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“Normal” self-discharge rate

You missed that the cells that discharged to 0.6V are indistinguishable from the 5 loose cells that were stored at 3.3V (were never discharged to 0.6V). They all have similar capacity ranges and resistances. In other words:

76 cells discharged to 0.6V test 24-30 out of 40Ah.
5 cells never discharged to 0.6V and stored at 3.30V during the same period the 76 were discharged to 0.6V test 24-30 out of 40Ah.

These CALB cells were degraded by operating in 50°C+ temperatures with no cooling PRIOR to storage. It's why the company went out of business - bad design.
 
Theoretically this is what the manufacturers do
Thanks for your replies @Gazoo and @snoobler. You’ll think me pigheaded perhaps, but as I know from my own experience with LiFePO4 cells since 2008, deep discharge does hurt the cell in terms of capacity and cycle life.
I think you are somewhat missing what @snoobler and @Gazoo are trying to convey.
I believe the point both are tying to make is not that no loss of capacity will occur, but that capacity loss over time discharging to 2.5 is within the parameters that the manufacturer considers normal/acceptable. I.E. the cycle life count on the datasheet (2.5k loose, 3.5k with compression) is based on discharging to 2.5. So by saying you are not 'harming' your cells discharging that deep it is not to say you are not shortening their life, but that it is within acceptable (to the manufacturer) parameters and isn't causing substantial or significant harm if done occasionally. This can be true, while at the same time your point can also be true (a higher LVD / tighter charge-discharge bandwidth) will increase the cycle life of the cells). They do not contradict each other necessarily. I suppose to some degree it comes down to how you define 'damage'

I believe the only point that either are trying to make is that the occasional deep discharge won't significantly and immediately damage the cells and that manufacturer cycle life claims are (often but not always) based on full 2.5-3.65 cycles.

Some caveats and points to ponder:
- The EVE datasheet seems to extrapolate cycle life from ~600 test cycles, I am neither a chemist or statistician so can't say how representative this is of the full cycle life.
- Calendar aging and temperature are wildcards that may greatly affect cycle life, and neither are properly reflected by manufacturer test conditions.
- There is a decent bit of variance in claimed cycle life as well as test conditions manufacturer to manufacturer, EVE is at the moderately optimistic end (0.5C/1C 3500 cycles), CALB is at the far conservative end (0.3C, 2000 cycles)
- I don't have a ton of trust in the cycle life estimates of some manufacturers. Both because I'm not sure how accurately test conditions mirror reality and because I think some push the spec's knowing it will be years before they can be verified (This is just my perspective)
- Like everything else in the datasheet, it applies to grade A cells that passed QA and are deemed fit for sale and warranty to important customers, none of us buying on the grey market know for sure why our cells are discounted, or what condition led to them failing QA. In many cases it might just be slightly lower capacity, or some other semi-benign cause. On the other hand, could their be some underlying weakness or other issue with a batch or model of cells, that leads to it being sold at a discount (quite possibly in my opinion). Therefore, even if the cycle life numbers are accurate, it seems to me that it is not a given that non-A-grade cells will definitely perform identically (particularly in cases where IR is the reason for not passing QA, or where there is some mechanical or chemical defect. I fully acknowledge this last point is highly speculative, and possibly unfounded.

Especially with that last point in mind (but still true even if you ignore the last point), I think I think your position:
These cells are brand new to me and I will molly coddle them as best I can and avoid discharging them below a level I’m comfortable with. I appreciate your input, and I realise you’re trying to help
Is totally reasonable and prudent if you want to get the most out of your cells. But I also think that a few test cycles down to 2.5V won't make a difference in the big picture. But based on the goal you articulated, I think you are right that a full test is not necessary for your situation.
 
You missed that the cells that discharged to 0.6V are indistinguishable from the 5 loose cells that were stored at 3.3V (were never discharged to 0.6V). They all have similar capacity ranges and resistances. In other words:

76 cells discharged to 0.6V test 24-30 out of 40Ah.
5 cells never discharged to 0.6V and stored at 3.30V during the same period the 76 were discharged to 0.6V test 24-30 out of 40Ah.

These CALB cells were degraded by operating in 50°C+ temperatures with no cooling PRIOR to storage. It's why the company went out of business - bad design.
I did miss that detail, but I’m not sure how much you can infer from a comparison with 5 cells which may have previously been deep discharged without your knowledge, as unless you’ve owned them from new you can’t fully know their history.

Also, perhaps in their original application as EV battery packs the cells were drained to a level which had already taken its toll on their capacity or longevity, and the subsequent deep drain of some cells to 0.6V did no additional damage. It could have been 2.5V, 2.3, 2.0... we don’t know... It’s all guesswork and none of it proves anything at all to back up your statement that taking new cells to 2.5V does no damage vs keeping them at a higher level.

With very little capacity between 2.9V and 2.5V, I’ll be using the higher cutoff point.
 
Theoretically this is what the manufacturers do

I think you are somewhat missing what @snoobler and @Gazoo are trying to convey.
I believe the point both are tying to make is not that no loss of capacity will occur, but that capacity loss over time discharging to 2.5 is within the parameters that the manufacturer considers normal/acceptable. I.E. the cycle life count on the datasheet (2.5k loose, 3.5k with compression) is based on discharging to 2.5. So by saying you are not 'harming' your cells discharging that deep it is not to say you are not shortening their life, but that it is within acceptable (to the manufacturer) parameters and isn't causing substantial or significant harm if done occasionally. This can be true, while at the same time your point can also be true (a higher LVD / tighter charge-discharge bandwidth) will increase the cycle life of the cells). They do not contradict each other necessarily. I suppose to some degree it comes down to how you define 'damage'

I believe the only point that either are trying to make is that the occasional deep discharge won't significantly and immediately damage the cells and that manufacturer cycle life claims are (often but not always) based on full 2.5-3.65 cycles.

Some caveats and points to ponder:
- The EVE datasheet seems to extrapolate cycle life from ~600 test cycles, I am neither a chemist or statistician so can't say how representative this is of the full cycle life.
- Calendar aging and temperature are wildcards that may greatly affect cycle life, and neither are properly reflected by manufacturer test conditions.
- There is a decent bit of variance in claimed cycle life as well as test conditions manufacturer to manufacturer, EVE is at the moderately optimistic end (0.5C/1C 3500 cycles), CALB is at the far conservative end (0.3C, 2000 cycles)
- I don't have a ton of trust in the cycle life estimates of some manufacturers. Both because I'm not sure how accurately test conditions mirror reality and because I think some push the spec's knowing it will be years before they can be verified (This is just my perspective)
- Like everything else in the datasheet, it applies to grade A cells that passed QA and are deemed fit for sale and warranty to important customers, none of us buying on the grey market know for sure why our cells are discounted, or what condition led to them failing QA. In many cases it might just be slightly lower capacity, or some other semi-benign cause. On the other hand, could their be some underlying weakness or other issue with a batch or model of cells, that leads to it being sold at a discount (quite possibly in my opinion). Therefore, even if the cycle life numbers are accurate, it seems to me that it is not a given that non-A-grade cells will definitely perform identically (particularly in cases where IR is the reason for not passing QA, or where there is some mechanical or chemical defect. I fully acknowledge this last point is highly speculative, and possibly unfounded.

Especially with that last point in mind (but still true even if you ignore the last point), I think I think your position:

Is totally reasonable and prudent if you want to get the most out of your cells. But I also think that a few test cycles down to 2.5V won't make a difference in the big picture. But based on the goal you articulated, I think you are right that a full test is not necessary for your situation.
I did miss that point, if that was the point they wanted to make. Your explanation makes perfect sense, and supports my existing view. Thanks @Dzl
 
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The deep discharge was done by the cell monitors while in storage. The 5 loose cells were never deep discharged.

The nature of the Gen2 operation does not permit the cells to be deeply discharged ever. By the time they've dropped to about 2.75V, the pack can no longer provided sufficient voltage, and the car is running in normal hybrid mode with the piggyback battery idle.
 
I did miss that point, if that was the point they wanted to make. Your explanation makes perfect sense, and supports my existing view. Thanks @Dzl
Discharging to 2.5 volts will not do any damage to the cell. If that were the case the manufacturers would include it in their spec sheets. Failure to do so and they would go out of business.

A full charge to 3.65 volts and discharge to 2.5 volts will not do any damage to the cell and that is considered a full cycle by all the manufacturers of Lifepo4 cells. In all the spec sheets I have read the cells have at least a 2000 cycle life before they reach 80% capacity. That means charging to 3.65 volts then discharging to 2.5 volts 2000 times. Where is the damage? And don't think the manufacturers cant's test this. Most are testing at 1C rates. If you are so sure discharging to 2.5 volts will damage the cells then you either are not comprehending the spec sheets, or don't believe what is written in them.

I don't mean to come across as snarky or anything. On the other hand I find your view as misleading. Sorry.
 
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