At what price does LFP storage make it possible to go off-grid?

[Ampster]

Solar Thermal in 2000, Build a Electric car in 2008, Solar PV in 2011, EV Scooter in 2012

Ha, my sequence was slightly different but the basic process was the same. I built an E bike in 2010 and one day after I souped it up and was going 35 mph to the gym I had this thought that I wanted a little more sheet metal around me. So I picked up an old VW and converted it. I still have the ebike but I sold the VW when I bought a real EV and have had the EV grin ever since. I loved the look on peoples faces when this old VW lurched away from stops. My 0 to 60 times were incredible. That would be 0 to 60 feet.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

Lol, I actually got a Vegetable Oil Burning Diesel in my Garage. A good old Volvo 850 TDI.

Converted in 2004 - still going strong. You need to preheat the Grease and adjust engine timing to very early, otherwise you get unburned fuel on your exhaust valves until they don't close anymore. Drove about 200.000 km without paying for fuel by picking up frying oil from restaurants in my youth. Now I mostly drive diesel and store bought oil because of the mess the filtering of WVO (Waste veggie oil) makes behind the house.

Biodiesel is hydrophilic toxic waste destroys every seal in a engine which can be stored maybe for a 2-3 months. Veggie Oil can be stored for almost indefinite. I've bought 10 year expired oil by the IBC Container Pallet. No issues whatsoever.

I've got a '99 f250 7.3 powerstroke that is supposed to be able to burn vegetable oil, so back in '07 when I was still on the road for work I made a deal with the owner of an rv park where I was holed up that also had a bbq joint there at the park, to take his waste oil. I had a grand idea of doing just what you described and began carrying home 5 gallon buckets of used oil. About 3 months into it I began to get competition to the point I lost out. That left me with 2-35gal drums of used nasty oil and it sat behind my barn for probably 5 years before I finally took it 5 gallons at a time and dumped it at the wallyworld depository.
That's my biodiesel testimonial.

 

[Zwy]

A fella told me last year when I was having my system installed that he preferred to keep his xtra money in the form of silver bullion in his safe because the dollar was worth-less everyday. I told him if he'd go grid-tie solar he could store his silver on the roof where it would actually do something instead of just take up space in an expensive safe. Since then silver has gone down by about $3 oz.

I bought back during the big drop in 2020 at $14/oz. That's all I have to say about that.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

I bought back during the big drop in 2020 at $14/oz. That's all I have to say about that.

Currently sitting on the last of my silver eagles as souvenirs to give my grandkids. I bought bullion back in '92 @$5 and change. Sold of most of it when it finally hit $14 in '06. I had to hold it for 14 years to feel like I didn't lose on the deal. It was costing my powerstroke fuel mileage dragging it around the country and it was a relief to be rid of it.
That fella bought $14 silver in 2020 too. That's where the discussion began.

 

[Zwy]

A way to store summer photons for winter combustion would be useful.
Biofuels are one way. Your biogas could be good. Maybe biodiesel. Firewood is basic.
But if hydrolysis and hydrogenation let spare photons boost energy content of biodiesel (not to the point of "grease car" which apparently cokes up the engine), that could add to the mix.

Alright, I'll let you in on the hydrogen thing that I know of. Back in the late 80's, there was this fella by Des Moines, IA by the name of John Lorenzen. https://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/self-taught-engineer-zmaz80mazraw There is a Youtube video out there about him but you can't be in the USA to see it or to access you need a VPN.

Dad found his phone number and took us 3 boys on a road trip after calling him and John invited us down for a visit. We killed the whole day there. John was close to 80 years old and nuttier than a fruitcake. But he was interesting. He ran HHO generators on his vehicles, claimed he got 10 mpg more with it (carburetors back then) and he leaned it out, had a big solar collector on the roof of his shop and had machinery he handbuilt years earlier when he was farming that was ahead of it's time. He always said Minneapolis Moline stole his tractor cab idea.

He had 3 Jacobs chargers in his yard, no utility hookup. Big bank of Edison batteries. He would throw a switch that was connected to a series of stainless plates and drop that in a bucket of water. Then he'd take a torch lighter and set off the hydrogen, laughing like a crazy man the whole time. It was quite entertaining.

John always wanted to bottle the hydrogen and heat his house. He claimed he had been filling 100 lb cylinders for his cookstove for some time, took some time to get the burn just right.

He wanted to take a 1000 gallon LP tank, bury it in the yard and store hydrogen for his house furnace in it. I never was back again to see if he succeeded; and I don't recall ever seeing a bright burst of light at night coming from his direction.

First thing is hydrogen embrittlement of steel, second is how to store enough capacity. Compressed hydrogen still isn't energy dense.

 

[Zwy]

Currently sitting on the last of my silver eagles as souvenirs to give my grandkids. I bought bullion back in '92 @$5 and change. Sold of most of it when it finally hit $14 in '06. I had to hold it for 14 years to feel like I didn't lose on the deal. It was costing my powerstroke fuel mileage dragging it around the country and it was a relief to be rid of it.
That fella bought $14 silver in 2020 too. That's where the discussion began.

If he bought half then and then some more, he will be fine. Metals are insurance against hyperinflation if it ever comes. The way things are going, it just might.

 

[Hedges]

There is compressed hydrogen, or cryogenically stored.
Then there is Crisco, hydrogenated vegetable oil.
One company proposes to use a hydrocarbon they said was similar to diesel. Reading the hazards on its MSDS, I'm not sure about that.
Around 70% round trip efficiency storing and retrieving the hydrogen. Haul and store as liquid fuel at atmospheric temperature.
They propose this as a way to move to a hydrogen economy.

 

[Ampster]

@chopper must have been one of those guys I beat across the intersection in my VW conversion. He gave me an Angry emoticon. LOL

 

[Ampster]

Haul and store as liquid fuel at atmospheric temperature.

How do they do that with Hydrogen? Or were you referring to Crisco?

 

[Zwy]

I'll give some figures. 32 280Ah cells from Amy. $140 ea x 32 = $4480 shipped. Batrium was CORE and 2 K9's, $1267 shipped. ABB breaker $150. Cabinet for batteries, $200. A few hundred for breakers, cable, cable ends. $35 for 48V to 24V transformer on shunt trip. $6132 total

Figure it out for 3000 and 6000 cycles, per Kw.

No takers on this?

3000 cycles = $0.0757 6000 cycles = $0.03785

Does it meet the criteria for the title of this thread?

 

[Hedges]

How do they do that with Hydrogen? Or were you referring to Crisco?

Tastes just like Crisco.

Bubble hydrogen through a hydrocarbon in the presence of a catalyst, and it becomes part of a more complex molecule.
Later crack the heavier molecule and release the hydrogen.

Scrubbed clean, can feed a fuel cell.
What I wonder is, how much added energy in the fuel? Reasonable to burn in ICE or furnace? Or should the hydrogen be extracted and carrier hydrocarbon (or carbohydrate) re-used the following season to store more hydrogen?

 

[eXodus]

Tastes just like Crisco.

Bubble hydrogen through a hydrocarbon in the presence of a catalyst, and it becomes part of a more complex molecule.
Later crack the heavier molecule and release the hydrogen.

Scrubbed clean, can feed a fuel cell.
What I wonder is, how much added energy in the fuel? Reasonable to burn in ICE or furnace? Or should the hydrogen be extracted and carrier hydrocarbon (or carbohydrate) re-used the following season to store more hydrogen?

you plant canola or sunflower - harvest the seeds - put them in a mechanical press. You got oil to store indefinite.

Reading the hazards on its MSDS,

If you don't burn it in your vehicle, you can eat it. Tastes great. Plant oil are the ideal thermal energy storage medium.

No heavy industry required. No refining plants, all simple backyard stuff.

 

[Hedges]

Yes, but what I'm pondering is the possibility of adding energy content to previous season's seed harvest by hydrogenation, using surplus electrical generation from PV.
If off-grid and batteries full during the summer, or on-grid and and export not allowed or not credited at high enough value, this could be a way to store power for months or longer.

A pound of vegetable oil, plus all the hydrogen it can eat, equals how many pounds of Crisco? And what difference in energy density?

 

[12VoltInstalls]

might help if we work towards an agreed process for calculating the per kWh cost which anyone can use and plug in the values for the variables applicable in their individual case.

I remember so little of what little coding I knew when I went back into construction/mechanical in 2001 that I can’t hack anything up. Maybe using excel…

Somebody competent could take just this thread and create the optioned forms to do either a spreadsheet or fancier: code-under-html and make an anybody-can-do-it tool to calculate these things.

Tripling of $/kWh? That would sing in a different key for the US solar market if (when?) it happens here

 

[Hedges]

Tripling of $/kWh? That would sing in a different key for the US solar market if (when?) it happens here

Oh, it has happened here all right. And PG&E is singing in a higher octave. Because we did solar in response.

California Members: NEM3.0 impact on NEM1/2 customers and what to do?

[EDIT 1/8/23: since the Final Decision that the CPUC approved last month was very different than their Preliminary Decision from December 2021 when I started this thread, much/most of the information in this post as well as the early pages of this thread are now outdated and incorrect. Rather...

diysolarforum.com

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

If he bought half then and then some more, he will be fine. Metals are insurance against hyperinflation if it ever comes. The way things are going, it just might.

Most of the inflation we're seeing is in the price of gasoline so far. I have a 2020 Bolt on lease that's costing about $.02 a mile to drive since I'm averaging over 4.5 miles per kw and I'm charging it with the 16oz. of silver I keep on my roof. Gasoline can hit $6 a gallon and I don't care.

 

[wattmatters]

No takers on this?

3000 cycles = $0.0757 6000 cycles = $0.03785

Cost per cycle isn't a particularly good measure, IMO.

Actual energy throughput over the battery's expected period of use is the metric to be dividing the cost by.

How long a period one uses a battery is going to depend on each use case.
But for instance, let's say we look at a decade. It might be longer, it might be shorter.

32 x 280Ah cells is approx 28kWh. If this is off-grid and capacity utilisation averages, say 40%, then
over 10 years the cost per kWh = $6,132 / (28kWh * 365.25 days/year * 10 years * 40% utilisation)
= 15c/kWh

40% utilisation might be high, depends on how much battery you need to cover for periods of low insolation. Lower utilisation increases the c/kWh.

Now add the generation cost, redundancy costs, maintenance/upkeep costs....

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Most of the inflation we're seeing is in the price of gasoline so far.

Have you been to the grocery store? Bought copper wire?
Replaced a water heater?
Bought insulation?

Gas is cheap by comparison

 

[eXodus]

Tripling of $/kWh? That would sing in a different key for the US solar market if (when?) it happens here

Florida kWH is going up by 20% or more this year alone.

Most of the inflation we're seeing is in the price of gasoline so far

all products of your daily life use energy to show up at your door or store.

I've used to work in Energy Economics: Our Motto was: All cost Are Energy cost.

It just takes time for an increase in Energy cost to trickle through. There is a lag time involved.
Your grocery store lighting and cooling cost went up. That trickles through faster
The Grocery store employees power bill went up - that will take a little longer.

Energy cost are a key indicator for coming inflation.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

Have you been to the grocery store? Bought copper wire?
Replaced a water heater?
Bought insulation?

Gas is cheap by comparison

Been to the parking lot of a grocery store but that's about as close as I've gotten in almost 2 years. Meat prices haven't gone up at the butcher shop we use? Ass-wipe paper prices have fluctuated but I'm still managing to get that by the case at the same price as 3 years ago. That only happens once every 8 months or so. I maintain the same water heater that came with my shack 40 years ago...fiberglass lined tank and all.
But yer right that was pretty dumb.