Full Electric Drive Conversion of Tri-Axle Coach 21700 or prismatic? Battery cycle Testers..?

sunsurfer said:

I commend your effort. I think reusing things is great.

If you realy want to make a difference, learn the science and educate others that have been brain washed. You see, most people are driven by their emotions and don't actually check the facts that are offered to them.

Example; We are told CO2 is going to destroy the planet.

Fact 1 - if CO2 levels gets below 180-200ppm plants start to die, then we all die.

Fact 2 - Perfect level is around 1400ppm. Plants thrive at the sweet spot. We are around 425ish

Fact 3 - CO2 is only a fraction of a percentage of the air, how can it affect us that much? Insulation works both directions

Fact 4 - The sun controls our temperature, not our use of buses.

If you feel your brain fighting these facts, that is normal. The mind has a hard time letting go of beliefs.

So if you really want to help the planet, keep the petro power plant in the bus and just make sure it runs clean though an electric bus probably uses the same amount of the "deadly" CO2 from further down the line.

Facts, - get some.

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I see electric vehicles a a good thing, I do see that there are some skewed numbers, I also see more carbon as more plant life ability on the surface.

yet again you come in thinking you “know” everything about my thought process.

This is not about the carbon foot print (solely) clean air without smog would be nice, but being self sufficient, off grid, no capitalistic parasites drawing off of me “fuel to move” debt (interest) ect. I won’t go all the way into it.
I have seen that we as a species are over consuming and causing damage to this planet. Not Carbon foot print but human foot print.
I have chosen to reduce my life size to lessen my impact.

Why would I choose to do a home build in a diesel powered bus… when I’m planing to live there for the rest of my life?… I’m early 30’s here…
do you think diesel will be readily available in 2060? If so what cost would it be to travel… it’s $2 a litre here now, that’s $1600 refill every time… imagine 2060..
Why not do the switch now, we all know we are being somewhat forced to do it.

So once again another “agent smith” enters to tell me I’m brainwashed…
When my motives are 100% not what he assumes…

The only good thing about move away from dinosaur juice is that we have become aware of our impact… for the first time…

OffGridForGood said:

I will admit, at the beginning my first thought was - "this doner is too heavy" this idea came from following many of the ICE-EV car conversions from another forum. They go so far as to list many basic doners by 'stripped-weight' chasis less engine-transmission-gas tank, as a starting point and guide for those looking for a suitable doner ICE car. However, since following all your posts, it appears you have made a series of selections and know full well the consequences of the doner you have chosen, are prepared for the work and have a suitable budget planned, clearly not going in blindly. Like myself, I am sure many comments came from others based on similar experiences, we certainly see many well intentioned but less capable dream projects posted by some who (unlike you) are have not thought it through and do not have the budget. So, All good, I am interested to see the build, and to learn what you have in mind for the cell BMS sounds interesting.

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Appreciate the feedback.
Yes I did consider the weight of the vehicle. As with motor home conversions, people run into trouble with GVM weight restrictions.
The electric motor will be the same peak torque as the diesel and will have 160kw higher peak output.
I do have a fair amount of budget to go into this but I don’t want to hit the ceiling. A lot of problem solving has been going into the build to avoid really costly parts. I was quoted a MPPT charger, capable of step up step down to 1000v output dc 30kw at $15k Aud. Around $7500usd.

Freight-liner quoted me a direct drive motor that they are putting into their trucks too but was 150kg heavier and about $8k more and would need to be sea freight. Quite a few more big vehicles are becoming EV and the new tech for batteries has just made it possible.

Nobodybusiness said:

I guess you could run a Hybrid bus?
Maybe keep fuel tank and run a 4 cylinder diesel directly connected to generator?
Like an locomotive.

It makes my brain itch trying to figure out how to power that monstrous bus.

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There is a guy on youtube building semi trucks under the name "Edison motors", where they have a big CAT diesel generator and E-axles, that way they still take advantage of regenerative breaking and all the other benefits of an EV. The generator only needs to be big enough to meet the average load of going down the road, and a generator running at a fixed speed (peak fuel efficiency) is way better than an engine ramping up/down between gears, plus the added benefit of the instant torque of the electric motors. Pretty cool.

In lieu of the 12v bank idea -may I recommend to go with a REC BMS or Orion BMS

This thread makes me sad. Predictably, here’s an idea, that idea has some problems, you have no vision.

Hope it works out. More technical detail, less defensiveness would be great.

Reminds me of folks who get an old boat to restore. Then abandon the project 5 years in, discouraged, old, and financially exhausted.

A full meal deal plan before purchasing stuff might be a good idea.

AkivaAld said:

I see electric vehicles a a good thing, I do see that there are some skewed numbers, I also see more carbon as more plant life ability on the surface.

yet again you come in thinking you “know” everything about my thought process.

This is not about the carbon foot print (solely) clean air without smog would be nice, but being self sufficient, off grid, no capitalistic parasites drawing off of me “fuel to move” debt (interest) ect. I won’t go all the way into it.
I have seen that we as a species are over consuming and causing damage to this planet. Not Carbon foot print but human foot print.
I have chosen to reduce my life size to lessen my impact.

Why would I choose to do a home build in a diesel powered bus… when I’m planing to live there for the rest of my life?… I’m early 30’s here…
do you think diesel will be readily available in 2060? If so what cost would it be to travel… it’s $2 a litre here now, that’s $1600 refill every time… imagine 2060..
Why not do the switch now, we all know we are being somewhat forced to do it.

So once again another “agent smith” enters to tell me I’m brainwashed…
When my motives are 100% not what he assumes…

The only good thing about move away from dinosaur juice is that we have become aware of our impact… for the first time…

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You mentioned "giving a shit about the planet" so I can only assume;

Save the planet + electric vehicle = fear about CO2

"I have seen that we as a species are over consuming and causing damage to this planet. Not Carbon foot print but human foot print"

If that is not brainwashed, I don't know what is. Sorry, I can't help you and the fear you live in.

Petrolium DOES NOT COME FROM DINOs. Again...brainwashed.......smell the fear OP

sunsurfer said:

Now consider what is really bad for this planet and you are doing better than most.

We have been distracted with chasing a ghost. Mean while, for example; herbicides and insecticides have been ignored. The point is, everyone is out chasing the CO2 boogie man while other issues get ignored. Environmentalist have been fooled in a big way.

Thats my point.

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Yeah we can see this, we are not all dumb. So much bad shit was happening, for me this is my exit.
Off grid mobile home, start a business with ethics, shared profits 0 risk model.
We can only do so much in a life, but telling people on diy Solar forums about it does nothing.
See the source of the problem, don’t fight it, create something next to it so logical that others just step across.

This bus is only the beginning of my journey to building something new.

Bluedog225 said:

This thread makes me sad. Predictably, here’s an idea, that idea has some problems, you have no vision.

Hope it works out. More technical detail, less defensiveness would be great.

Reminds me of folks who get an old boat to restore. Then abandon the project 5 years in, discouraged, old, and financially exhausted.

A full meal deal plan before purchasing stuff might be a good idea.

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That’s what I am doing! Cad drawings and costings and such.
If people didn’t project what others have done in the past at me. Like you just did and you actually had a question I wouldn’t be making pointless responses…

There use to be an old saying "pipe dream"

Stay off the pipe folks

sunsurfer said:

You mentioned "giving a shit about the planet" so I can only assume;

Save the planet + electric vehicle = fear about CO2

"I have seen that we as a species are over consuming and causing damage to this planet. Not Carbon foot print but human foot print"

If that is not brainwashed, I don't know what is. Sorry, I can't help you and the fear you live in.

Petrolium DOES NOT COME FROM DINOs. Again...brainwashed.......smell the fear OP

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Do you believe infinite growth is possible on a finite planet? That human population can continue forever…
That’s madness,
In the time I’ve had a house I’ve seen so much land around me get bulldozed into cookie cutter houses. A never ending Fibonacci sequence for a species is not a good outcome..

Just look at the cities they are not getting smaller, require more food, buying more pointless things they never needed. Slaves in debt, so some asshole can have a 20 million dollar boat.

But it’s easier to point the finger at others than to realise you are the problem… that you need to change.

You don’t have to be a scientist to realise what happens if we don’t change.

Reduce consumption is my choice to respect those who come after me, to leave them with material things to explore and work with.

I said nothing about saving anything…
Thank you agent smith

Bluedog225 said:

More technical detail, less defensiveness would be great.

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Exactly. Lots of waaahhh getting into this thread

AkivaAld said:

Do you believe infinite growth is possible on a finite planet? That human population can continue forever…
That’s madness,
In the time I’ve had a house I’ve seen so much land around me get bulldozed into cookie cutter houses. A never ending Fibonacci sequence for a species is not a good outcome..

Just look at the cities they are not getting smaller, require more food, buying more pointless things they never needed. Slaves in debt, so some asshole can have a 20 million dollar boat.

But it’s easier to point the finger at others than to realise you are the problem… that you need to change.

You don’t have to be a scientist to realise what happens if we don’t change.

Reduce consumption is my choice to respect those who come after me, to leave them with material things to explore and work with.

I said nothing about saving anything…
Thank you agent smith

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Dude....
Back to the bus...
"Diy Solar Forum"
Not "Save the world from every blight forum"

Ok. Talk about your idea. So far, it has serious problems.

AkivaAld said:

Not to mention if you don’t have access to the full bms, you only end up with heaps of modules you can’t buy a balancer for…

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False. You can find modules for sale to use/control the OEM BMS, charger, dc/dc. Simply search for Tesla battery controller for example.

I don’t need water cooled cells… cause I’m not a moron and won’t ever need to draw that amount of power out of the packs.
It’s only wankers that think they are smart that build stupid thinks like that, that cause problems and stupid legislations.

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You are right. But OEM are not morons, they have to build battery for extreme weather like -30°C to + 50°C because their cars will be used at those temperature. Not to mention that fast charge who also imply termal managment.
I drove the first thousands km's of my Vanabolt conversion without cooling in my Chevrolet Bolt battery and it don't do anything wrong. Temperature stay only few °C over ambien temperature, but only because I don't fastcharge and because it was not freezing or extremly hot.

There is nothing complex about building a battery.

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Exact, in theory.
And it's there we can see that you don't have the experience to distinguish the difference between a working battery and a reliably working battery.
Almost anyone can build a battery with a bit a knowledge, but build a safe and reliable battery who will work flawless for years/thousand km's is another thing.

AkivaAld said:

Do you believe infinite growth is possible on a finite planet? That human population can continue forever…
That’s madness,
In the time I’ve had a house I’ve seen so much land around me get bulldozed into cookie cutter houses. A never ending Fibonacci sequence for a species is not a good outcome..

Just look at the cities they are not getting smaller, require more food, buying more pointless things they never needed. Slaves in debt, so some asshole can have a 20 million dollar boat.

But it’s easier to point the finger at others than to realise you are the problem… that you need to change.

You don’t have to be a scientist to realise what happens if we don’t change.

Reduce consumption is my choice to respect those who come after me, to leave them with material things to explore and work with.

I said nothing about saving anything…
Thank you agent smith

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Many people will flock to the 15 minute cities siting much of what you just said. They have been prepared for it with brain washing all these years. Fear and pulling at heart strings. Feel, don't think, is the way forward with the system. All programmed from the school systems and TV/internet.

They will not let you keep your freedom wagon you are building. It's not fair that you can have so much privilege while other don't.

You might enjoy the SV Seeker you tube stuff. Guy went on a similar journey with a big, big diy boat. Despite all the folks telling him not to, and all the mistakes, he got her on the water.

You mentioned controlling the battery contractor with something like fancy relay logic? Can you delve deeper into that? Will the 12v batteries have MOSFET based BMS's? Will you have communication with these BMSs to see cell voltages, temps, other stats on all 99 batteries at once?

As already mentioned, you could use something like an Orion BMS to have a centralized BMS. You could also do a distributed BMS, there are many options, one is Batrium K9.

The only commercial EV (that I am aware of) to use multiple 12v batteries in series was the now defunct Smith Electric.

We have engineers from Smith working for our company and designing our battery. Are you surprised to hear they did not choose 12v modules? They never even entertained the idea.

Also, how much cost will the 32 bus bars and 196 cables from each 12v battery to the bus bars add to the project?

yabert said:

False. You can find modules for sale to use/control the OEM BMS, charger, dc/dc. Simply search for Tesla battery controller for example.

You are right. But OEM are not morons, they have to build battery for extreme weather like -30°C to + 50°C because their cars will be used at those temperature. Not to mention that fast charge who also imply termal managment.
I drove the first thousands km's of my Vanabolt conversion without cooling in my Chevrolet Bolt battery and it don't do anything wrong. Temperature stay only few °C over ambien temperature, but only because I don't fastcharge and because it was not freezing or extremly hot.

Exact, in theory.
And it's there we can see that you don't have the experience to distinguish the difference between a working battery and a reliably working battery.
Almost anyone can build a battery with a bit a knowledge, but build a safe and reliable battery who will work flawless for years/thousand km's is another thing.

Click to expand...

Yes, most OEM do build for worst case scenario. But this is also because of parts selection like overkill motors with small batteries. And high C draws. I am certainly not planning on doing that with sizing he modules to the vehicle to avoid excessive systems. (Water cooling/heating)

I’m certainly open to new insights, it is defiantly not possible to by recovered Tesla or ev modules and create a 400kwh+ battery pack under 100k.

Honestly the technology leap in 6 months is incredible. As the battery management system I started to research around 1 year to 6 months ago. There was basically no options available for the size system I was planning. Now it seems there are several options that will have enough balancing current for the packs at a reasonable price. With CanBus connectivity. Which is awesome!

When there is no solution we start to design and build our own solution. Thus DIY, the solution new solution found is capable of the requirements and honestly I don’t feel I need to proceed with the design of the MOSFET based logic board.

As for the DIY solution we have access to excellent modern design software to test functionality and avoid white smoke. Or battery failure, Hence the requirement to learn fusion 360 Eagle to run simulations and ensure safety of the circuitry.

Share with me if you know of a Mppt solar charger that can support 750v +… that is something that I feel will be available in the near future due to direct solar dc/dc charging demand, currently there is no such technology.

Can I build a solar mppt dc/dc charger capable of that… No I can not nor would attempt that with what I know.

Can I build a simple logic mosfet based BMS system to link a few 12v modules together… yep absolutely, having said that with other solutions available I will be reviewing the battery arrangement. 12v modules are now most likely best solution, but with what was available 12-6 months ago it was the only solution that could be found

400bird said:

You mentioned controlling the battery contractor with something like fancy relay logic? Can you delve deeper into that? Will the 12v batteries have MOSFET based BMS's? Will you have communication with these BMSs to see cell voltages, temps, other stats on all 99 batteries at once?

As already mentioned, you could use something like an Orion BMS to have a centralized BMS. You could also do a distributed BMS, there are many options, one is Batrium K9.

The only commercial EV (that I am aware of) to use multiple 12v batteries in series was the now defunct Smith Electric.

We have engineers from Smith working for our company and designing our battery. Are you surprised to hear they did not choose 12v modules? They never even entertained the idea.

Also, how much cost will the 32 bus bars and 196 cables from each 12v battery to the bus bars add to the project?

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Yes I see I see, I had previously only seen a very sketchy looking Chinese option of these style BMS at ridiculous pricing and didn’t cover the balance current required for cell deviations.

At 12-6months ago when I was searching for solutions, there was nothing I could find. Hence the DIY solution, it just shows how quick the technology has shifted! Really impressive to be honest.
I will certainly be considering a higher series string voltage. Per module.

I also just came across a solution with CanBus connectivity. This will defiantly fit in with the Dash selection and onboard Can components.

This is very much in design phase, once the drawings of the battery module start things will get locked in a bit more to final design. Motor combo has been selected so this gives requirements for the battery.

Appreciate the sharing of sone available products, some of these don’t meet spec for balance current required. Cheers

Have you decided on a voltage?
What's the voltage range for your motor?
What controller are you going to use?
Sorry if this information was already posted.

Bluedog225 said:

You might enjoy the SV Seeker you tube stuff. Guy went on a similar journey with a big, big diy boat. Despite all the folks telling him not to, and all the mistakes, he got her on the water.

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Thanks for posting that. Im watching the vids of it now. Cool !

timselectric said:

Have you decided on a voltage?
What's the voltage range for your motor?
What controller are you going to use?
Sorry if this information was already posted.

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Hey Tim, I have selected a beyondmotors MV with a rating of 400kw peak for 30 seconds. 230kw continuous. 1000nm peak
motor will be matched and configured inhouse to a DTI controller.
750v is the rated 400kw.
MV was chosen due to the requirement of a second controller for the LV option.

Max controller voltage of 800v so battery will need to comply with that..

timselectric said:

Have you decided on a voltage?
What's the voltage range for your motor?
What controller are you going to use?
Sorry if this information was already posted.

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Costing in screenshot
Comes to $22876 Aud matched.

Had a quote from cascadian motion for the IM-425 that came in at $36,000 aud same voltage.
Same peak KW, at same 750v 200kg vs AXM4 at 56kg.

IM-425 is 2620nm so way more torque peak. It’s what’s going in the new freight liners… owned by BorgWarner

AkivaAld,

My hats off to you for sticking around this thread. Never fails to get an idea and everyone sees the problems with it. Has happened to me many times. I posted on 4 different forums my plans for building a gas turbine to make power using an automotive turbo charger and running it on wood. I got epic bad feed back on that one.

Still, the negative responses have merit and good value. Just got to keep forging ahead. Good luck with your build. Be open and give thought to all input.

sunsurfer said:

my plans for building a gas turbine to make power using an automotive turbo charger and running it on wood.

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Did you build it?

AkivaAld said:

Share with me if you know of a Mppt solar charger that can support 750v +… that is something that I feel will be available in the near future due to direct solar dc/dc charging demand, currently there is no such technology.

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I think this is less likely to become a commercial reality due to regulations. On the PV input side, residential in the US is limited to 600 v
There are also battery voltage limits.

Most of the charge controller market is residential/mobile (not 1500 volt commercial) this means most manufacturers will be targeting a PV limit of 600 volts or whatever your local regulations allow.

There aren't many reasons (outside of an EV) to have a battery voltage in the 750 volt range. Even 230/240 vac has a peak to peak voltage of 370 volts(?) So that would be the upper end of any useful battery voltage with our going up to utility scale, where they will likely operate well above 750 volts.