Are there any LiFe batteries that just "Work"? (a bit of a vent)

[Rednecktek]

OK, /VENT:

So it seems like every 3rd topic on here is another "Tweaking with the battery" topic. All over the place you'll see threads about such things as:

My battery hit low voltage and it didn't turn back on
My battery got cold and didn't turn on when it warmed up
I had to log into the app for (all sorts of issues)
My battery has to be reset with a special charger
My battery isn't holding the load
My battery drew too much current and shut off

And so on, and so on, and so on... It seems like there isn't a single LiFe battery manufacturer that just "Works" all the time.

Now, I come from the FLA and AGM world so maybe I'm just biased but I've never had to open an app or connect my battery to the internet to get power out of the terminals. I can charge my batteries with off-the-shelf chargers available at the auto parts store (yes, even 24v).

I've kicked around the idea of pulling the trigger and making my own 24v LiFe pack for my new sheds, but even then I have to have a special "Activation" switch to turn it on, then I have to log in via Bluetooth to configure it, and that's after I have to have a special adjustable bench top power supply to balance all the cells, and so on. That seems like a major hassle when I'm not even stateside for 8-10 months a year. If anything goes wrong with the battery it's just going to sit there dead until I get home?

Granted, I'm not space constrained as much as temperature constrained so I don't have to worry about every ounce of weight. Call me weird but is it too much to ask for a battery that is truly "Plug-n-play"?

Sorry, just getting overwhelmed...

BTW, is anyone ever just whelmed?

 

[stienman]

Horses for courses!

LiFePO4 isn't "All that and a bag of chips" - there's tradeoffs just like every other chemistry.

FLA/AGM are very close to bulletproof. You can throw a lot of difficult situations at them and they'll still hold some charge and work even after significant damage.

Lithium based batteries are much more temperamental, but they come with the significant benefit of higher capacity per weight/volume, and better depth of discharge characteristics.

All the safety systems are meant to allow people to treat them as badly as they treat lead acid/agm batteries without the negative(s) associated with lithium.

When a lead-acid/AGM battery appears dead - you charge it. That's it. That's all it takes to bring it back up, assuming catastrophic damage hasn't occurred.

The same is true with the protected LiFePO4 batteries. If it appears dead, you charge it. The only significant difference is that they won't charge when cold - but they will turn back on and if there's charge left they'll continue to discharge. If you need cold weather performance you buy one that includes a heater that's only active when charging.

But if all this is off-putting, then yes, you may be better off with lead acid/AGM chemistry.

I suppose it would be interesting for a manufacturer to add the BMS, a heating pad, and a DC-DC converter so the cell doesn't ever shut off - it just lower its voltage until its output power is lower than its cell's capability at a given level of charge below, say, 10% of its capacity. So it never hits 0%, but you might only see 3.4v output with an amp load, similar to a nearly discharged lead acid/AGM. When it gets to 1% it outputs 0.3v at 1 amp load - less than a watt - which it should be able to do for many days before really hitting bottom.

When you see the low voltage, you know you need to charge it.

When it's above 10% capacity, or when being charged, it switches out the DC converter and has the cells going directly to the terminals. That and the heating pad (which is only active when being charged when the cell temperature is too low) would probably eliminate most of the concerns indicated. The DC-DC converter would only need to handle perhaps 20 watts, so it wouldn't need to be big or expensive. The heating pad would be a simple cheap silicone pad.

So.... yes, I think it's possible.

The next question is would you be willing to pay an additional $50-$100 per battery for those additional features?

 

[BaronVerde]

Someone interrupt me if I talk nonsense, but isn't AGM the more sensitive technology, compared to LiFePo4 ? I have dealt with AGM and Gel in boats and in a camper.

I have only just ordered my LiFePo4 packs, so not yet the real practical experience with LiFePo4.

Breaker(s) and fuse(s) should be present. Allways when there's electricity involved. If not, there's imminent danger anyway. Breakers and fuses must have the correct dimensions. And those electronic thingies (BMSes) must be configured, that's clear. If that needs an app, can be done with performing some button-magic on the front of the case, or via a protocol over ethernet/can/whatever, I will have to see once the stuff arrives. BMSes come with presets that can be tweaked, but I'd rather tweak them towards the conservative side than allow overloading or too deep a discharge.

I'd also expect to take the batterie(s) out of an RV for instance and in a heated garage, if said RV is parked for months in cold weather. If I can't, I'd expect the batteries to be deeply discharged and needing external charging with a regulated power supply to come back to life. An ageing AGM/Gel may be kaputt after months in minus °C without charge, a LiFePo4 may have a shorter life expentancy after such a treatment (waiting for correction here).

Question, is it out of the question for you to buy a ready made LiFePo4 battery ? That may be the better way, as they have swithces and fuses built in (mostly), and their BMSes are ready configured.

 

[Bluedog225]

My battle borns have been reliable.

 

[robby]

Battery packs that cost twice the price come with all those bells and whistles. Once installed it’s pretty much set and forget and if you close loop it to the inverter there is nothing to even set.

 

[circus]

It seems like there isn't a single LiFe battery manufacturer that just "Works" all the time.

Reminds me of my first fill in the blank . Remember your first computer? Expensive too.

 

[Rednecktek]

Reminds me of my first fill in the blank . Remember your first computer? Expensive too.

I still have it, a Tandy 1000RL and it still works.

The next question is would you be willing to pay an additional $50-$100 per battery for those additional features?

$100? Sure, but even batteries with low temp protection like to charge $300+ for the temperature probe. And what I've read that doesn't always mean they'll turn back on when the sun comes back out until you "reboot" them with a charger and/or a phone app.

 

[stienman]

I still have it, a Tandy 1000RL and it still works.

$100? Sure, but even batteries with low temp protection like to charge $300+ for the temperature probe. And what I've read that doesn't always mean they'll turn back on when the sun comes back out until you "reboot" them with a charger and/or a phone app.

I'm probably being unrealistic with the price. The kind of people who demand hand-holding batteries are also the kind of people who will return them at the drop of a hat, and do nothing to protect them from damage themselves, so the margins must be large to pay for "warranty" coverage that is used for customers who make warranty claims for user caused damage.

The components to add a heating pad, insulation, and a DC-DC converter would cost $100 additional, but the cell markup would probably be $200-$300 additional.

 

[rmaddy]

What is a LiFe battery? Do you mean LiFePO4? If you wish to abbreviate LiFePO₄ then it would be LFP, not LiFe. This goes well with AGM and FLA.

 

[Ampster]

I moved to LFP ten years ago on an ebike project. I find LFPs more efficient and easier despite the need for a BMS. No watering, no equalization, no long CV (absorb and float) stages to make sure they don't lose capacity.

 

[toms]

What is a LiFe battery? Do you mean LiFePO4? If you wish to abbreviate LiFePO₄ then it would be LFP, not LiFe. This goes well with AGM and FLA.

LFP is the abbreviation for large format prismatic.

You can get LFP cells that aren’t LiFePO4

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

OK, /VENT:

So it seems like every 3rd topic on here is another "Tweaking with the battery" topic. All over the place you'll see threads about such things as:

My battery hit low voltage and it didn't turn back on
My battery got cold and didn't turn on when it warmed up
I had to log into the app for (all sorts of issues)
My battery has to be reset with a special charger
My battery isn't holding the load
My battery drew too much current and shut off

And so on, and so on, and so on... It seems like there isn't a single LiFe battery manufacturer that just "Works" all the time.

Now, I come from the FLA and AGM world so maybe I'm just biased but I've never had to open an app or connect my battery to the internet to get power out of the terminals. I can charge my batteries with off-the-shelf chargers available at the auto parts store (yes, even 24v).

I've kicked around the idea of pulling the trigger and making my own 24v LiFe pack for my new sheds, but even then I have to have a special "Activation" switch to turn it on, then I have to log in via Bluetooth to configure it, and that's after I have to have a special adjustable bench top power supply to balance all the cells, and so on. That seems like a major hassle when I'm not even stateside for 8-10 months a year. If anything goes wrong with the battery it's just going to sit there dead until I get home?

Granted, I'm not space constrained as much as temperature constrained so I don't have to worry about every ounce of weight. Call me weird but is it too much to ask for a battery that is truly "Plug-n-play"?

Sorry, just getting overwhelmed...

BTW, is anyone ever just whelmed?

You have to me remember that this is a DIY forum and there are a lot of newbs learning this stuff, who make newb mistakes, both in installation and configuration. It should also be recognized that this is a somewhat new technology to the mainstream. Things aren't quite as refined as the old tried and true LA (yet).

if you've watched will's videos, you can see he's like a beta tester for many of these battery assembler companies. He tears them down, reviews them, and critiques them. Many of the MFGs that he's done this for take that data and make corrections. This is how a new technology becomes refined. If you want to DIY, expect to do some learning. If you want "it just works" (like the apple mantra) shell out the big bucks for the battleborn LFPs or stick with what you're familiar with. My DIY system just works. It took me a few months of fine tuning, but the investment was well worth it, IMO. Good luck with your battery projects (whatever they may be)!

 

[rmaddy]

LFP is the abbreviation for large format prismatic.

You can get LFP cells that aren’t LiFePO4

The abbreviations page on this forum and Wikipedia both use LFP for LiFePO₄.

Commonly used Forum Acronyms & Abbreviations

Solar is befuddling enough! Why use acronyms? Well, we're lazy typists.... :LOL: xSyP - e.g., 2S2P, shorthand for how many cells in Series (S) and Parallel (P). A - Amperes or amps. A measure of current. See warning. AC - Air Conditioning, sometimes A/C. AC - Alternating Current, a waveform...

diysolarforum.com

Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[pellicle]

I still have it, a Tandy 1000RL and it still works.

OMG ... isn't that like too valuable to even tell anyone you have at home?

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

n

The abbreviations page on this forum and Wikipedia both use LFP for LiFePO₄.

Commonly used Forum Acronyms & Abbreviations

Solar is befuddling enough! Why use acronyms? Well, we're lazy typists.... :LOL: xSyP - e.g., 2S2P, shorthand for how many cells in Series (S) and Parallel (P). A - Amperes or amps. A measure of current. See warning. AC - Air Conditioning, sometimes A/C. AC - Alternating Current, a waveform...

diysolarforum.com

Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

not everyone is going to read your abbreviations or wiki post (regardless of how accurate they may or may not be). If someone is trying to be specific about lithium polonium or w/etf they are, I would expect them to clearly communicate that ambiguity since the majority of Will's videos, comments, teardowns, and projects (as well as this forum) revolve around lithium iron phosphate. get a grip and stop splitting hairs.

 

[GLC]

OK, /VENT:

So it seems like every 3rd topic on here is another "Tweaking with the battery" topic. All over the place you'll see threads about such things as:

My battery hit low voltage and it didn't turn back on
My battery got cold and didn't turn on when it warmed up
I had to log into the app for (all sorts of issues)
My battery has to be reset with a special charger
My battery isn't holding the load
My battery drew too much current and shut off

And so on, and so on, and so on... It seems like there isn't a single LiFe battery manufacturer that just "Works" all the time.

Now, I come from the FLA and AGM world so maybe I'm just biased but I've never had to open an app or connect my battery to the internet to get power out of the terminals. I can charge my batteries with off-the-shelf chargers available at the auto parts store (yes, even 24v).

I've kicked around the idea of pulling the trigger and making my own 24v LiFe pack for my new sheds, but even then I have to have a special "Activation" switch to turn it on, then I have to log in via Bluetooth to configure it, and that's after I have to have a special adjustable bench top power supply to balance all the cells, and so on. That seems like a major hassle when I'm not even stateside for 8-10 months a year. If anything goes wrong with the battery it's just going to sit there dead until I get home?

Granted, I'm not space constrained as much as temperature constrained so I don't have to worry about every ounce of weight. Call me weird but is it too much to ask for a battery that is truly "Plug-n-play"?

Sorry, just getting overwhelmed...

BTW, is anyone ever just whelmed?

Just buy Battleborn batteries, problems solved.

 

[WYtreasure]

OK, /VENT:

So it seems like every 3rd topic on here is another "Tweaking with the battery" topic. All over the place you'll see threads about such things as:

BTW, is anyone ever just whelmed?

I've heard that I am underwhelming. Is that the same?

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

I've heard that I am underwhelming. Is that the same?

Lol, well if we're going by dictionary definitions, i guess a standard six foot grave would appropriately whelm its occupant, while anything more than that would overwhelm it and anything less would...you guessed it, underwhelm. So, to answer your question, no. ?

 

[toms]

The abbreviations page on this forum and Wikipedia both use LFP for LiFePO₄.

Commonly used Forum Acronyms & Abbreviations

Solar is befuddling enough! Why use acronyms? Well, we're lazy typists.... :LOL: xSyP - e.g., 2S2P, shorthand for how many cells in Series (S) and Parallel (P). A - Amperes or amps. A measure of current. See warning. AC - Air Conditioning, sometimes A/C. AC - Alternating Current, a waveform...

diysolarforum.com

Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well i stand corrected - if wikipedia and a DIY forum both say it, it must be right. ?

 

[Ampster]

@DerpsyDoodler beat me to the explanation.

The other nomenclature that I am not sure about is the term Li Ion. I have always thougtht, and the abbreviations page agrees, that it is any of the batteries containing Lithium which would be LFP, NMC, NCA and LiPo. Some people use it icorrectly to only refer to NMC and NCA