The shocking cost of Electricity

@svetz

Yeah, I've been watching that all unfold myself, scarry. The problem is that their customers are actually their feedstock who they have corned by a lack of the competition that PG&E fears. The wealthy use wealth to protect their wealth, as well as massive corporate entities like PG&E. I have a friend up in Weaverville. CA, and he's trying to get out of California because of this crap.

It's not just commercial businesses doing it either.

A conservative (which you would find confusingly called the Liberal Party) in one of the southern states of Australia slashed the electricity network maintenance budget. The result was that a SWER line didn't receive the maintenance it should have and in a particularly hot summer the line sagged beyond the correct limits allowing it to swing quite a bit, and make contact with trees that hadn't been trimmed back also as a result of that budget cut. Massive and terrible fires ensued. Conservative opposition party in Queensland is trying to wedge that exact same condition upon Queenslanders right now.

@gnubie
Greed is a global issue, so is our power. That is until, and as svetz mentioned, we have better battery technology.

PG&E was sued for a bajillion dollars over starting the Camp Fire. This is their way of giving the finger to those suing/blaming them. You think it's our fault wind blew the lines down and started a fire? Ok, we will turn off the power when the wind blows. It's a childish and dangerous reaction to public sentiment. That's pretty much the definition of California though.

Schlagger said:

I heard on a podcast the other day that California is going to start taxing the watts that solar users input to the grid. Insane. This is one of the reasons I went all off grid-I dont want the government taking what I already paid sales tax on after I purchased it with taxed dollars. Is it 1984?

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Maybe some wires got crossed. This sounded too crazy so I googled "california tax on solar sold to utility" and this is what I found:
"California passes law that prevents cities from taxing energy generated by solar rooftop projects"
The exact opposite of taxing solar. So there are a lot of podcasters out there that are much crazier than the government, and they have a strong incentive to be that way because crazy sells -- just look at Alex Jones.

downshifter said:

Maybe some wires got crossed. This sounded too crazy so I googled "california tax on solar sold to utility" and this is what I found:
"California passes law that prevents cities from taxing energy generated by solar rooftop projects"

California passes law that prevents cities from taxing energy generated by solar rooftop projects

California Governor Gavin Newsom signed into law last week financial protections for consumer investments in rooftop solar energy. The law, AB 1208

www.solarpowerworldonline.com

The exact opposite of taxing solar. So there are a lot of podcasters out there that are much crazier than the government, and they have a strong incentive to be that way because crazy sells -- just look at Alex Jones.

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Dang! Now that was a fresh breeze of common sense! Kudos!

Sadly, the same governor that used a healthy dose of common sense for that is taking a lot of heat for PG&E; it might be the end of his career.

Here in Florida, the utility has helicopters that survey the power lines before the start of hurricane season every year. They're painted black, whisper silent, and abduct people. Only kidding, although a lot of people worry about them as they occasionally hover in place for while..

I understand PG&E has years of neglect to overcome. But......

There are so many hikers, off-roaders, and drone enthusiasts in California, you'd think that since it's a crisis someone would band them together with maps on a web site so that people could coordinate efforts on low-risk days (don't want volunteers getting caught in wild fires) to survey for where trees are close to power lines. They could take photos tagged with GPS coordinates. Sure, thousands of miles of high power lines, but a few thousand people could do it in a day. Sort of a "take back your utility" movement. And if there are no trees near power lines, send those PG&E execs to jail.

Excerpt from the NY Times:

Wind turbines, solar panels and electric vehicles spread far more quickly last year than many predictions, but not fast enough to get global warming under control.
That’s one conclusion in an annual report released on Tuesday by the International Energy Agency, which warned that current policies could cause greenhouse gas emissions to continue rising for the next 20 years. Here are some of the main takeaways.

The details: The report predicted that renewable energy would surpass coal as the world’s dominant source of electricity by 2030.

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There's a lot of concern over what happens in Africa, a lot of folks are concerned about what will happen with global warming if emerging nations go towards conventional coal fired power plants.

Does it make sense for any emerging location to use coal anymore when solar is a cheaper way of producing power? The problem of course is in the cost of storing it when the sun isn't out. Battery technology needs a change to reduce the $/kWh. Still, it's a lower cost entry point and battery costs are offset not only by power generations but in that they can be a localized resource eliminating the need for transmission lines and their maintenance. Still, it takes a strong company to have a modular/expandable solution ready to go for it to be viable.

svetz said:

This landmark study concludes it was energy prices. What a load of rubbish, if it was energy costs we'd all being paying more. China is one of the cheapest countries for power and they import coal.

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I collectively refer to this as slutbagonomics. It can be seen in trading markets (e.g., S&P 500 intra-day), politics and highly regulated markets.

In Ohio they introduced competition. I believe in competition. It works; but only if you get rid of the regulated part. What happened is they continued to charge a regulated portion for the utility provider, and a separate charge for the free market supplier you chose. Initially, IIRC, the utility charge was small and reasonable.

I broke down my electric bill for the past 12 months. The supplier side is 45%, and the utility side is 55%. Unlike my gas bill where I use very little in the summer, my electric bill is high all year as I have a lot of computers on 24/7. (87% higher than my neighbors)

There is nothing explaining how the utility side is calculated. However, in trying to understand solar payback, I discovered that it is highly correlated with usage, just like the supplier side.

This meant two things:

- while knocking down my supplier side from 5.5 to 4.6 cents per KWH sounded like a big win initially, it wasn't really when I realized I'm still paying 13 cents per KWH total.
- The payback for solar is calculated using 13 cents, not 4.6 cents. This is good to know as I invest in off-grid solar.

The problem with regulated utilities is their profits go up when their expenses go up. You might say, "yeah, but they need to get approval to increase expenses?" From you or I? No. Rather, from someone who's profits go up when they approve increases in expenses, of course. Politics + capitalism combined = Crony Capitalism, one form of slutbagonomics.

You see it in Russia under Putin. You see it in China under the CPC. You see it in the USA. You see it EVERYWHERE politicians and lawyers (often the same) roam the planet.

svetz said:

I'm sure ready to vote cajun in 2018!

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You plan on fixing a recount?

When one considers energy production, storage, & consumption the entire environmental impact and production costs must be weighed.

1. The exploration needed to find deposits of raw materials.
2. The acquiring of mining/drilling rights for those raw materials.
3. The actual mining/recovery of those materials.
4. That includes oil & its discovery & recovery.
5. The fuel needed to power the refinement of all the materials used in the entire manufacturing, warehousing, transporting, marketing, & installation of a solar system.
6. The waste stream generated from all this activity.
7. The result is a not that flexible energy delivery system limited by the randomness of weather leading to insufficient production sometimes coupled with excess production potential with no additional place to store it resulting in waste.

Nuclear & natural gas have their own issues as well but they are more easily modulated to meet the varying demands of the grid.

The Tesla, Volt, Spark, Prius, etc are marketed as "clean vehicles" but they actually rely on nuclear, fossil, & hydro generated power to keep them charged, with a few rare exceptions.

If He wills it, one day, likely well beyond my years discoveries will be made that will revolutionize energy production & delivery, then solar will look like the Edison bulb.

Actually your incorrect on the actual cost of being a Griddling.
1) Cost of Generated Power per Kw.
2) Cost of Delivery / Delivery Charges
3) Extra Debt retirement fees / expenses from long standing costs (nuclear plants etc) Only applies in some areas
4) The TAXES paid on the Power Used & the Delivery Charges (that adds up too !)
5) Annual Connection Fees (some power co's do this) which often apply to non-permanent residences / seasonal's like cottages etc.
* Some places will even levy a tax on you IF you have panels on your home, just because they are there !

Once you have all your gear installed & running and can go off-grid, ALL those expenses are folded back against your system cost... That includes all the taxes, fees and whatever else that get's heaped on. While it may not seem "huge" on a monthly bill, over 12 months it's a lot more than many imagined.

Steve_S said:

Actually your incorrect on the actual cost of being a Griddling.
1) Cost of Generated Power per Kw.
2) Cost of Delivery / Delivery Charges
3) Extra Debt retirement fees / expenses from long standing costs (nuclear plants etc) Only applies in some areas
4) The TAXES paid on the Power Used & the Delivery Charges (that adds up too !)
5) Annual Connection Fees (some power co's do this) which often apply to non-permanent residences / seasonal's like cottages etc.
* Some places will even levy a tax on you IF you have panels on your home, just because they are there !

Once you have all your gear installed & running and can go off-grid, ALL those expenses are folded back against your system cost... That includes all the taxes, fees and whatever else that get's heaped on. While it may not seem "huge" on a monthly bill, over 12 months it's a lot more than many imagined.

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Sorry I was not that clear. I was referring to solar in general, primarily as a grid supplier. Agreed those monetary costs become mitigated & eventually erased with individual systems of sufficient capacity.
I see this current process as the leading edge of discovery & exploration vs fully developed solution.

@SCClockDr We are here because we love DIY. DIY is not an acronym for hoping to accomplish anything meaningful in the context of slutbagonomics. It is a means to try to create a little man cave to escape crony capitalism and other means to justify higher taxes and utility passed regulatory fees.

DIY works because it is lower cost on one part of the equation (the lack of cronies to pay), despite not having economies of scale.

I concur with you @erik.calco. Then sometimes a Steve Jobs figure emerges from the DIY'rs. I'm a firm subscriber to the process of self discovery & sharing of the DIY world.

SCClockDr said:

I concur with you @erik.calco. Then sometimes a Steve Jobs figure emerges from the DIY'rs. I'm a firm subscriber to the process of self discovery & sharing of the DIY world.

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I think you meant to say Steve Wozniak. He was the DIY'er at Apple.

erik.calco said:

I think you meant to say Steve Wozniak. He was the DIY'er at Apple.

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Yup, Woz was the engineer...the hands on guy....Jobs was the salesman.

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet

SCClockDr said:

When one considers energy production, storage, & consumption the entire environmental impact and production costs must be weighed.

1. The exploration needed to find deposits of raw materials.
2. The acquiring of mining/drilling rights for those raw materials.
3. The actual mining/recovery of those materials.
4. That includes oil & its discovery & recovery.
5. The fuel needed to power the refinement of all the materials used in the entire manufacturing, warehousing, transporting, marketing, & installation of a solar system.
6. The waste stream generated from all this activity.
7. The result is a not that flexible energy delivery system limited by the randomness of weather leading to insufficient production sometimes coupled with excess production potential with no additional place to store it resulting in waste.

Nuclear & natural gas have their own issues as well but they are more easily modulated to meet the varying demands of the grid.

The Tesla, Volt, Spark, Prius, etc are marketed as "clean vehicles" but they actually rely on nuclear, fossil, & hydro generated power to keep them charged, with a few rare exceptions.

If He wills it, one day, likely well beyond my years discoveries will be made that will revolutionize energy production & delivery, then solar will look like the Edison bulb.

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Whose "he"?

offgriddle said:

Whose "he"?

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Mine?

offgriddle said:

Whose "he"?

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Correction :
Whose Who's He?

Please note the capitalization!
Edited: Corrected quoted grammar/ word selection.

SCClockDr said:

Correction :
Whose He?

Please note the capitalization!

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Another correction could be Who’s or Who is... I mean, either he is asking who He is, or he is asking who He belongs to... his sentence structure is confusing...

Supervstech said:

Another correction could be Who’s or Who is... I mean, either he is asking who He is, or he is asking who He belongs to... his sentence structure is confusing...

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I'll specify, a capitalized He refers to G O D!
"If He (God) wills it..."

SCClockDr said:

I'll specify, a capitalized He refers to G O D!
"If He (God) wills it..."

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Oh, I totally understood your statement, I was ribbing offgriddle’s question...