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“Normal” self-discharge rate

Sverige

A Brit in Sweden
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What’s a normal rate at which LiFePO4 cell voltage settles, fresh off charge? I have four cells which were charged to a 3.6V cutoff, and within a few hours they‘ve settled to 3.37V and still slowly declining. Is this normal, or excessive self-discharge? They’re prismatic 100Ah cells.

One cell is worse than the others and took just 90 mins or so to get down to 3.37, so I’m pretty sure that one has a problem, I’m just wondering whether the others are also unusually fast declining, or whether this is to be expected?
 

After about 90 minutes, those were 3.36.

Outliers are either bad or good. You have to establish which. :)
 

After about 90 minutes, those were 3.36.

Outliers are either bad or good. You have to establish which. :)
Thanks @snoobler, good info (y) I’ll be doing a discharge test tomorrow, after which I’ll know more about my cells.
 
The spread depends on the time. Three cells are almost identical and the fourth drops in voltage much quicker, but then the voltages converge again as all the cells get to the flatter part of the curve. So it’s a moveable feast.
 
Did you measure internal resistance? Higher internal resistance causes voltage to increase higher for a given charge current. Removal of that charge current results in something of a "spring back" where the cell pulls away from the peak voltage faster.

It could also be nothing. :)
 
Did you measure internal resistance? Higher internal resistance causes voltage to increase higher for a given charge current. Removal of that charge current results in something of a "spring back" where the cell pulls away from the peak voltage faster.

It could also be nothing. :)
I charged with a Junsi/Hill RC icharger 3010b, which tapers the charge current down to around 300mA before terminating, so the voltage excess which comes with higher currents is negated (as is volt drop thru the charging leads).

The icharger internal resistance measurement function is showing me around 10mOhms per cell, but I don’t consider it a reliable measurement. Apart from anything else, it’s very dependant on length of charging cables. The cells have handwritten Chinese labels showing 0.45mOhm, but I don’t trust that much either.
 
Data I charted was from an icharger 206B clone. IIRC, the 3010b is a 1000W unit? If so, I have a handful of those clones as well. :) I can use regenerative charging to the tune of about 4000W :)

Connection quality is critical. If you're using the alligator clips, they're crap. I have ring terminals, and I secure with bolts. The 4mm lantern style bullet connectors are turds too. I replace those with the beefy flared type, AND I zip tie them to pinch them together to keep moderate tension on the connectors in an effort to improve contact.

With a good connection, while the IR measurement isn't particularly accurate, it's very consistent and has value as a comparison.

Standard charge is termination at 10% of start current. The fast charge mode is 20%. Depending on the cells you have, I wouldn't hesitate to push it to as high as 0.5C. If you can't get to 0.5C, the fast charge may terminate at a more realistic current (0.05C standard for most cells).
 
Yes, it’s the 1000W unit. Junsi sent it to me as a test sample when the unit first launched as we had been in touch throughout the development of the ichargers. Not just me - I’m claiming no credit for the product - he was very engaged with the RC community via rcgroups.com and lots of folks were giving good feedback.

It wasn’t long before the clones emerged and the return on the time & money Junsi had invested must’ve taken a hit, and then he disappeared from the RCG forum thread.

You’re right, the cell IR readings can be used for comparisons, but won’t give you accurate absolute readings. The only meter I ever had that would do so was a Wayne Giles ESR meter, but that was the prototype and only on loan from Wayne, so I don’t have it now.

What software do you use to display your icharger log files? I haven’t been able to get Logview working recently, despite using it often many years ago.
 
Thanks, I’ll try it. I also think I’ve discovered why I was having issues - I downloaded from logview.net (wrong logview!) instead of logview.info (correct software!). I’ll try the right Logview and the one you’ve mentioned.
 
I’ve started my discharge test, using an inverter and a slow cooker as load for around 190W and 16-17A drawn from the 4S 100Ah pack. Should take around 6 hours I suppose.

My icharger 3010b in LiFe monitor mode will alert me when the first cell gets to 3.00 and after that I’ll watch them until I decide to terminate, probably around 2.8. If my iPhone co-operates, I’m attempting to film a timelapse for evidence, should it become a paypal claim. Also hoping to get the log file out of the icharger.
 
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I think the knee for charging is about 3.358-3.365 so I would expect voltage to decline to around that.

These batteries are really solid though, my 48 are taking 2-3 watts to maintain 3.4v, which includes the bms, balancer and watt meter power.
 
I’ve started my discharge test, using an inverter and a slow cooker as load for around 190W and 16-17A drawn from the 4S 100Ah pack. Should take around 6 hours I suppose.

My icharger 3010b in LiFe monitor mode will alert me when the first cell gets to 3.00 and after that I’ll watch them until I decide to terminate, probably around 2.8. If my iPhone co-operates, I’m attempting to film a timelapse for evidence, should it become a paypal claim. Also hoping to get the log file out of the icharger.

FYI, if you want to demonstrate capacity rating, you need to cut-off at 2.5V.
 
FYI, if you want to demonstrate capacity rating, you need to cut-off at 2.5V.
Thanks - I ran the test yesterday and having reached 99Ah with the cells only just beginning to breach the 3.00V level and still in balance to within 0.01V, I was satisfied they would reach the advertised 100Ah with some in reserve, so stopped the test as I have no intention of shortening their life by putting a deep discharge cycle on my brand new cells.

The test was just to satisfy me that all cells were at least 100Ah, rather than to measure their full capacity. The icharger in LiFe monitor mode was a great help and started beeping away once I got to 3.00V. Later I’ll try to get the log files off it - something I haven’t done in 10 years or more!
 
Fears of 2.5V discharges for testing purposes are unfounded. I'm cycling those cheap Miady LFP batteries that Will just reviewed at its max rated charge and discharge currents, and there's no sign that they're in decline after 11 cycles. They are rated that way for a reason. Even discharge testing lead-acid to 0% isn't going to do measurable damage
 
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Fears of 2.5V discharges for testing purposes are unfounded. I'm cycling those cheap Miady LFP batteries that Will just reviewed at its max rated charge and discharge currents, and there's no sign that they're in decline after 11 cycles. They are rated that way for a reason. Even discharge testing lead-acid to 0% isn't going to do measurable damage
Ok. How do you know that a discharge to 2.5V has no long term effect on the cell? You could surely only establish that with a long term (4000 cycle?) comparative test of cells discharged to 2.5V vs those never discharged below 2.9V (for example).
 
Ok. How do you know that a discharge to 2.5V has no long term effect on the cell? You could surely only establish that with a long term (4000 cycle?) comparative test of cells discharged to 2.5V vs those never discharged below 2.9V (for example).
That's not how it works. For example, if you discharge to 2.5 volts you lose one cycle. From then on if you use 80% capacity of your cells you would still have 4000 cycles left. You still end up with 80% capacity left in your cells at the end of 4000 cycles, give or take a cycle. No big deal... :)
 
Ok. How do you know that a discharge to 2.5V has no long term effect on the cell? You could surely only establish that with a long term (4000 cycle?) comparative test of cells discharged to 2.5V vs those never discharged below 2.9V (for example).

Every cycle, partial or full, has a long-term impact on cycle life. My point is that if you're trying to establish actual performance, you need to test per the cell spec.

In addition to Gazoo's comments. LFP discharge floor USED to be 2.0V standard, and some cell manufacturers retain it. It was raised to 2.5V for improved cycle life and the fact that there was little capacity below 2.5V.

The real danger is in overcharge. It actually damages things.

I also personally have 76 CALB 40Ah cells that were installed in a Gen 2 Prius Plug-in-hybrid system (aftermarket). These were abused in this application for 2.5 years in the Phoenix area with no cooling system. The system was removed from the car and placed into storage. All cells discharged to 0.6V over a long period of time and were held there for months (owner neglected them). The monitoring board on each cell continued to draw microamps from the batteries until they were more than completely discharged. After fully charging them, they all tested to between 60 and 75% rated capacity. What was interesting is that these 76 cells test almost identical to the 5 or so loose cells that had been stored without a board on them and had 3.30V. These cells were used "spare" cells sent by the system builder.

I recently re-tested 10 of them after a year in storage. Before storage they were fully charged. After a year, they retained 97% of the prior charge, and repeat capacity tests were the same as a year prior.

Again, fears of discharge to 2.5V are unfounded. Yes. You will lose one of your 2000+ cycles when this happens. It also helps to remember that ever single cycle of any kind reduces cycle life/capacity, and at the end of it's cycle life, it will still have 80% of its capacity remaining and still be perfectly usable.
 
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Thanks for your replies @Gazoo and @snoobler. You’ll think me pigheaded perhaps, but as I know from my own experience with LiFePO4 cells since 2008, deep discharge does hurt the cell in terms of capacity and cycle life. Not prismatics in that case, but A123 26650 cells. The example you quote @snoobler of cells which were run nearly flat and had only 60-75% capacity afterwards supports my point of view, so I’m not sure why you cite it as justification that a 2.5V discharge has no negative effect.

I asked the question because I was interested to see whether there was any evidence to support your claim, and in the nicest possible way, I haven’t seen any yet. Your point @snoobler may have been that to establish true performance you have to test as per the spec sheet parameters, and that’s entirely correct, but I had already made clear in the post you replied to, that is not what I was aiming to do!

These cells are brand new to me and I will molly coddle them as best I can and avoid discharging them below a level I’m comfortable with. I appreciate your input, and I realise you’re trying to help, but I think we have differing opinions on this one.
 
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