diy solar

diy solar

Adding storage to my Enphase system

I searched for the sensata device when I first started looking to add DC coupled solar. I believe it was discontinued years ago and is long out of stock.

I'd love to understand how it works and why Arc fault presents so many false trips (I too have read lots about that). But, 60db below switcher harmonics goes outside of my knowledge.

At this point it looks the options would be a $500 Schneider MPPT plus $500 arc fault and RSD units. Prices have probably gone up, those are from memory and older.

Or go with a different brand MPPT that has integrated arc fault, $700?
 
I searched for the sensata device when I first started looking to add DC coupled solar. I believe it was discontinued years ago and is long out of stock.

I'd love to understand how it works and why Arc fault presents so many false trips (I too have read lots about that). But, 60db below switcher harmonics goes outside of my knowledge.

At this point it looks the options would be a $500 Schneider MPPT plus $500 arc fault and RSD units. Prices have probably gone up, those are from memory and older.

Or go with a different brand MPPT that has integrated arc fault, $700?
Replying to myself ?

The Schneider MPPT is $550 and the Arc fault RSD is $685
So, Schneider equipment would be $1235

A different vendor would have arc fault integrated into a roughly $700 MPPT, but it would not have RSD control integrated, the Tigo unit is $190 for the dual channel version (same as Schneider)

That puts my math that $1235 for Schneider vs $890 for a competitor with integrated arc fault.

$345 difference is slightly easier than the $500+ extra the Schneider equipment was going to cost me. It could have been cheeper had I made a decision a year ago.
 
When was this updated?
When I looked at the Schneider RSD system a few months ago, I don't remember it having the arc fault detection. The manual is dated Oct. 2019 When I have been searching for "solar arc fault" devices, this never came up in the search. Odd.

With the amount I am looking to spend, an extra 300 to have it integrated into the Schneider network is not too bad. I like the Midnight solar MPPT units, and they will also work with the Tigo RSD boxes, so the total cost ends up very close. I'll try to price it all out and see where it comes out.

As for the solar panels, I am still torn on larger used panels, more smaller used panels, good priced new old stock panels, or just get new more efficient panels and not need as many.
 
You had me worried that I remembered incorrectly. I haven't looked into the disconnect manuals recently, but the main description does include AFD.

If you go with new panels I believe they are eligible for the tax write off. Used panels are not.

Screenshot_20220204-213234~2.png
 
You were certainly right about the Arc fault detection in the Schneider RSD. I can't believe I missed it before.

To be able to get the tax credit, I think I would be opening the door for my whole system to be inspected, and the Bolt batteries are a big red flag. A 26% discount would sure be nice, but I would probably have to get a UL listed LFP battery for the inspection. Even a 5 KWH unit becomes a huge expense. That UL stamp ads a big price tag. I really don't have the option of putting my battery bank far enough from the house like you did.
 
You can buy an older model GT PV inverter with arc-fault built in. AC couple that to your battery inverter.
But you wanted DC coupling, correct? And if you were to reassign any existing panels to DC, they're probably also in a location needing arc fault.
Nevermind.

Inspection, insmection. Don't think the IRS gives a hoot. That's not written into whatever law congress passed. Local permit office didn't grease their palms.
 
Inspection, insmection. Don't think the IRS gives a hoot.
I'd agree with that.
In 2019, when I submitted for my 30%, that was permitted and all. But, no where in there did have to include permits or inspection certs.
Local permitting and PGE don't have access to my tax return.

I'm currently sitting on a stack of receipts from adding the Schneider. I'm claiming that this year for sure (minus the used battery)
But, that was permitted too, so not exactly the same as your situation.

If/when I do add some DC charging, I'm hopeful the tax credit is still going.
 
Occasionally, the local tax authorities will request your return.
When my wife had a co-signer removed from title during refinance, we had to prove the other party had no financial involvement, only put ink on paper but nothing else.
What I gave them was heavily "redacted".
 
In one of my news feeds, I received an update about the Chevy Bolt battery fire investigation. This seems to be good news for those of us using the Chevy Bolt battery modules for solar storage.
Great thread! It got my attention because I also have an Enphase system using the IQ7s and want to develop an off-grid system that incorporates my Enphase system whenever I'm switched over So what you're doing is of great interest to me. Having just stumbled upon your thread yesterday, it's obviously long after the fact of the Bolt recall and it took some reading to catch up to where you became aware of the fire hazard.
Then I started a reply before looking to see where else the Bolt battery might be being discussed and found this thread you started that is more on that subject...
 
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Almost ready to let the smoke out!
- All equipment installed
- DC cabling complete
- Xanbus & Battery temperature sensors complete
- AC load panel wired

Now to attempt the PDU AC wiring, what a wad’o spaghetti…….
schneiderupgradefeb52022.jpg
 
Wow, there's a lot more in the full siz PDP. I've just got the mini version and it's empty by comparison.

Edit: Also, I thought the SCP was designed to install into the XW? In place of the standard display? That might help and clean up some wiring for you if true.
 
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GXMnow, I put a link to this elsewhere on the forum, but I wanted you to see it.
If this is the right version of the WattNode, buying this one at half price covers another $150 of the extra expense of the Schneider RDS/arc fault.

 
It is alive!
Screen Shot 2022-02-06 at 18.02.48.png
The only drama was me missing the page describing connecting the “AC Sync cable”.
Gave a fault, until I connected the cable…

schneider_upgradecompletefeb62022.jpg
 
Very nice! Congrats

The pressing question, does it start your AC now?

I thought the MPPT was shorter and didn't match up with height of the XW + power distribution panel. Was this panel a separate component?
schneider_upgradecompletefeb62022~2.jpg

Also, do you have a DC disconnect or any Arc Fault detection?
 
The heat pump start test will be soon, but I also am installing a Micro-air EasyStart Soft Starter on the compressor, even if it starts w/o.
I have been waiting for good weather, hope later in the month it will warm up.

The MPPT is stock, looks like it was designed to be the same length as the rest of the equipment.
The big PDU came w/ two DC breakers.
I had to find a DC breaker for the MPPT.

dc_breakers.jpg
It was not easy, the Schneider MPPT install docs only list breakers for the smaller CC, do not have any info on the 100A unit I have.
As usual, none of the Schneider dealers had any idea of which breaker was available for the MPPT 100-600, but I found a p/n on a Schneider page and Google did the rest.

Unless arc fault is somehow built in to any of this equipment @ the factory, no I don’t have any.
There is a 1000v fuse in the MPPT, that is all.
Off-grid, not sure I need arc fault?
 
Arc Fault Detection is required by NEC code when PV voltage is over something like 80 VDC.

I can't say if that applies to your off-grid set up, but probably. That doesn't mean I am telling you to add it, I'm just hunting for solutions that cost less than $700

How's the performance with 2 inverters so far?
Are they splitting the load evenly?
 
Well that was interesting....

Less than a minute before midnight, my XW-Pro was still running most of the house load, but not exporting. Battery bank is at 53 volts, just 0.5 volt above where it would normally go to standby. It seems we took a short power drop from the grid. But it was not seamless. It caused 2 PC to reboot as well as the Dish Network system. And the lights on the backup also went out and back on. So much for the 8 millisecond transfer, it was more like a full second. I have no idea how long the power was actually out, but it seems like it was just a quick glitch.

When I got to the garage, the XW was in the 5 minute countdown, and the grid was back up right away. Once my PC was back up, I took a look and the log does show Error id 39 "AI Under Voltage" Grid voltage too low. Once the 5 minute timer ran out, it was back to running my essential loads off of battery again. It's odd that the transfer was so slow this time. Guess I will still end up replacing my 2 failed PC UPS boxes.

I started a bill of materials and prices for the DC solar addition. If I buy it all new from Alt E Store, 8 440 watt panels, 4 tigo 2 panel RSD boxes, The Schneider MPPT 150/60 and the MPPT RSD arc fault controller totaled up to about $3,600 USD. Too bad I did not have my document saved when the power glitch happened, I will have to make it up again. It is a bit more than I had wanted to spend, but it is also more power than my original target. I have to measure and see if I can fit 8 of the larger 72 cell panels. Still pondering using 2 panels to make the awning on the east side of the house for morning sun. Alt E has better prices on the gear than Real Goods, but Real Goods has free shipping on the Schneider and Tigo parts, but not the solar panels. But the panel shipping is cheaper from Real Goods than Alt E also. I'm still shopping. The $700 for the Arc Fault and RSD is steep, but really not much worse than any other UL approved arc fault system I have been able to find. San Tan had a few really good choices for new panels, but they only had 2 of one type, 1 of another, and 5 of another. The ones they did have 8 of were only a small savings over new from Real Goods, and only had a 1 year warranty though San Tan. So, not really worth the small savings. The surplus place in Santa Paula still has not replied to my e-mail. I think they want to sell the whole lot of 300+ solar panels in one chunk. My question about hand picking my group probably made them laugh.
 
Well that was interesting....

Less than a minute before midnight, my XW-Pro was still running most of the house load, but not exporting. Battery bank is at 53 volts, just 0.5 volt above where it would normally go to standby. It seems we took a short power drop from the grid. But it was not seamless. It caused 2 PC to reboot as well as the Dish Network system. And the lights on the backup also went out and back on. So much for the 8 millisecond transfer, it was more like a full second. I have no idea how long the power was actually out, but it seems like it was just a quick glitch.

This paper regarding Sunny Island describes "high impedance" and "low impedance" grid failures, and reports switchover time of zero to 35 ms depending on inverter model and type of grid failure.


I would think only opening a switch on input of inverter would be "high impedance". Opening circuit anywhere further upstream, whether main breaker or primary of a transformer feeding multiple houses, would have those loads pull the grid down.

What it doesn't describe is how they tested with source drifting out of voltage/frequency spec. In that case, loads still have power and inverter could instantly replace them as it disconnects. Maybe even during a zero crossing?

If source is yanked to zero, it apparently watches for a cycle or two before picking up the load.

This document lists various power line disturbances, and measures classes of equipment expected to have different immunity.
It looks like riding through 20 ms (one line cycle 50/60 Hz) of dropout to 0% voltage and 10 (12 at 60 Hz) cycles to 40% voltage is class 2 requirement.

There is also a 5 second (300 cycle) dropout. Device isn't expected to operate through, but to survive. What it could do is drain any capacitors, but not reset thermal inrush protection. When power suddenly reconnects, there is a surge to recharge capacitors. Not mentioned is if reconnection was not at zero crossing, but rather a contact connecting at peak line voltage.



We think of capacitors in power supplies as carrying them through dropouts. That would depend on how much capacitance and how much voltage headroom, since capacitors have to change in voltage to deliver current. A linear supply would have moderate headroom. A switcher for universal 100 ... 240V operation could have more storage when used at higher input voltage, capacitors sized at least to carry specified output during dead time between cycles at 100V, so at least roughly 6 half-cycles with 240V.


And then, there are glitches that crash electronics by an upsetting signal.
Both transients and brief brownout/dropout are conditions electronics is supposed to be tested for. In the case of a PC with variable power consumption, if put in a state of higher consumption would it would drain supply capacitors faster. Wonder if anybody sets that up on purpose for certification testing? I recall the test for zero volt dropouts was a number of cycles, so 35 ms, 2 cycles, shouldn't be enough to power off.


Switchers typically have bridge rectifier into a capacitor at the front end. Instead of UPS, how well would it work to add capacitance, have AC input go through a rectifier into a large capacitor when then feeds DC into the AC power cord of the computer? Idea would be to have much greater power storage, keep it running a couple seconds until inverter takes over. (When charging a capacitor from grid, should have a soft-start mechanism such as thermistor.)
 
Thanks for that Hedges. It got me thinking, and I have an idea what happened. Maybe another home on the same 120/240 final transformer as my house had a major short circuit? It could have dragged the voltage low until their main breaker tripped. It certainly made ever light in my my bounce bad, but the grid was back very quick, so no feed to my house actually quit.

Another odd thing, I got up to check on the system, and it is charging. Why is it charging? It normally just sits and waits until someone tells it to charge. I checked the graphs and logs, and it went into bulk charge at 2:52 AM. I was asleep. My son never touches it. Maybe my girlfriend woke up and thought it was morning and clicked on the forced charge? I have her do it for me when I am out of town. Battery voltage was at 52.5, where it normally does stop supplying power out. But recharge volts is 52 even, so it does not start on it's own. And the time was odd, not matching any of my block start or stop times. Just odd. At least it has been charging on the lowest rate grid time, and the solar will be exporting fully, so it will basically break even, but my consumption curve is going to be way out from normal today.
 
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