th use case for low-THD, but on my list, it's because of some oddities in their system components and software.
Hope this helps ...
This may depend on whether or not you have an enphase storage system, as one set of documents describes how to eliminate a SPoF in the batteries, where grid is out & battery usage dropped SOC too low, and now the system can't recover (easily) on its own. A genny can be used to help in this situation, but the genny can't interfere with the "PLC".
If you have microinverters with PLC's (comm devices?) in front of them, these comm devices are susceptible to distortion in the power system (they don't handle interference, so they stop comm'ing?), so Enphase has a short list of gennies that they've tested and state "no interference from"; the champion 6250 open-frame inverter (model 100519) is on this list.
If you have the "enphase management" system in the mix, there is an expanded list of gennies (mostly standby, like Kohler, Generac, and others). These are qualified by enphase, and added to their software management "list" that installers can pick from. If it isn't on this list, it has to be added by enphase.
Generacs aren't known for their "low" THD ratings (hard to find this rating listed anywhere), but they *are* known for being very "stiff" power sources; stiffness is a characteristic of the power grid, due to massive generators & such. For large THD use cases, EE's simulate this stiffness in the absence of the power grid by oversizing the genny, and ensuring load doesn't exceed 50% or thereabouts.
To swing this back to enphase, if a PLC is present, you do indeed need a low-THD genny, because enphase requires it, and tends to lock you out (warranty) if you don't have it. If you have the kind of system where enphase management software is in place, they have a list of (standby) gennies that they require, and they tend to lock you out if one of these aren't used.
Given that stuff in our houses throw THD back out into the power system, I don't understand how that would be handled by enphase, but apparently that isn't discussed anywhere.
Interesting reading ...
I'll add them as something like a 4th use case for low-THD, but on my list, it's because of some oddities in their system components and software.
Hope this helps ...
Ozark Tinkering
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That could be a great option for me and possibly OP as well if only it was...duel fuel.
Thread Title said:
OP said:
50ShadesOfDirt
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At this point, if everyone is in agreement that Sol-Ark wants less than 15%THD, and OP wants 240v, dual-fuel, Sol-Ark supported, and under $1k, then sure ... there are generators out there that fit this list.
Nobody can shop for someone else, but with just a little bit of plugging in of these 4 constraints above into google, at least one genny popped up that meets those constraints.
Nobody can shop for someone else, but with just a little bit of plugging in of these 4 constraints above into google, at least one genny popped up that meets those constraints.
Yeah it needs to be dual fuel or at least propane for me. For safety & storage reasons I am not interested gasoline only and I don't have natural gas as an option at any of my properties.
In one of my previous posts above I am pretty sure I documented multiple possible options that were gasoline only (which I am not interested in and the OP indicated he also was not looking for)...
I also posted a dual fuel 240V at =<5%THD generator that was pretty close (~$1,200 on sale) but that one got pushback as maybe not being good quality...
Which generator are you saying was =<$1,000 for dual fuel 240V at =<5%THD (or at least =<15%THD)?
Is it the same one I posted about previously?
Ozark Tinkering
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You shouldn't have any trouble understanding the fuel constraint. Everyone here including yourself uses propane rather than gasoline.
Ozark Tinkering
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I really do wish I could get more information on that unit because it would save me a load of cash, but as it stands it does make me nervous.
Yeah I share the nervousness and would only try it with precautions... Many of the bad reviews I read were focused on the both the weakness of the frame and the inadequacy of the packaging which worked together to result in many arriving damaged (or at least with bent frames).
The only way I would be willing to try it would to be to buy it on sale at Home Depot (or other local store with good return policy) and have it shipped to store and I would open it right there at the store and fully inspect it before bringing it home. If there were any damage I would refuse it and ask them to get a replacement.
I would also only do it were my Sol-Ark live and stable and ready for extensive testing with the generator (and my work schedule would allow me to focus on it) so that I could return within the normal return window it if it doesn't work.
The weak frame (assuming I can get one home that isn't bent/damaged) does not really concern me as I don't plan to man-handle nor move it much/often it as I hope to integrate it with a large propane tank and the Sol-Ark and thus essentially keep it stationary like a standby generator.
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Ozark Tinkering
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The only walkin store I found that carries it is Tractor Supply. There's one about 40 miles from here. Maybe I'll give them a call and see if Bob knows anything about them.
Thank you! Good idea!
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