Anyone have any experience in Solar DIY in New York State? I see bad things on the horizon....

stienman said:

I'm ok with the following:
1. A certificate of occupancy is required to use a building as a dwelling, to sell it, and to live in it.
2. A certificate of occupancy requires an electrical connection to the grid - with exceptions, such as the grid not already available at the dwelling, and/or cost of initial connection is prohibitive, with the exception being reviewed and approved by the governing authority - not the power company.
3. A certificate of occupancy requires inspections after major changes/upgrades to a building's electrical system - regardless of power source

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Philosophically, I disagree on all three of these counts. To me, these are all nanny-state intrusions on the very notion of private property ownership and personal responsibility and accountability. If I want to live off-grid, my power situation is mine and mine alone and affects nobody else. And if I want to sell it (edit: the property) in the future, a potential buyer should be able to buy it as-is, with the due diligence that goes along with personal accountability, to then use however he wants.

Me being off-grid on my own property affects literally nobody but me.

stienman said:

The transition to more and more personal solar is going to be messy, and we're going to have to deal with the fallout one way or another.

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Agreed. IMO we need to guide that fallout towards the side of individual liberty, rather than more government control.

Just a note - NYS just passed the "Proposal Number One - Clean Water, Clean Air, and Green Jobs Environmental Act of 2022" which according to the proposal is "200 million dollars to fund environmental protection, natural restoration, resiliency, and clean energy projects".
The local papers and radio stations have been telling people this will be used for wind turbine projects, in fact two of the county supervisors have stressed this will mailings to many residents. I guess the belief is that since the FedGov is doing the solar rebates, they will direct the monies towards wind projects.

zzrider said:

If I want to live off-grid, my power situation is mine and mine alone and affects nobody else.

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True and as far as I know, this is the current model we live under. It has been said or suggested that NYS charges off-grid users for their production but I have not found anything that proves that. As a matter of fact, I am 100% off grid in NYS and have never heard of such a thing. I suspect the person who said that either is confused about something else like a connection fee to the grid for those who buy little from the grid.

zzrider said:

And if I want to sell it in the future, a potential buyer should be able to buy it as-is, with the due diligence that goes along with personal accountability, to then use however he wants.

Me being off-grid on my own property affects literally nobody but me.

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Not so true. How do you intend to bring your electrons to your buyer?

Unless your buyer is your off-grid neighbor down the road and you run your own wires to his property, then you are missing something important here: you need the grid and the infrastructure to sell your power.

So you can't have both ways: you want to be off grid and isolated? Fine. But if you want to be in the market and sell your power then you'd have to comply with regulation.

It's just the way it is. The grid would simply not operate if anyone wanted to simply connect to the grid and sell any power at any moment of the day. It simply doesn't work like that. There is the powerline hosting capacity, there is assurance of the power quality, there is demand to be matched and the list goes on.

I would never even consider exporting to the grid. I am already "on grid", the next buyer can do the same. Just like I would never consider extending my wifi to cover the neighborhood.

Old_Skewler said:

True and as far as I know, this is the current model we live under. It has been said or suggested that NYS charges off-grid users for their production but I have not found anything that proves that. As a matter of fact, I am 100% off grid in NYS and have never heard of such a thing. I suspect the person who said that either is confused about something else like a connection fee to the grid for those who buy little from the grid.

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?
I'm in FL and although I've seen people on social media claim it's "illegal to be off grid in Florida", nobody making this claim has been able to cite any state or local ordinances establishing this. I've looked and I can find no such law.

My situation is, I'm going to need to get a CO for a new build on formerly vacant property with no electrical service run to it (and that I do not want).

Old_Skewler said:

Not so true. How do you intend to bring your electrons to your buyer?

Unless your buyer is your off-grid neighbor down the road and you run your own wires to his property, then you are missing something important here: you need the grid and the infrastructure to sell your power.

So you can't have both ways: you want to be off grid and isolated? Fine. But if you want to be in the market and sell your power then you'd have to comply with regulation.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear; I wasn't talking about selling my generated electricity. I want my property to have air-gap isolation from *everything*. I don't even want my inverter connected to the internet where a "service center" can mine my generation and usage data and potentially control or influence my equipment.

I was referring to hypothetically selling the entire property. In particular, I was addressing the reference to "certificates of occupancy" in general, which I personally think are an absurd, overbearing intrusion on the very concept of personal property ownership. I should not need the government's "permission" to live on land that I own and pay taxes on (that's a whole other conversation too ?).

zzrider said:

^^ This

"Public utilities" are for all intents and purposes, monopolistic corporatist extensions of an oligarchal government.

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Pretty much a necessity, since there's only one distribution network and one set of wires to your home. I lived in CA when they "deregulated" a couple decades ago, letting rogues like Enron run wild while bankrupting PG&E (and almost SCE) virtually overnight. But at least CA residents get to enjoy the highest rates in the nation!

I now live in TX, where "deregulation" kept rates low in part by rewarding generators who ignored winterization. So a cold snap came along and half our generation went down, causing tens of billions in property damages. Another big win for deregulation!

And don't forget those TX consumers who saved a few bucks with real-time pricing schemes. Nothing like a $23k electric bill being direct-withdrawn from your bank account one month. Should've read the fine print, chump! Caveat emptor!

Doggydogworld said:

Pretty much a necessity, since there's only one distribution network and one set of wires to your home. I lived in CA when they "deregulated" a couple decades ago, letting rogues like Enron run wild while bankrupting PG&E (and almost SCE) virtually overnight. But at least CA residents get to enjoy the highest rates in the nation!

I now live in TX, where "deregulation" kept rates low in part by rewarding generators who ignored winterization. So a cold snap came along and half our generation went down, causing tens of billions in property damages. Another big win for deregulation!

And don't forget those TX consumers who saved a few bucks with real-time pricing schemes. Nothing like a $23k electric bill being direct-withdrawn from your bank account one month. Should've read the fine print, chump! Caveat emptor!

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I live in Texas and lost power during that storm. got about 30 minutes of juice every 12 hours for a couple days. so we added a 12kw off grid system on top of the existing 11kw grid tie

I would vote for low rates vs winterizing for a 100 year storm anytime.

sick of the government trying to protect us from ourselves
no BB guns allowed either, you might shoot your eye out

tonyplane said:

One of the reasons I moved from SoCal to Tennessee where I had once been stationed with the 101st Airborne Div.
Before I retired, I called the Aeronautics Dept of the State of Tennessee and told them I was considering moving to Tn, buying a farm, and putting a runway on it for my airplane. I asked how people in Tn go about cutting a runway on their property to fly from and to land on. I expected a long involved "you must apply for, have inspected for, pay for, etc, etc, " The answer I received was "most people in Tennessee use a bulldozer." They explained it was my property to use as I wished, but if I were going to cut a runway near an existing airport, I should talk to them.

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Isn’t it crazy ?

I used a D9

I live in a Province in Canada where for decades I have been a commercial licensed builder & I can no longer “personally” build a house for myself. ?‍

RV8R said:

Isn’t it crazy ?

I used a D9

I live in a Province in Canada where for decades I have been a commercial licensed builder & I can no longer “personally” build a house for myself. ?‍

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Wow. Government run amok.

In Florida, I can pull an owner-builder permit to do *anything* building my own house. Still have to meet code & pass inspections of course (which is another separate conversation). Only restriction is, O-B can't turn around and sell it within a year.

Old_Skewler said:

Yes, because the utilities don't need oversight and they are interested in the common good and the best for the nation

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That’s hyperbole that obfuscates the point.
Electricity from grid or private solar without legislated props will sort itself out. The monopoly component of “the grid” when eliminated will result in businesses of any type creating an environment where costs are competing with other sectors yet they can still exist. This is an environment that stimulates ingenuity and competitiveness to create a better mousetrap.
Grid providers will have to make their electricity products make sense, and the solar market will have to become efficient to compete instead of relying on subsidy, fearmongering, rebates, and sell-back schemes to compete. Not that selling back would be unfavorable- that the rules don’t get changed along the way based on politics.

zzrider said:

is dangerously naive to think governments and quasi-government institutions (ie public utilities) won't use their power to control behavior.

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Right! The utilities want a holding pattern yet the government wants to end fossil fuels; electricity from solar is doable, but the market for both grid and home solar is controlled by subsidy and politics.

Don’t get me wrong: I understand government action to encourage industry creates jobs, and I’m fine with that. But as a permanent situation or as an end to political goals it is wrong.

As demonstrated quite well in New Hampshire where business is taxed quite heavily, but there is otherwise favorable conditions for business to locate there, government oversight is part of the equation but it doesn’t have to be suppressive to citizens. Even ‘taxachussetts’ has positives to observe. But government intervention is another story and it is morally wrong to make that the status quo. Government isn’t the solution to the problem; government is the problem.

12VoltInstalls said:

That’s hyperbole that obfuscates the point.
Electricity from grid or private solar without legislated props will sort itself out. The monopoly component of “the grid” when eliminated will result in businesses of any type creating an environment where costs are competing with other sectors yet they can still exist. This is an environment that stimulates ingenuity and competitiveness to create a better mousetrap.
Grid providers will have to make their electricity products make sense, and the solar market will have to become efficient to compete instead of relying on subsidy, fearmongering, rebates, and sell-back schemes to compete. Not that selling back would be unfavorable- that the rules don’t get changed along the way based on politics.

Right! The utilities want a holding pattern yet the government wants to end fossil fuels; electricity from solar is doable, but the market for both grid and home solar is controlled by subsidy and politics.

Don’t get me wrong: I understand government action to encourage industry creates jobs, and I’m fine with that. But as a permanent situation or as an end to political goals it is wrong.

As demonstrated quite well in New Hampshire where business is taxed quite heavily, but there is otherwise favorable conditions for business to locate there, government oversight is part of the equation but it doesn’t have to be suppressive to citizens. Even ‘taxachussetts’ has positives to observe. But government intervention is another story and it is morally wrong to make that the status quo. Government isn’t the solution to the problem; government is the problem.

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Here Here,,,

My Province (Heavily Taxed)

My Province “Is” the electrical utility company ,,, BC Hydro

My Province, taxes huge oil & gas (which is produced the next Province over) & subsidies “electric cars”

The older I get, the more I see the governments of the world as our problems.

They change the rules once ya “buy into something” & it does not create a “trusting” environment. Same everywhere I suppose.

Oh my gosh - my thread has exploded with so much information and insight that I'm happy I joined this forum. But my fundamental reason for joining is to gain some insight into DIY particularly in New York. It just seems like this is not feasible. In my county (Westchester) you need to be, or to hire, a licensed contractor to even touch your house Even the homeowner cannot work on their house unless they are a licensed contractor themselves. I actually got a copy of the laws governing this and found that the county departments are misinterpreting the law - the spirit of the law was to ensure that if you hired someone to work on your home, that person must be licensed. But the bureaucrats in town offices have adopted an unreasonable and incorrect interpretation that that means the homeowner as well. I hired an attorney for awhile who agreed with me and we considered suing "Town Hall". Well, you know what they say about that.

I have a degree in Computer Science and a minor in Electrical Engineering - but no contractor's license

Has anyone battled this kind of issue in New York?

Hogheavenfarm said:

Just a note - NYS just passed the "Proposal Number One - Clean Water, Clean Air, and Green Jobs Environmental Act of 2022" which according to the proposal is "200 million dollars to fund environmental protection, natural restoration, resiliency, and clean energy projects".
The local papers and radio stations have been telling people this will be used for wind turbine projects, in fact two of the county supervisors have stressed this will mailings to many residents. I guess the belief is that since the FedGov is doing the solar rebates, they will direct the monies towards wind projects.

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You don’t believe that will do anything meaningful, do you? Typical pork project. NY is a hopeless state.

Yes, Westchester and Putnam are bad, and it is spreading north and west quickly. Good luck, seriously. My mother lives in Putnam, cannot even change a window without licensed people. Need a DEC permit to haul firewood. Crazy place.

TheMadNucleus said:

Oh my gosh - my thread has exploded with so much information and insight that I'm happy I joined this forum. But my fundamental reason for joining is to gain some insight into DIY particularly in New York. It just seems like this is not feasible. In my county (Westchester) you need to be, or to hire, a licensed contractor to even touch your house Even the homeowner cannot work on their house unless they are a licensed contractor themselves. I actually got a copy of the laws governing this and found that the county departments are misinterpreting the law - the spirit of the law was to ensure that if you hired someone to work on your home, that person must be licensed. But the bureaucrats in town offices have adopted an unreasonable and incorrect interpretation that that means the homeowner as well. I hired an attorney for awhile who agreed with me and we considered suing "Town Hall". Well, you know what they say about that.

I have a degree in Computer Science and a minor in Electrical Engineering - but no contractor's license

Has anyone battled this kind of issue in New York?

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You are “Literally“ ,,, “Fighting City Hall” ?

New Hobby?

zzrider said:

In Florida, I can pull an owner-builder permit to do *anything* building my own house. Still have to meet code & pass inspections of course (which is another separate conversation). Only restriction is, O-B can't turn around and sell it within a year.

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Exactly what I am doing.

RV8R - nope - Sadly. dropped that hobby

"Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts." Einstein

I was about to suggest getting a contractor's license, but it looks like they are pretty stingy with those. New York is a heck of a nanney state.

I'm working on a solar system for my barn and went to pull the permit. Permit lady goes and gets the electrical inspector who happens to be there to tell me that I can't pull the permit, as it's solar I have to have a licensed electrical contractor pull the permit. Fortunately I have a very cooperative electrician (most of the time he tells me he's busy, won't be able to get to me for weeks, and I can do it myself, call him if I have questions). I talk to him and he says he doesn't have any solar experience but he's game. A few days later I'm talking to him on another project (with me doing it and him providing a little advise) and he tells me he remembered that one of the guys he mentored several years ago is doing solar, so he's going to get him involved so we can both learn.

It's good have friends.

teal95 said:

I'm working on a solar system for my barn and went to pull the permit. Permit lady goes and gets the electrical inspector who happens to be there to tell me that I can't pull the permit, as it's solar I have to have a licensed electrical contractor pull the permit. Fortunately I have a very cooperative electrician (most of the time he tells me he's busy, won't be able to get to me for weeks, and I can do it myself, call him if I have questions). I talk to him and he says he doesn't have any solar experience but he's game. A few days later I'm talking to him on another project (with me doing it and him providing a little advise) and he tells me he remembered that one of the guys he mentored several years ago is doing solar, so he's going to get him involved so we can both learn.

It's good have friends.

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I'm a retired electrician and never ever came close to a solar system till I did my own. That said let him know a first year apprentice in his first month on the job can handle all the wiring of the solar panels. If he knows how to wire a motor VFD then he can wire the inverter. If he knows how to wire a 240 circuit, then he can make the connection to the service panel.

Folks selling solar want you to think it's all very technical work but hardest 3 parts for me where: 1 not falling off the roof, 2 finding the roof joists/trusses to anchor the mounting rails, and 3 lifting the panels up to the roof.