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Batteries going completely dead overnight.

glennjr1

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Marion, NY
Rich Solar 200 AH batteries completely discharged over night with no load on inverter. 2 battery bank and only .5 volts in the bank in the morning. Sungold 4000W pure sine wave charger inverter and Flexmax 80A charge controller. Has been very little sunlight the past few days (Northeast), but there was absolutely no load on the inverter.
 
Sounds like a BMS shutdown due to low voltage (only takes 1 cell to do it), this would be why you only see 0.5V. Not sure about Rich Solar but usually if you apply a good charge voltage, the BMS should allow charging to happen.
 
Thanks for the reply, Steve. Everything was off. Charge controller & charger inverter. The last time I checked it the voltage was 12.3 volts. I hooked my jumper pack to it and everything came alive. Turned on the shore power (grid) and it is charging. Aren't these lithium batteries supposed to be charged to 14.4 volts? I've never seen over 13.4 volts from this charger, I got the system up and running late in the season, so I haven't seen over 13.2 volts out of the charge controller and maybe 25 AMPS.
 
LFP: 13.6V for a "12V" 4S battery pack is 3.400 Volts per cell (which is the top of the Working Voltage range). The highest to charge to would be 3.5Vpc or 14.0V, as there is absolutely nothing to gain by attempting to charge higher which would most likely cause 1 or more cells to trigger OVP disconnect.
If they used standard 100AH cells, the battery should be able to take 50A charge for 2 hrs max from 0% SOC. This also depends on the BMS they use of course, which isn't likely to be a smartBMS with advanced functions or capabilities.

Have a look here & the Update attached as well. It will help you.
General LiFePO4 (LFP) Voltage to SOC charts/tables 12/24/48V
 
Thanks for the reply, Steve. Everything was off. Charge controller & charger inverter. The last time I checked it the voltage was 12.3 volts. I hooked my jumper pack to it and everything came alive. Turned on the shore power (grid) and it is charging. Aren't these lithium batteries supposed to be charged to 14.4 volts? I've never seen over 13.4 volts from this charger, I got the system up and running late in the season, so I haven't seen over 13.2 volts out of the charge controller and maybe 25 AMPS.

In addition to @Steve_S excellent reply, keep in mind that if you do charge to say 14.0V, within minutes of the charge cycle completing, the battery’s voltage will drop to 13.2-13.4v. It won’t stay at 14.0V. So unless you happen to be right there near the end of the charge cycle, you’ll miss seeing how high it charged to. This is one reason why a battery monitor, while not necessary, can be helpful (I don’t use one as my system is for our camp trailer.)
 
Thank you for the information. All of this is relatively new to me and it looks like there is a huge learning curve.
 
Since you mentioned shore power that implies this is in an rv. RV converters for the most part do a poor job charging batteries and unless it was special order are not set up to charge lithium batteries. For any solar set up rule of thumb is battery bank should be big enough to last for your usage for 3 days without recharging. Progressive Dynamics makes a replacement charger for lithium batteries. WFCO supposedly has one also but I personally haven't had good experience with them.
 
Scrubjaysnest,
Thanks for the information, but this system isn't in an RV. It is just a system that isn't grid tied. I am using grid power to power the charger built into the inverter. I didn't have the grid power activated for several days because the weather has been really cloudy up here in the Northeast (near Rochester, NY) and I discovered this morning that the inverter draws 5.85 AMPS without any load on it and I presume it could flatten the batteries over several days. For now, the only load on the inverter is when I have the lights on in my shop and they only draw about 2 amps. When that is coupled with the idle amperage it definitely will flatten batteries over an extended period. Now I guess I have to leave the grid power on. Until we get some clearer weather.
 
I discovered this morning that the inverter draws 5.85 AMPS without any load on it and I presume it could flatten the batteries over several days.

Wow that seems really high for idle draw. 5.85A x 12V = 70.2W x 24h = 1684 Wh per day, which is more than half your battery bank. So if the sun isn’t shining much, yeah that’ll drain them quick, without any loads. Did you get 5.85 using a multimeter? What does the spec sheet say idle draw should be?

Edit: oops I now see you have a 12v system. So I fixed the math above.
 
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Rich Solar 200 AH batteries completely discharged over night with no load on inverter. 2 battery bank and only .5 volts in the bank in the morning. Sungold 4000W pure sine wave charger inverter and Flexmax 80A charge controller. Has been very little sunlight the past few days (Northeast), but there was absolutely no load on the inverter.
4000W inverter will have a high standby consumption. Switch it off when not in use and consider a more efficient option if you dont really need 4000W. Not really practical at 12V anyway
 
Yeah, I discovered that this morning 5.85 AMPS to be exact. I am going to leave the grid power on for the charger. Maybe we'll get some decent weather here and it won't have to charge the batteries. Thanks for the info. :)>))))
 
Wow that seems really high for idle draw. 5.85A x 48V = 280.8W x 24h = 6739 Wh per day. So if the sun isn’t shining much, yeah that’ll drain them quick. Did you get 5.85 using a multimeter? What does the spec sheet say idle draw should be?
I got the current draw using a clamp meter and it seems to be accurate when using it when checking known current draws. This isn't a 48-volt system. It's 12 volts but, that's another story. I guess that is what you get when you buy a "complete" system from a company that seems to be nothing more than drop shippers and have absolutely no technical support, say to nothing about knowledge about the products they are selling. Going to be a really slow learning curve here but, I will get through it. I appreciate all the help I am getting on this forum.
 
Any practical suggestions?? :)>)))

What are your loads? For the record, I doubt your 200Ah (got a link the specific model?) can actually provide 4000W of power. If for example, your loads never exceed 1900W except for surges, then you might be able to squeeze by with a 2000W inverter.

If I were in your shoes, if your loads were about 2000W, I’d just go for a Victron Multiplus 12/3000. It’s 3000VA which equates to something like 2500-2700 watts. It has a built in charger too, so you can sell whatever you have now.

Don’t worry, many of us took the marketing bait and have had to re-purchase all over again!
 
I have 2 of the batteries. As far as load goes at the present time it is minimal at best, just a few LED lights in my shop and charging battery power tools etc; The only thing I am concerned about are my freezers and refrigerator in an extended power outage. I am not grid tied with the solar or my standby generator. For the generator I am using a manual transfer switch for selected circuits. The batteries are Rich Solar 200 AH wired in parallel. Thanks for your input, it's greatly appreciated. My personal finances are about tapped out for the moment as I am retired, living on a fixed income. And I see the COLA for Social Security is going to be about 3.2% this year due to inflation. What @#%&** planet do they live on??
 
I have 2 of the batteries. As far as load goes at the present time it is minimal at best, just a few LED lights in my shop and charging battery power tools etc; The only thing I am concerned about are my freezers and refrigerator in an extended power outage. I am not grid tied with the solar or my standby generator. For the generator I am using a manual transfer switch for selected circuits. The batteries are Rich Solar 200 AH wired in parallel. Thanks for your input, it's greatly appreciated. My personal finances are about tapped out for the moment as I am retired, living on a fixed income. And I see the COLA for Social Security is going to be about 3.2% this year due to inflation. What @#%&** planet do they live on??

Ok so I looked up your batteries. They each can provide up to 200A of draw, so 400A total, which is enough to cover your 4000W inverter.

But according to your actual needs, you need way less than that. I'm guessing on some of these numbers, so take this as a back of the napkin estimate:

4 LED shop lights, 88W = 352W total
4 charging stations of power tools, 65W = 259W
2 7cf chest freezers, 202W = 404W (consider the startup surge would be significantly higher, about 10x)
1 15cf fridge, 100-400W (unless its old, then up to 800W)

Grand total of all that, if all plugged in and running at the exact same time would be = 1415W

That's a LOT lower than 4000W. You don't need that much inverter. The "cost" of having such an inverter is in the idle draw as you found out. I found that out, too, sold my inverter and bought a new one.

The Victron Multiplus 12/3000 I mentioned is more than you need, but they don't make a 1500 or 2000W version for the North American market, not yet anyways. The idle draw is only 20W and if you setup the ECO mode (aka search mode), it's as low as 8W). I setup my Victron inverter for ECO mode and it works wonderfully. I was using 24W idle draw on my old inverter and now I use about 3-4W. Batteries are expensive and even then I didn't have room for any more batteries (or panels) in my case, so a more efficient inverter was the answer. No regrets.

Not sure what you paid for your Rich Solar batteries, but I see they are "on sale" (I think the 'sale' is perpetual?) for $999. What a rip-off and I'm sorry you got suckered by that. You can get quality batteries of that size for $700 or less these days.

As for COL increases, tell me about it. I'm a health care provider and had to stop taking health insurance recently because there has not been a cost of living increase for my profession since 1993. And I didn't get payment on everything either, sometimes they found some technical bit (like a lawyer might do) that allows them to not pay and it was cheaper to let the money go than spend the hours on the phone and fax trying to get that $38.50 they owed me. I couldn't support my family on that and I regret not being able to help people who can't afford to pay out of pocket, but I've told them all to go talk to their HR managers and insurance companies and the State Insurance commissioner.
 
Holy s($* batman! I paid $730 for this battery just in May of this year. Yesterday I saw for as low as $640, additional $20 coupon made it $620. Now it's $590!!

It's been an excellent battery - equivalent to yours except made by a known reputable lifepo4 battery manufacturer and also comes with Bluetooth functionality. Which you might think you don't care about, that is until your battery will eventually (and it will) start to become internally out of balance. The BT app can show you just how far out of balance the battery is and when you apply special charging techniques, you can track how quickly (or slowly as it usually is) the balancing function is working.

My guess on why the big price drop, besides the holidays in the USA, is the USA just announced they would only be sourcing lithium for EV's on US soil. That's a big bite to China, so they are lowering their prices significantly in turn. Seems that Rich Solar (another Chinese company like Roypow that makes the PowerUrus linked below) hasn't gotten on the bandwagon yet.


I wouldn't get rid of your Rich Solar batteries, but like me, you are learning there are good people here on this forum that can help you from making the same mistakes again.
 
I would set up one or two DC circuits with fuses, switches and a couple of lights in the shop so you can turn off the inverter when you aren't in there. Put one switch right next to the door so you can have light when you walk in. Then turn on the inverter when you need it. That would extend the life of your batteries, especially when solar isn't cooperating.
 
Wow that seems really high for idle draw. 5.85A x 12V = 70.2W x 24h = 1684 Wh per day, which is more than half your battery bank. So if the sun isn’t shining much, yeah that’ll drain them quick, without any loads. Did you get 5.85 using a multimeter? What does the spec sheet say idle draw should be?

Edit: oops I now see you have a 12v system. So I fixed the math above.
I just discovered when the inverter is in power save mode the amperage draw is only 2.08 amps. I wonder what drawbacks that has ?
 
I just discovered when the inverter is in power save mode the amperage draw is only 2.08 amps. I wonder what drawbacks that has ?
24W is still quite a high standby figure. I wonder if its doing anything different or just a fake feature. Victron inverter goes down to 1-2W in eco mode.
 
This is the difference between tier 1 products and some of the cheaper ones. Check your specifications sheet and it will give you approximately the watt draw for each. Victron is one of the lowest. Just remember a less expensive inverter is less expensive for a reason. You will spend more in batteries, panels etc. I don't know that it's a break even you will need to decide for yourself.
 
This is the difference between tier 1 products and some of the cheaper ones. Check your specifications sheet and it will give you approximately the watt draw for each. Victron is one of the lowest. Just remember a less expensive inverter is less expensive for a reason. You will spend more in batteries, panels etc. I don't know that it's a break even you will need to decide for yourself.

@glennjr1 THIS!!

I wasted over $1000 on cheap batteries and a cheap inverter to finally learn this lesson.

I switched to a Victron inverter and a cheap-ish LiFePO4 battery and my problems were solved. I think had I had the Victron inverter in the first place, the cheap batteries would've lasted longer. But because my cheap inverter were sucking juice from the cheap AGM batteries (which do not like to be deeply discharged) 24/7, the batteries got damaged fast (that and not enough sun). Batteries should've lasted 3-5 years but I got 1 year out of each set of two batteries (did I say they were cheap?)
 
I just discovered when the inverter is in power save mode the amperage draw is only 2.08 amps. I wonder what drawbacks that has ?

You would have to look in the user manual to find out.

Some inverters have a type of "eco mode" (called by different names, perhaps 'power save' is one of them).

How the eco mode works on my Victron (may not be the same as yours): Most of the time, the inverter is asleep, meaning it's still awake enough to be powered, but the electrical outlet or load panel will be dead (no power). Mine is set to check every 60 seconds to see if a device wants power and it provides such power for 5 seconds. When the fridge wants to kick on (it has a mechanical thermostat, so it works in this case since electricity isn't required), it might have to wait up to 60s before the inverter provides that power. Once the power starts flowing, then the inverter will remain on for as long it is being asked to provide power. So if the fridge shuts off after reaching temperature, the inverter will quickly go back to asleep. Rinse and repeat.

The Victron has more eco mode settings, too, such as, the load required to wake up needs to be X number of watts. I have mine set to 10W, because we don't have anything on that circuit that's less than 10W. If the fridge is off (inverter asleep) and my wife plugs in her laptop AC charger (too cheap to buy the DC ones) which draws about 50W, she might have to wait 60s before it will start charging her laptop. Since it's above the 10W threshold, it will continue to charge her laptop even if the fridge never kicks on.

If that sounds complicated, it is and it isn't. It was a game changer for us.

We went to spending 50% of our usable daily battery power JUST to power the cheap inverter to now spending 13%. That's a combination of how much more efficient the Victron inverter is and switching from lead-acid to lithium batteries (lead acid, at least cheap lead acid like what I had can't be discharged below 50% or else damage happens.)
 

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