All in one hybrid inverter and rack batts- sigineer sungoldpower??

[mrpibb]

Ok so I am still trying to decide on an all in one hybrid low frequency split phase inverter for my rv build. I want the system to be as simple as possible. I wish I could afford a sol ark but not today.

I have so far limited it to:

sigineer:

Solar Power Inverter For Home 12000 Watt 48V to 120V 240V w/ 120A MPPT Controller ETL Listed

12000 Watt Solar Power Inverter For Home |120A solar charger Pure Sine Wave 48V dc to ac 12KW 120/240Vac, off grid, emergency backup power

www.sigineer.com

And sungoldpower :

12KW Hybrid Solar Inverter UL1741 Standard

Hightlight: ★ All in one unit: This power inverter for solar panels is UL1741 standard, integrated with a 120/240V 12KW split phase off grid pure sine wave inverter for houses, 80A AC charger, MPPT solar charge controllers and a transfer switch in one package. ★ Low Frequency best hybrid...

sungoldpower.com

Cost is basically the same.
From what I can understand these are both clones and the biggest difference is the sigineer is 40 lbs heavier? ? I'm concerned about the db of the fans of both, but I've read you can replace the fans with more premium ball bearing ones.

I want to buy 48v 200 amps of preassembled batteries to make it simple. I'd like them to communicate with the inverter as much as possible.

Sungoldpower has them $1000 cheaper than sigineer

48V Lithium Battery 200Ah 10KWH Deep Cycle for Solar Systems

48V Lithium Battery 200Ah 10KWH Deep Cycle for Solar Systems

www.sigineer.com

48V 100AH Server Rack LiFePO4 Lithium Battery SG48100P

Highlight: ★Character: The 51.2V 100AH LFP Battery is compact, well-designed, LCD, and cable/accessories ready for installation. ≥7000 cycles deep cycle & 10 years warranty, designed for up to 15-year life. ★Intelligent BMS :Battery Management System can manage and monitor cells information...

sungoldpower.com

Do you think the batteries are interchangable between inverters??

I think I want the sigineer inverter and sungoldpower batteries. But if they won't communicate I could just stick with all sungoldpower...

Any thoughts? Many thanks!!

 

[sunshine_eggo]

For RV, UL458 units would be preferred. They're UL listed for RV applications and consider vibration effects.

The two you are looking at are absolute monstrosities.

They are going to have a massive idle burn. The circuitry used to make AC power available even if no loads are in use is going to consume about 200W continuously.

200W * 24h = 4800Wh

200Ah * 51.2V = 10240Wh

4800/10240 = 47%

That is, your inverters will consume 47% of your battery capacity even if you are not consuming any power at all in the RV.

You will need 1000W of solar just to feed the idle drain of the inverters, i.e., the first 1000W of your array won't be usable for your needs.

No idea, but it's unlikely that any of the batteries you've selected will communicate with the inverters you've selected.

To me it sounds like you don't really have much of an idea of what you actually need and you're picking 12kW because you have a 50A RV.

You need to evaluate your actual usage and needs and select a system that meets those needs.

Start with link #1 in my signature.

 

[mrpibb]

Some good points made. Ty!

I want to be able to run high inductive loads for short periods of time.(Saw, Air compressor, welder, water heater, a/c ect)
I don't think a 6kw split phase will be beefy enough for me. I don't think I will be running more than 6kw at any point but these inverters don't like to be pushed to the max and the split phases should be balanced. And with high output ability comes the idle power draw. So I agree 180-200w is a lot but can you recommend any 10-12kw inverter that will do it with dramatically less loss?

Im thinking about the idle draw.
Maybe I should run 2 separate inverters? A 6k LF that is normally turned off and a 6k HF that I normally run everything on. And when I need the power turn on the other? The best of both worlds?!


My budget is $3500 max give or take for just the inverter/s.
I'd rather spend less, but I want to buy the inverter once. Not buy a cheap pos and have to go back and spend twice as much a second time.


I was really interested in the eg4 8k inverter but watched a few horror programming videos online that steered away my interest. It seemed like eg4 is trying hard to make nice consumer entry stuff but the user interface needs work.

I will have over 2000w of panels on top. I like the idea of the inefficient LF inverters because they should be indestructible compared to the hf Chinese ones that people complain about regarding larger loads. But maybe your right about the idle consumption. Do you think this powmr is a better choice? (I couldn't find a spec on idle draw)

https://powmr.com/inverters/10kw-all-in-one-solar-charger-inverter-split-and-single-phase/

Concerning the batteries I don't know a lot about battery bms/communication but was assuming that batteries offered by a manufacturer (powmr, sigineer, sungoldpower) would be compatible with the same brand inverters at the very least. I have a set of 16) 200A lifepo4 eve cells I got from AliExpress from another project I can use but figured I should have a bms and don't want to have to build one. I want this to be as simple as I can make it. I don't mind spending a few thousand on new batteries but again rather spend less.

One last point I found the sigineer does make the same inverter with ul certification for an extra $900.

So many choices and nothing screams to me: BUY ME! Thank you for your help in figuring this out.

 

[BobH]

Saw, Air compressor, welder

Since these are very intermittent, why don't you run them off of a generator when needed & then size your system off of normal usage - ac, lights, h2o heater, furnace fan, computers, appliances, etc?

 

[mrpibb]

Since these are very intermittent, why don't you run them off of a generator when needed & then size your system off of normal usage - ac, lights, h2o heater, furnace fan, computers, appliances, etc

You make a valid point.

Ok so I would still like a decent hybrid transfer switching all in one inverter for simplicity of installation. I could probably cut my power output in half.

The sol-ark at $3500 becomes a possibility if I can make 5kw work which I think I could. Or I can save some money with a cheaper Chinese hf inverter in the 5-6 kw range. Can you recommend one ? Are all the companies pretty much the same cheap crap?

If I can't decide on a good all in one system soon I'm leaning towards just running multiple 100a mppt solar controllers like renology or epever and keeping my system at 12v instead of 48v.
Then I can use the battery to jump a vehicle and not need the buy multiple dc to dc converters as well.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Some good points made. Ty!

I want to be able to run high inductive loads for short periods of time.(Saw, Air compressor, welder, water heater, a/c ect)

Water heater is a resistive load.

RV A/C is a back breaker. You might get 6 hours run time.

Again, you list a bunch of things, but have you estimated how many concurrent and for how long each to determine your actual energy needs?

Kinda importat.

I don't think a 6kw split phase will be beefy enough for me.

My neighbor ran a 700' deep 3hp (14kW Surge) Grundfos well pump off a Sigineer 6kW. Worked great.

I don't think I will be running more than 6kw at any point but these inverters don't like to be pushed to the max

Fair

and the split phases should be balanced.

Each leg delivers half rated power.

And with high output ability comes the idle power draw.

Not really. Cheap Chinese stuff has the high idle draw. Tier 1 hardware has the lower idle draw.

So I agree 180-200w is a lot but can you recommend any 10-12kw inverter that will do it with dramatically less loss?

2X Victron Quattro 48/5000 will consume 60-80W total.

Im thinking about the idle draw.
Maybe I should run 2 separate inverters? A 6k LF that is normally turned off and a 6k HF that I normally run everything on. And when I need the power turn on the other? The best of both worlds?!

They will have about the same idle draw, so 100W for the "HF" unit.

My budget is $3500 max give or take for just the inverter/s.
I'd rather spend less, but I want to buy the inverter once. Not buy a cheap pos and have to go back and spend twice as much a second time.

Again, I think a detailed audit of your actual needs is in order.

I was really interested in the eg4 8k inverter but watched a few horror programming videos online that steered away my interest. It seemed like eg4 is trying hard to make nice consumer entry stuff but the user interface needs work.

I will have over 2000w of panels on top.

This is crippling. Assuming you get great sun on perfectly tilted panels with no shading from sunrise to sunset, you're only going to get 10kWh of power.

I like the idea of the inefficient LF inverters because they should be indestructible compared to the hf Chinese ones that people complain about regarding larger loads. But maybe your right about the idle consumption. Do you think this powmr is a better choice? (I couldn't find a spec on idle draw)

https://powmr.com/inverters/10kw-all-in-one-solar-charger-inverter-split-and-single-phase/

That unit will still have the same high idle consumption.

Cheap Chinese = high idle consumption - HF/LF doesn't matter.

Tier 1 = low idle consumption.

Concerning the batteries I don't know a lot about battery bms/communication but was assuming that batteries offered by a manufacturer (powmr, sigineer, sungoldpower) would be compatible with the same brand inverters at the very least.

Not a valid assumption. You need to investigate each product individually.

I have a set of 16) 200A lifepo4 eve cells I got from AliExpress from another project I can use but figured I should have a bms and don't want to have to build one. I want this to be as simple as I can make it. I don't mind spending a few thousand on new batteries but again rather spend less.

One last point I found the sigineer does make the same inverter with ul certification for an extra $900.

So many choices and nothing screams to me: BUY ME! Thank you for your help in figuring this out.

Please do an energy audit - line #1 in my signature. Realistic guesses are dramatically better than shooting from the hip.

 

[mrpibb]

I do not plan to run mainly on solar.

The system will be designed as a battery backup only. I plan to use rv park power 95% of the time. As far as the audit goes the only power I will be running daily is a 100w/hr mini fridge and the 1800w a/c cycling. Maybe a 50w/hr led light.

I will not be using very much power regularly and don't really care if I don't run the a/c at all on solar. It's not really a system for regular everyday use. I just want to have the ability to do things when I need to.

The water heater will be seldom ran if ever without grid power, but maybe a stay at some state parks will enable it. I haven't chosen the w/h yet but was thinking the smallest 220 one is like 3500w.

I don't want to go less than 6kw.
So it looks like the best hybrid all in one ~6kw is the 5kw sol- ark. Otherwise I have to run it with multiple components such as with the victron you suggested, which is ok too. I have to think about it some more.

The part of your post the surprised me is that I'm only getting 10kw a day from 2kw system. I am in sunny Florida. I figured I would get more like 8-10 hours a day of charging giving me closer to 15-20kw. But from looking at other sources they chime in with similar numbers. Id hate to be in Alaska.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

The part of your post the surprised me is that I'm only getting 10kw a day from 2kw system. I am in sunny Florida. I figured I would get more like 8-10 hours a day of charging giving me closer to 15-20kw. But from looking at other sources they chime in with similar numbers. Id hate to be in Alaska.

Panels only produce rated power at high noon when perfectly perpendicular to the sun with exactly 1000W/m^2 hitting the panel AND the cells aren't being heated by the sun (they are).

So the area under the dotted line curve is equivalent to about 5 hours of peak production equivalent in good conditions. You can verify your daily kWh by month in the aforementioned link #1.

Note that any roof protrusions that partially shade panels will destroy production. Shading is PV's kryptonite. Shade single cell in a panel, and you lose 1/3rd of its output.

I ran it for Orlando with flat panels:




From April to August, you'll get between 12 and 14kWh/day. From September to March, you'll get 10kWh or less. Note that in Dec/Jan, you get only 6-7kWh.

When you look at the average annual of 5.15, that's 10.3kWh/day...

When looking at solar panel datasheets, most have a NOCT or some other four letter abbreviation for more real-world performance. This factors in less than perfect insolation and the heating of the cells to 40-50°C. They tend to be around 70-80% of the "ideal" rated power.

 

[mrpibb]

Ok did some digging into the sigineer manual and found this:

2.4.4 Power Saver
There are two working statuses for M Series inverters: “Power On” and “Power Off”.
When power switch is in the “Unit Off” position, the inverter is powered off.
When power switch is turned to either “Power Saver Auto” or “Power Saver Off”, the inverter is powered
on.
The “Power Saver” function is dedicated to conserve battery power when AC power demand is either
minimal or not required at all by the loads.
In this mode, the inverter pulses the AC output looking for an AC load (i.e., electrical appliance). Whenever
an AC load (greater than 500 watts at 120Vac) is turned on, the inverter recognizes the need for power and
automatically starts inverting and output goes to full voltage. When there is no load (or less than 500 watts)
detected, the inverter automatically goes back into search mode to minimize energy consumption from the
battery bank.
In “Power saver on” mode, the inverter will draw power mainly in sensing moments, thus the idle
consumption is significantly reduced.
Power Saver On Power Saver Off Power Saver On (Load detected)
Note: The minimum power of a load to take inverter out of sleep mode (Power Saver On) is 500 Watts
on each hot line. There is load detection on each of the hot lines.
When the inverter is in idle, even there is AC input power, the inverter will discharge the battery as
the LCD, relay, fans are powered by DC.
M Series Inverter/Charger Idle Power Consumption (in Watts)

In the “search sense” mode, the LED will blink and the inverter will make a ticking sound. At full output
voltage, the inverter will make a steady humming sound. When the inverter is used as an “uninterruptible”
power supply the search sense mode function should be defeated.
Exceptions
Some devices, when scanned by the load sensor, cannot be detected. Small fluorescent lights are the most
common example. (Try altering the plug polarity by turning the plug over.) Some computers and
sophisticated electronics have power supplies that do not present a load until line voltage is available. When
this occurs, each unit waits for the other to begin. To drive these loads, either a small companion load must
be used to bring the inverter out of its search mode, or the inverter may be programmed to remain operating
at full output voltage.

 

[mrpibb]

So this means if I keep my load under 500w. (Just the mini fridge no a/c) that the idle consumption will be reduced from 180 to 40w?!?!

When it is in this mode is it still giving the 500 watts or nothing at all and completely shut down?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Note: The minimum power of a load to take inverter out of sleep mode (Power Saver On) is 500 Watts
on each hot line. There is load detection on each of the hot lines

This says that when in power saver mode, it will not recognize anything with less than 500W draw on each 120VAC leg. If you are using 240V items, they need to be at least 1000W.

If you want the inverter cycling on and off with each > 500W/1000W load, this is fine. If you have anything that you wish to run continuously that's less than 500W between tool uses (fan), you can't use this mode.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

So this means if I keep my load under 500w. (Just the mini fridge no a/c) that the idle consumption will be reduced from 180 to 40w?!?!

No. It means it won't run the fridge at all. It counts anything under 500W as 0W and doesn't turn on.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Reduced power consumption comes from it not supplying a 60Hz sine wave. It sends out much less frequent "pulses" seeing if anything tries to draw from the signal. IIRC, the manual has this graphically shown.

 

[mrpibb]

Ok that makes sense ty

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Ok that makes sense ty

A good general rule is that if anything on an inverter requires continuous AC power, power saving modes can't be used.

Even a fridge at idle with the compressor off requires a tiny amount of power to run the thermostat/circuitry.

 

[Quattrohead]

My SP6548 split phase pair are running my HWT, dryer and AC compressor with 120w stand by consumption.
Make sure you get the older 250 volt PV input versions because apparently the newer high voltage PV versions consume a lot more standby voltage as shown by eg4 6500 and lv6548v inverters.
Current connected have the lv6548 in their clearance section for 900 bucks a pop

 

[sunshine_eggo]

My SP6548 split phase pair are running my HWT, dryer and AC compressor with 120w stand by consumption.
Make sure you get the older 250 volt PV input versions because apparently the newer high voltage PV versions consume a lot more standby voltage as shown by eg4 6500 and lv6548v inverters.
Current connected have the lv6548 in their clearance section for 900 bucks a pop

A thing I don't like about those 250V units is it's essentially impossible to get 4000W out of their MPPT.

With a nominal 223Vmp and 18A peak PV current input, there's just no way to not exceed 250Voc with panels at 223Vmp. Those panels are going to be closer to 275Voc.

6S 60 cell panels at about 222Voc (low temp margin under 250Voc) will only yield 178Vmp and about 3200W.

 

[42OhmsPA]

It sounds like the TP6048 would handle your loads just fine, if you keep them balanced and managed. As mentioned the idle consumption of the cheap inverters is excessive.
Buy a Schneider and be done with it, that's what I wish I did.

 

[mrpibb]

My SP6548 split phase pair are running my HWT, dryer and AC compressor with 120w stand by consumption.
Make sure you get the older 250 volt PV input versions because apparently the newer high voltage PV versions consume a lot more standby voltage as shown by eg4 6500 and lv6548v inverters.
Current connected have the lv6548 in their clearance section for 900 bucks a pop

Wow $900 I think you talked me into it. If I don't like it I will start over.

Ok now I just wanted to confirm:

Let's say I got 2 of these and ran them split phase like you are. They each have 2 mppt inputs. Does that mean I can now double the solar and would have up to 4 solar charge controller inputs?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Wow $900 I think you talked me into it. If I don't like it I will start over.

Ok now I just wanted to confirm:

Let's say I got 2 of these and ran them split phase like you are. They each have 2 mppt inputs. Does that mean I can now double the solar and would have up to 4 solar charge controller inputs?

Yes, two in parallel either as split phase or 2X 120VAC power will have 4 MPPT inputs. Just consider that you can't realistically get 4000W out of each. The voltage and 18A input current limits restrict you to about 3200W.