AGS - Auto Generator Start Information Thread

[jimf909]

AGS - Auto Generator Start Information Thread
The intent of this thread is to collect and share information to improve understanding of AGS systems, capabilities and limitations. This post will provide a starting point with the hope that others add, improve and correct any posted information. Hopefully this will help fill a need for accurate and helpful information on AGS.

Generators - meh
Fuel powered generators are seen by many to be everything from gross to just plain unnecessary. This is demonstrated by the relatively low traffic in the Fuel Backup Generator forum and also by Will’s hilarious (as in very fun to watch) disdain of a gas generator (see 02:54) when he had to buy one in order to test a battery charger. However, for some of us generators are part of our system and AGS vastly simplifies their use.

AGS: What is it?
AGS (Auto Generator Start) is a useful feature that provides the benefit of starting and stopping a generator automatically based on any number of conditions such as battery voltage, battery SOC, current draw, ambient temp, generator exercise, low oil level, over/under rpm, etc.

AGS: Why is it needed?

• For many (most?) folks here AGS isn’t needed. It seems the majority of solar systems are grid-tied and are being built with plenty of solar and battery capacity to run several days w/out grid support. Also, many off-grid folks are located in places where solar irradiance is consistent enough to minimize or eliminate the need for a backup generator. Running a generator for these folks will be infrequent enough that the AGS is not a big benefit.
• AGS is needed or helpful where a generator is often required to keep the batteries charged when solar yield isn’t adequate. Factors here can be: older solar systems where panels were undersized due to cost; locations with inconsistent or reduced solar irradiance; systems where humans won’t be available to manually start the generator, etc.

AGS may be helpful in the yellow or green parts of the map (and sometimes even in orange and red portions).
https://globalsolaratlas.info/map


AGS: Basic System Requirements

• Generator:
  • Gasoline or propane generator with electric start and auto choke (the auto choke can be DIY to adapt a non-auto choke generator to AGS)​
  • Diesel generator with relays to warm the glow plugs/intake air heater, run the fuel pump, etc. (this will be triggered in the correct sequence by the AGS)​
• AGS Trigger: A configurable component that allows the user to set conditions when the generator will start and stop. Components that sometimes have configurable AGS triggers include:
  • Inverter/charger
  • System aggregator like a Victron Cerbo or Outback Mate, etc.
  • Battery monitor
  • Sometimes the AGS module itself
• AGS Trigger Types: Typically the AGS trigger is a simple dry-contact that opens or closes a circuit. That's it! All that expensive inverter/charger, etc. does is close or open a switch to trigger the AGS module. Other triggers include a 12 volt signal, e.g. Outback inverters. The AGS module will take the signal from the open or closed circuit (or the 12v signal) to begin a sequence of events that starts or stops the generator. This is where the magic starts to happen.
• AGS module: The AGS module takes the simple signal from the AGS Trigger to replicate the steps typically initiated by a human to start or stop the generator. With the exception of standby generators, many (most?) generators sold in the US do not come with an AGS module. I’ve seen some generators advertised in AUS with AGS preinstalled and some as options in the US but for the most part assume this is an added part to the system. They coast roughly $250 - $500 USD with opportunities to spend more.
• DIY AGS 'module': Assorted relays, timed relays, etc. can be combined to create a DIY AGS system at a lower cost than products available on the market. I hope to include links to well documented solutions in one of the posts below.

Example: AGS In Action
Components: Victron Cerbo GX (system aggregator) | Atkinson GSCM-P (AGS module) | Westinghouse Wgen7500DF (generator)

• The Cerbo allows the user to set a number of start/stop conditions such as SOC, batt voltage, battery current, inverter temp, generator exercise, etc.
• When a start condition is met the Cerbo closes a dry contact that activates the Atkinson AGS (Atkinson calls it a GSCM – generator start control module). The Atkinson AGS is programmed and wired to: a) close the on/off switch on the generator (this turns the generator on), wait a few seconds and then b) close the start/stop switch on the generator which starts the generator.
• If the Atkinson AGS senses an AC signal from the generator it will do nothing until the Cerbo opens the dry contact at which point it will close the start/stop switch (turn the generator motor off) and open the on/off switch on the generator (turn the generator off) and then go into standby mode.
• If the Atkinson AGS does not sense AC coming from the generator it will assume the generator is not running and will attempt three start sequences. (The Atkinson decision matrix and sequences are explained in great detail in the manual.)
• An approximate wiring diagram is shown below.

 

[jimf909]

AGS Module Sources

Atkinson Electronics – Service oriented with wiring schematics for hundreds of generators. After I placed an order they called to correct it based on my needs.
https://atkinsonelectronics.com/generator/
350 pages of Atkinson wiring diagrams for specific generator/inverter combos:
https://atkinsonelectronics.com/content/product_pdfs/All Hookup Diagrams Merged.pdf

Cummins-Onan RV AGS – Onan specific
https://www.cummins.com/generators/rv-generators/wireless-rv-auto-generator-start-system

DCAutogen - AGS, choke servos to automate generators with manual chokes. Based in Cyprus.

DC Generators | Generator Controllers Smart Automatic Start

Smartest generator controllers on the market. Start your generator from any location around the world!

dcautogen.com

Deep Sea Electronics (DSE) – Robust and able to handle the most complex generator start/stop needs, including diesels. Pre-heats glow plugs, triggers fuel pump, monitors oil pressure, starter battery voltage, etc. Marine based so assume that they’re reliable and expensive.
https://www.deepseaelectronics.com/genset

DynaGen - DynaGen engine and generator controllers are built to automatically start, monitor and protect industrial equipment.

DynaGen™

Look to Cattron for reliable Dynagen engine control and generator control products.

www.cattron.com

Generator Line – When I called they were 100% focused on Honda. Like Atkinson, they appear to be service oriented: they promptly answered the phone and provide thorough and helpful responses to specific questions.
https://generator-line.com/two-wire-remotes/

Magnum - The Magnum AGS is compatible with most major generators, including Onan, Powertech, Generac, Westerbeke, Kohler, EPS, Northern Lights, and most portable generators with electric start.
https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/automatic-generator-start-module

 

[jimf909]

AGS Ready Generator Sources
To be populated with non-standby generators that are AGS ready, i.e. they will take a dry contact signal from an inverter, etc. and self-start.

Please post to this thread with known units and I'll add them here.

 

[jimf909]

DIY AGS Solutions - Reserved for links to posts that provide DIY AGS solutions:

• DIY auto-choke
• DIY AGS via relays, etc.
• DuroMAX XP9000iH using the 8 pin ATS socket and Atkinson AGS module
• Champion 8.5 two-wire auto-start mod
• Hyundai Electric Start Generator for Remote Start

 

[jimf909]

Assorted Resources, Notes and Appendices

Victron's AGS Overview
https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...rt-stop/Automatic_Generator_start_stop-en.pdf
Outback's AGS overview
https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/advanced_generator_start.pdf



Generators: Definition of Some Types of Generators
Any number of taxonomies can be used to group generators (fuel type, inverter/non-inverter, portability, etc.). Below are notes on one common grouping: Prime, Continuous, Standby and sometimes Backup

Prime and Continuous Duty: technically two groups but they’re grouped here for simplicity; often diesel ranging from single-digit kW output to ginormous outputs. These generators can run 24/7 with an expected life in the tens of thousands of hours at ~500 hour maintenance intervals. This example of a 10kW Perkins Continuous Duty generator is rated for 30K hours of use and would potentially serve an off-grid install for decades. Still, the AGS module is an $800 option.

Standby: Commonly sold by Generac, Kohler, Cummins, etc. housed in plastic or steel boxes and wired into a home’s electric system. Start automatically when the grid goes down. By their nature they have an on-board AGS system. These are rated for far fewer hours of use compared to Prime and Continuous duty class generators because they are used only during power outages. They may not be warrantied for off-grid use.

Backup Generators: This classification is much less rigorous but includes the countless open-frame and inverter/generators that are often discussed here. Maintenance intervals are about 50 hours or 10x more frequent than Prime generators. For the most part, these require a third-party AGS module but some companies are beginning to offer their own AGS solutions.

 

[jimf909]

Reserved

 

[Symbioquine]

For the DuroMAX XP9000iH, see my post here which would fall under the information category of AGS via relays. I haven't done it yet, but I have an Atkinson AGS unit that I plan to use to automate starting/stopping the XP9000iH via the ATS plug as I've documented in that post.

 

[jimf909]

For the DuroMAX XP9000iH, see my post here which would fall under the information category of AGS via relays. I haven't done it yet, but I have an Atkinson AGS unit that I plan to use to automate starting/stopping the XP9000iH via the ATS plug as I've documented in that post.

Cool. I've added a link to your post to the DIY resources. I used the 7 pin GX20 socket on the Westinghouse Wgen7500DF to provide the inputs to the Atkinson AGS module. Atkinson advised against this because they've seen different pinouts on Westinghouse generators but I confirmed that their pinout for the 9500DF matched the 7500DF.

From Atkinson Electronics:

 

[BuildTech]

REMOTE CONTROLLED AGS?

Good day all, I have a remote start genorator. It has the capability to have new remotes programmed to it also. I keep my genorator a good distance from my camp for sound reasons, I am completely off grid and quite reliant on my genorator. Grid tie is not am option in my location. I am in the process of upgrading my current solar system, for which I am doing in stages.

I would like to transition to total solar reliance eventually. In the time being I would like to use my genorator as back up power, w/ an auto start feature for when my SOC drops to low. As I add to my array and battery bank the use of the genorator will be phased out.

So to make my long story short, the genorator is aprox 60ft away from my inverter location. Alot of the AGS I see available are all hard wired to the genorator. Can anyone point me in the direction of a Remote Control AGS system I could use?

Much thanks from Northern New Brunswick ?

 

[jimf909]

The only wireless AGS that I can think of that would reliably work 60' away requires cell or wifi (something like this: Hyundai Electric Start Generator for Remote Start) but I'm guessing others know of other solutions. I haven't found the remotes that come with generators to be too reliable and definitely not 60' away.

My AGS module and generator are about 50' away from the inverters and I ran a 20 awg duplex signal wire to get the start signal from the inverters to the AGS module. In my system it only takes two wires to conduct the start signal to the AGS module and about 6 to run from the module to the generator. That's why I have the module adjacent to the generator.

https://www.amazon.com/Conductor-Electrical-Landscape-Stranded-Automotive/dp/B0BKK4N7CV/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1CTM7O1RFI3ZF&keywords=20+awg+2+conductor+wire&qid=1703612252&sprefix=20+awg+,aps,289&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

 

[BuildTech]

Thanks, that is a very interesting read for sure!
I think cellular would be a bit over kill in my situation, I would definitely be inclined to run a wire to the genorator and bury it, assuming I couldn't figure out an RC option. The key fobs that I have work very well, even inside the basement of the camp, it's quite a luxury to be able to start and stop the genorator as needed.

I seems to me that remote control AGS may have a very small niche and will be hard to find.

 

[Llaves]

Prime and Continuous Duty: technically two groups but they’re grouped here for simplicity; often diesel ranging from single-digit kW output to ginormous outputs. These generators can run 24/7 with an expected life in the tens of thousands of hours at ~500 hour maintenance intervals. This example of a 10kW Perkins Continuous Duty generator is rated for 30K hours of use and would potentially serve an off-grid install for decades. Still, the AGS module is an $800 option.

Thanks for a very useful thread. I looked up that Perkins generator and while it's rated to 30K hours, it's warranteed for 1 year, just like the Generac and Kohler generators warranteed for off-grid use. Not sure what that means in terms of real life expectancy, but obviously Perkins is choosing not to be on the hook for very long. Kind of makes me wonder what "rated for 30K hours" actually means.

 

[Checkthisout]

Thanks for a very useful thread. I looked up that Perkins generator and while it's rated to 30K hours, it's warranteed for 1 year, just like the Generac and Kohler generators warranteed for off-grid use. Not sure what that means in terms of real life expectancy, but obviously Perkins is choosing not to be on the hook for very long. Kind of makes me wonder what "rated for 30K hours" actually means.

Ha ha. 1 year is 8760 hours so apparently it'll run 3.5 years 24/7.

 

[Oldphile]

Thanks for a very useful thread. I looked up that Perkins generator and while it's rated to 30K hours, it's warranteed for 1 year, just like the Generac and Kohler generators warranteed for off-grid use. Not sure what that means in terms of real life expectancy, but obviously Perkins is choosing not to be on the hook for very long. Kind of makes me wonder what "rated for 30K hours" actually means.

When I got a Generac standby generator in 2010 they had 1000 hour service life on the spec sheet.

 

[sturk]

Thanks, that is a very interesting read for sure!
I think cellular would be a bit over kill in my situation, I would definitely be inclined to run a wire to the genorator and bury it, assuming I couldn't figure out an RC option. The key fobs that I have work very well, even inside the basement of the camp, it's quite a luxury to be able to start and stop the genorator as needed.

I seems to me that remote control AGS may have a very small niche and will be hard to find.

there is an old video on you tube by jpg23 on how to do a remote start it's about a year old

 

[Llaves]

When I got a Generac standby generator in 2010 they had 1000 hour service life on the spec sheet.

Generac spec sheets, at least now, don't contain anything stating a "service life". New Generac generators for residential (ie, not off-grid solar) use are warranteed for 2000 hours or 5 years.

 

[Llaves]

Ha ha. 1 year is 8760 hours so apparently it'll run 3.5 years 24/7.

That 30,000 rate life appears on the retail vendor's page. I was sufficiently intrigued that I looked at the spec sheets on the Perkins website and there is no mention of a "rated life". And on this vendor's page, the warranty is stated as 1 year, 1000 hours, whichever comes first. That's the same as the Generac Ecogen and Kohler 14RCA in off-grid service. The Perkins almost certainly will outlast either of those two generators, but Perkins doesn't stand behind it anymore than Kohler and Generac stand behind theirs.

The Kohler 30RCL is a liquid-cooled, 1800 RPM generator, like the Perkins, but natural gas/propane fueled, not diesel. Kohler offers a 5 year/2000 hour warranty. (Yeah, I'm a Kohler fanboy.) It's a 30kW generator, 3X the Perkins, comes with a sound enclosure, two-wire start, etc., all for 2X the price of the bare Perkins which needs a sound enclosure and an $800 remote start and maybe other add-ons.

Posts on forums for heavy equipment and diesels suggest a peak life more on the order of 10-20K hours for a well-maintained Perkins engine. While not 30K, that's nothing to sneer at. On the other hand, I would think a reasonably balanced off-grid system (balanced in terms of panels, batteries, and generator fuel use) would use only a couple of hundred hours of generator time per year (at most). Do you really need a generator with a rated hour life that would take the next 100 years to hit?

 

[ElectricIslander]

Ha! Already have 6000 hrs on our Honda 2200 inverter generator, but we have next to no solar panels yet and rely on generator power for about 14 hrs a day ..... solar panels coming!

 

[jimf909]

That 30,000 rate life appears on the retail vendor's page. I was sufficiently intrigued that I looked at the spec sheets on the Perkins website and there is no mention of a "rated life". And on this vendor's page, the warranty is stated as 1 year, 1000 hours, whichever comes first. That's the same as the Generac Ecogen and Kohler 14RCA in off-grid service. The Perkins almost certainly will outlast either of those two generators, but Perkins doesn't stand behind it anymore than Kohler and Generac stand behind theirs.

The Kohler 30RCL is a liquid-cooled, 1800 RPM generator, like the Perkins, but natural gas/propane fueled, not diesel. Kohler offers a 5 year/2000 hour warranty. (Yeah, I'm a Kohler fanboy.) It's a 30kW generator, 3X the Perkins, comes with a sound enclosure, two-wire start, etc., all for 2X the price of the bare Perkins which needs a sound enclosure and an $800 remote start and maybe other add-ons.

Posts on forums for heavy equipment and diesels suggest a peak life more on the order of 10-20K hours for a well-maintained Perkins engine. While not 30K, that's nothing to sneer at. On the other hand, I would think a reasonably balanced off-grid system (balanced in terms of panels, batteries, and generator fuel use) would use only a couple of hundred hours of generator time per year (at most). Do you really need a generator with a rated hour life that would take the next 100 years to hit?

With the price of panels and batteries dropping and the significant reduction in charge times of LiFePO4 batteries v. FLA batteries the need for generators is declining but reliable diesel generators are still needed for some installations.

It sounds like you should buy a Kohler. It meets your needs and preferences which is a bingo.

My Perkins 7.5kW generator has over 18K remarkably reliable hours on it (about 1,000 hours per year). I'm beginning to experiment with cheap dual-fuel generators because I'm running the generator about 1/4 - 1/3 as long having transitioned to LiFePO4 batteries and a higher charge rate but the diesel is the only one that meets my cold weather needs.

As for warranties, Perkins offers a two-year, 3000 hour warranty on it's motors and it can sit idle for 4 years before the warranty period starts. That goofy website you pointed to is based in China. Buy a Perkins diesel generator from a reliable dealer and get the full Perkins warranty.

https://www.perkins.com/en_GB/aftermarket/warranty.html

Warranty | Aurora Generators

www.auroragenerators.com

The key reasons to buy an industrial Perkins, Yanmar, Cummins, etc. diesel generator are:
- Drop dead reliability. These diesels have been running 24/7 in industrial and ag applications around the planet for decades. They power round-the-world sail boats that require reliability. This reliability costs money and is probably overkill for most off-grid applications.
- Diesels operate reliably in far harsher conditions than gasoline or propane generators. Last week it was -25 degrees F here and probably 80% of the Generac stand-by generators were frozen and puked their oil out the fill tubes, seals and other parts. The families relying on those generators had no electricity for a day or two in the dead of winter. Yikes! Granted, a carefully attended propane generator can be made to start in those conditions (I started mine) but many folks were clueless (their loss). The Perkins auto-started without any human intervention.

There are all kinds of products on the market and it's up to each of us to determine what best meets our individual needs.

 

[Oldphile]

10 years ago my life was dependent on a 20 year old Perkins in a sailboat. We got caught in a storm in the Northeast.