Can Solar & Wind Fix Everything (e.g., Climate Change) with a battery break-through?

[grizzzman]

Very interesting article on Information control, censorship and fact checkers.
Nothing particularly new to those of us who have been paying attention, but nicely summarized with "official" links to those just waking up from the matrix.

Report on the Censorship-Industrial Complex: The Top 50 Organizations to Know

The citizen's starter kit to understanding the new global information cartel

www.racket.news

The “Censorship-Industrial Complex” is just the Military-Industrial Complex reborn for the “hybrid warfare” age.

"Much like the war industry, pleased to call itself the “defense” sector, the “anti-disinformation” complex markets itself as merely defensive, designed to fend off the hostile attacks of foreign cyber-adversaries who unlike us have “military limitations.” The CIC, however, is neither wholly about defense, nor even mostly focused on foreign “disinformation.” It’s become instead a relentless, unified messaging system aimed primarily at domestic populations, who are told that political discord at home aids the enemy’s undeclared hybrid assault on democracy.

They suggest we must rethink old conceptions about rights, and give ourselves over to new surveillance techniques like “toxicity monitoring,” replace the musty old free press with editors claiming a “nose for news” with an updated model that uses automated assignment tools like “newsworthy claim extraction,” and submit to frank thought-policing mechanisms like the “redirect method,” which sends ads at online browsers of dangerous content, pushing them toward “constructive alternative messages.”

Binding all this is a commitment to a new homogeneous politics, which the complex of public and private agencies listed below seeks to capture in something like a Unified Field Theory of neoliberal narrative, which can be perpetually tweaked and amplified online via algorithm and machine learning. This is what some of the organizations on this list mean when they talk about coming up with a “shared vocabulary” of information disorder, or “credibility,” or “media literacy.”

This looks like it came from the World Economic Forum. It would be entrusting to see if the authors were involved with them.

 

[MurphyGuy]

But how much frost does it get when the kids leave the doors open??

I don't understand that question. Leave door open to a Harvest Right Freeze Dryer?

Think global warming, in a few years your lakes will have crocodiles and the frost line will be a thing Alaskans talk about ... ; -)
If your family is big enough, you could put the pipes over the leech field, those are exothermic reactions and deep enough to not freeze. ; -)

Can't comment on this, would need to do a bunch of math I'm not inclined to do.

Let's see, a gallon weighs about 8.34 lbs, 1 BTU per degree per pound. So, a 20k gallon pond (about the size of an average pool) that started about 60F would have a thermal capacity of 20k x 8.34 x (60-32) /12k BTUs/Ton) = ~400 tons of heat.

Well, that doesn't include the energy available to freeze the pond solid. That's about 144 BTU/lb, so to freeze it solid would be another 20k x 8.34 x 144 / 12k ~= 2000 tons.

You'd need to know the maximum coldest duration and thickest natural ice depth to properly calculate a pond size.

That's a good start, but your 60F number assumes the water at the bottom is quite warm and is going to stay that way without influence. The reality is that even for a pond that doesn't freeze to the bottom, the water at the bottom is going to be just a bit over freezing itself.

Remember, the heat pumps cools the water, it doesn't warm it up.. Replacement heat has to come from somewhere or the water freezes.

Dang, how cold are you planning on running the evaporation? I thought the prime reason to bury it was that you could use a higher evaporation temperature (40ish) and gain better efficiencies. Over a large surface area buried at the appropriate depth the temperature should be readily stable and readily conducted by ground water.

It doesn't matter. This part is simple.. every bit of energy you are transporting into the home will come from the pipes in the ground or pond. As the energy is moved into the home, the energy in the area around those pipes will be removed and MUST be replaced or it freezes.

It's not the coolant or refrigerant that freezes.. the pipes will still move the liquid inside them.. but they won't transport any more energy because the ice around them will insulate the pipes.

I don't know how much pond would be needed to warm the average house in a northern climate, but I suspect you'd need at least a 12 foot deep pond with a 1/4 to 1/2 acre surface area. And there further north one goes, the larger and deeper the pond would need to be.

Of course, there are a lot of caveats to this.. a pond with a strong natural spring would support more energy transfer than one without a natural spring.. Even the soil conditions that make up the pond would play a part if the numbers were close enough.

And for a disclaimer: Damn it Jim, I'm an electrical engineer, not a geothermal engineer! (only Star Trek fans will understand that)

The laws of physics don't change based on the subject matter, but I'm not familiar enough with the variables to provide solid answers.. What I do know is that there have been a lot of incidences in the early days where geothermal systems have frozen up due to poor conduction, not enough ground loop, or other similar problems. I'm sure they have that stuff straightened out these days, but the message is that you would have to consult with someone who does this for a living because it's not a straight numbers game.

Geothermal is a very different animal than something like requiring solar panels on a house. Mandating geothermal would be an absolute nightmare of red tape, engineering problems, cost, etc.

For reference: A friend of mine in mid-Michigan has a 2800sqft home. His geothermal was 12 feet down and something like 2400 feet of pipe laid into the ground in loops and layers. His system was about $30,000 back around 2007 or so.

Nonsense, Engineers love a challenge. In fact, without a problem, they'll frequently invent new problems (paraphrasing Douglas Adams).

 

[Checkthisout]

Yeah. That's what many don't understand about the northern U.S.

The cold. It gets cold and it gets cold down deep. A pond in the winter would be worse than just burying it in the ground.

Unless just huge and deep, you would ruin the thermocline by introducing cold to the bottom of the bottom of the pond and the whole thing would freeze solid. Remember they get into negative temps for days.

And also, I mean you do all that shit and then start thinking.....its just easier to put a gas furnace in or electrical or heat with wood or pellets.

 

[Hedges]

Sometimes, freezing the ground is the objective.

Explainer: Wall of ice at Fukushima's crippled nuclear plant

The operator of Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear power plant said this month that two storage tanks had leaked about four tonnes of coolant solution used to create an ice wall that prevented groundwater from seeping in.

www.reuters.com

 

[LeoThomson]

You ought to be in California government ?

You do know that the price of land is depended on the ability for buyers to pay for that land, right? (If you don't, you shouldn't be in any government)

 

[MurphyGuy]

You do know that the price of land is depended on the ability for buyers to pay for that land, right? (If you don't, you shouldn't be in any government)

That's a statement with a lot of argument built in because its both true and false at the same time.

 

[LeoThomson]

That's a statement with a lot of argument built in because its both true and false at the same time.

The reverse is true as well and maybe easier to grasp for Americans. There are countries that gave government subsidies to first time buyers of homes and the net result was that the price for land homes were build on went up.

 

[LeoThomson]

And to complicate the issue, geothermal doesn't work everywhere equally. Different soil conditions, weather, and geology, would make it very cumbersome...

The engineering for a geothermal system for a house built on rock is going to be very different than for a house built on clay, and different again for a house on sand.. The moisture level in the soil plays a big part in how much loop you need.. how deep you need to go, etc. It's not as simple as "Dig a 50 foot trench and put the poly pipe in".

You are right, drilling vertically can be done and while you don't have to go down that deep, but it would be costly. Those places would drop in price even more, just like land prices drop when there is no access to services.

 

[MurphyGuy]

The reverse is true as well and maybe easier to grasp for Americans. There are countries that gave government subsidies to first time buyers of homes and the net result was that the price for land homes were build on went up.

Yup.. all kinds of things affect land prices.. so many that it's hard to account for them all.

Here in the USA, we have a new phenomenon.. Sucker fishing... People asking too much money for things hoping to find a sucker.. then a legit seller comes along, researches prices, sees the sucker fishers and bases their price on same.

 

[LeoThomson]

But China does not implement all the clean coal tech we developed, and they are building two new plants every week( at least according to that far right org NPR? ).

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/02/1160441919/china-is-building-six-times-more-new-coal-plants-than-other-countries-report-fin

China also added a record 125 gigawatts of new solar and wind energy capacity, more than the U.S., Europe and India combined. The country says it aims to build another 160 gigawatts of solar and wind energy capacity in 2023.

If all goes to plan, this renewable power would relegate coal plants to backup status, meaning they would run well below capacity and add less to emissions than the headline number may suggest.

China’s Coal Use Is Rising, but Emissions Might Not Follow

Some climate analysts say the country’s emissions may have gone down in 2022 despite a larger-than-expected increase in coal consumption, and might continue to drop.

www.wsj.com

 

[Sanwizard]

Very interesting article on Information control, censorship and fact checkers.
Nothing particularly new to those of us who have been paying attention, but nicely summarized with "official" links to those just waking up from the matrix.

Report on the Censorship-Industrial Complex: The Top 50 Organizations to Know

The citizen's starter kit to understanding the new global information cartel

www.racket.news

The “Censorship-Industrial Complex” is just the Military-Industrial Complex reborn for the “hybrid warfare” age.

"Much like the war industry, pleased to call itself the “defense” sector, the “anti-disinformation” complex markets itself as merely defensive, designed to fend off the hostile attacks of foreign cyber-adversaries who unlike us have “military limitations.” The CIC, however, is neither wholly about defense, nor even mostly focused on foreign “disinformation.” It’s become instead a relentless, unified messaging system aimed primarily at domestic populations, who are told that political discord at home aids the enemy’s undeclared hybrid assault on democracy.

They suggest we must rethink old conceptions about rights, and give ourselves over to new surveillance techniques like “toxicity monitoring,” replace the musty old free press with editors claiming a “nose for news” with an updated model that uses automated assignment tools like “newsworthy claim extraction,” and submit to frank thought-policing mechanisms like the “redirect method,” which sends ads at online browsers of dangerous content, pushing them toward “constructive alternative messages.”

Binding all this is a commitment to a new homogeneous politics, which the complex of public and private agencies listed below seeks to capture in something like a Unified Field Theory of neoliberal narrative, which can be perpetually tweaked and amplified online via algorithm and machine learning. This is what some of the organizations on this list mean when they talk about coming up with a “shared vocabulary” of information disorder, or “credibility,” or “media literacy.”

Rush Limbaugh used to put together the days news narrative from the newscasters at ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, PBS, NPR, Washington Post, NY Times, LA TIMES, ETC..... They all used almost the exact same sentences, as if the days "narrative" was distributed from a central news cabal.
Also, that diagram looks like a Glenn Beck whiteboard discussion from back when he was on CNN.

 

[LeoThomson]

And there we go again, full conspiracy nutter territory, always the same people...

 

[Sanwizard]

And there we go again, full conspiracy nutter territory, always the same people...

Here is a sample:

Journalists, Dems Use Identical Talking Points on Impeachment

To read the full article, visit NewsBusters. Television journalists these days sound so similar to Democrats on impeachment that it's nearly impossible to tell them apart. Weeks before the impeachment inquiry was even announced, talking heads were passing off Democratic talking points as...

www.mrctv.org

 

[LeoThomson]

Here is a sample:

Journalists, Dems Use Identical Talking Points on Impeachment

To read the full article, visit NewsBusters. Television journalists these days sound so similar to Democrats on impeachment that it's nearly impossible to tell them apart. Weeks before the impeachment inquiry was even announced, talking heads were passing off Democratic talking points as...

www.mrctv.org

Thank you for providing a source to prove my point.

Media Research Center (MRC) - Bias and Credibility

RIGHT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

 

[MurphyGuy]

Here is a sample:

Journalists, Dems Use Identical Talking Points on Impeachment

To read the full article, visit NewsBusters. Television journalists these days sound so similar to Democrats on impeachment that it's nearly impossible to tell them apart. Weeks before the impeachment inquiry was even announced, talking heads were passing off Democratic talking points as...

www.mrctv.org

You should really, and I can't stress this enough, REALLY do research on the websites you post before posting them.

Find out who owns them, who supports them.

These quack-a-doodle websites are nothing but propaganda machines funded by wealthy people to secure their status and financing. These types of websites are not capable of supporting themselves like regular news media are and so they need a sort of welfare money donations from others.
Talk about follow the money! Do you think you'd get good climate or science information from a website funded by Exxon Mobile?

Please check your sources, you're being played. It only takes a minute..

 

[Sanwizard]

You should really, and I can't stress this enough, REALLY do research on the websites you post before posting them.

Find out who owns them, who supports them.

These quack-a-doodle websites are nothing but propaganda machines funded by wealthy people to secure their status and financing. These types of websites are not capable of supporting themselves like regular news media are and so they need a sort of welfare money donations from others.
Talk about follow the money! Do you think you'd get good climate or science information from a website funded by Exxon Mobile?

Please check your sources, you're being played. It only takes a minute..

Good point, but in this case, the source did not matter. It is the underlying clips that show the media colluding together to assure the same narrative is had by all. They could at least vary the catch phrases they use for the same subject, so its not so obvious.

I traveled quite a bit in my previous position (six days a week, different state each day), so I had a lot of time to review the news across the country, and especially in airports. I can confirm via personal experience what the video showed on the news stations, across both TV and radio, and even newspapers around the country. (USA today was the paper most hotels handed out) Quite sad really, how totally un or mis-informed much of the population is.

 

[Sanwizard]

Good point, but in this case, the source did not matter. It is the underlying clips that show the media colluding together to assure the same narrative is had by all. They could at least vary the catch phrases they use for the same subject, so its not so obvious.

I traveled quite a bit in my previous position (six days a week, different state each day), so I had a lot of time to review the news across the country, and especially in airports. I can confirm via personal experience what the video showed on the news stations, across both TV and radio, and even newspapers around the country. (USA today was the paper most hotels handed out) Quite sad really, how totally un or mis-informed much of the population is.

A good example is today. Congress has bank record proof, along with confirmed whistle blower testimony, (and all the emails in hunters laptop) that Joe Biden sold out his office to the highest bidder, and is a traitor to his country, with his whole family, including grandkids getting checks from our enemies around the world, and 99% of the news media is talking about a new hispanic congressman from long island, and some lady who accused Trump with no proof and no witnesses, from 40 YEARS AGO, in a total kangaroo court in NYC.
The biden crime family story was squashed today. What would be the coverage if they had all that evidence on Trump?
Sad times.

 

[bradbill]

A good example is today. Congress has bank record proof, along with confirmed whistle blower testimony, (and all the emails in hunters laptop) that Joe Biden sold out his office to the highest bidder, and is a traitor to his country, with his whole family, including grandkids getting checks from our enemies around the world, and 99% of the news media is talking about a new hispanic congressman from long island, and some lady who accused Trump with no proof and no witnesses, from 40 YEARS AGO, in a total kangaroo court in NYC.
The biden crime family story was squashed today. What would be the coverage if they had all that evidence on Trump?
Sad times.

LOL...today Comer was asked by a reporter, at his news conference, if he has evidence linking Joe Biden to anything illegal...Comer said he didn't.

Even Ron Johnson admitted today there wasn't as well!

You are just a fucking moron just like all the other tRump Chucklefucks!

It's only beginning for tRump..Jack Smith is going to totally fuck Trump and probably the first person whoever fucked tRump that actually enjoys it.

 

[aenyc]

Net Zero grid batteries alone would bankrupt America

Senate Budget Committee chairman Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) cites

www.americanthinker.com

You know the entire climate change is complete hoax when you hear stuff like this. You cant make this up if you tried

Democrat Rep. Claims Climate Change is Root Cause of Illegal Immigration

RealAmericasVoice LOL: Democrat Representative Pete Aguilar claims CLIMATE CHANGE is the root cause of illegal immigration. ???#BorderInvasion #title42 #BidenBorderCrisis #bordercrisis @RealMiranda…

wattsupwiththat.com

 

[MurphyGuy]

LOL...today Comer was asked by a reporter, at his news conference, if he has evidence linking Joe Biden to anything illegal...Comer said he didn't.

Even Ron Johnson admitted today there wasn't as well!

You are just a fucking moron just like all the other tRump Chucklefucks!

It's only beginning for tRump..Jack Smith is going to totally fuck Trump and probably the first person whoever fucked tRump that actually enjoys it.

Chucklefucks? That's a new one.. good one too.

Mind if I borrow that from time to time?

 

[klystron]

You are just a fucking moron just like all the other tRump Chucklefucks

You can always count on Brad to lower the conversation level to teenager. Keep in mind that this comes from an upper level corporate executive... supposedly.

Trump had and still has issues, no question, and it was hard to listen to his speeches which were often full of cringe-worthy moments. That said, the current guy is perhaps two functioning neurons away from a drool cup, and often rises to the same level of embarrassment on the world stage.

Meanwhile, it appears that the US is about to be invaded by historic numbers of illegal "immigrants" which makes one wonder why we are doing this to ourselves because it makes no sense at all to sit by and watch it happen.

 

[aenyc]

Manufacturing "Hate"....
People must realize that the real enemy is the parasite class that pretends to rule over them

Zerohedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[bradbill]

You can always count on Brad to lower the conversation level to teenager. Keep in mind that this comes from an upper level corporate executive... supposedly.

Trump had and still has issues, no question, and it was hard to listen to his speeches which were often full of cringe-worthy moments. That said, the current guy is perhaps two functioning neurons away from a drool cup, and often rises to the same level of embarrassment on the world stage.

Meanwhile, it appears that the US is about to be invaded by historic numbers of illegal "immigrants" which makes one wonder why we are doing this to ourselves because it makes no sense at all to sit by and watch it happen.

So...current admin was sending 1,500 troops to the border and the Rebublicans start howling.

This is idiot Lindsey Graham's response:


Sanwizard is a moron...he is an advocate for civil war. I will call out that moron every day when he says stupid conspiracy shit.

I will take a 200 year old Biden before tRump is ever let near the Whitehouse again.

 

[svetz]

EPA Proposes New Carbon Pollution Standards for Fossil Fuel-Fired Power Plants​

New proposed standards for coal and new natural gas fired power plants would avoid more than 600 million metric tons of CO2 pollution, while also preventing 300,000 asthma attacks and 1,300 premature deaths in 2030 alone

Biden backs Manchin’s fossil fuel plan​

The White House on Wednesday endorsed a plan by Sen. Joe Manchin to speed the approval of some fossil fuel projects in order to also hasten the construction of new transmission lines critical for meeting President Joe Biden’s climate goals.

Manchin's Plan​

$6.6 billion Mountain Valley Pipeline to take natural gas between West Virginia, Manchin's home state, and Virginia.

Ironically, it sounds like the money is coming out of the$369 billion that was voted to reduce emissions. The pipeline is expected to deliver more than two billion cubic feet of natural gas per day.

What a waste. Considering how long it will take to build and how soon before we're supposed to stop burning fossil fuels I wonder if the money could have been better spent.

I wonder how that will play out with Virginia's energy plan and VECA:

Under the VCEA, Virginia is legally required to retire all baseload generation, except for incumbent nuclear power plants,

Math Quiz: Just how much Natural Gas does Virginia need?​

Natural gas–0.14 kWh/cubic foot and in January this year was $7.40/thousand cubic feet.

Currently, Virginia consumes 7.2 GWh/d of electricity (ref) for a retail price of $0.0914, there are no daily news articles about them running out of power, so not sure what the crisis is. Possibly the offset needed is something like 10% that they're importing from other states? (And if they're successfully importing it already, why do they need more?)

At full capacity of 2 billion cuft/d, the pipeline can provide 2,000,000,000 x 0.14 kWh = 280,000,000 KWh, or 280 GWh/d.
Obviously, at 38x the current consumption, the pipeline seems a tad oversized. I know you all like conspiracy theories, so here's one....Want to bet the pipeline terminates at the seaports so natural gas can be shipped and sold to foreign countries? That is, it really is a plan for companies to make money rather than help the power-starved Virginians at the taxpayer's expense?

Math Quiz: Would solar & ESS have been better?​

Let's say the number is 10% for the sake of the math, since we'll cost out gas and solar the ratio difference would be the same and so ultimately the exact amount doesn't matter.

Solar w/50% ESS
At 10%, Virginia would need an additional 720 MWh/d. The average insolation of Virginia is 4.5, so 720MWh / 4.5 = ~160MW of panels.
Let's assume commercial solar installed goes at the national rate of $1/W, so $160M, or with a 25-year life a cost of ~$17,500k/d.
Let's assume 50% of the power needs battery backup, at $300/kWh, that's 360,000,000Wh x $.3/Wh = $108,000,000, and if it lasts a decade teh daily cost is $29,589/d. Combine with solar for a daily cost of $47,089/d. Yes, CAES is viable in Virginia and if sodium batteries turn out to be real, or a dozen other things the price could be less per day, a lot less.

Gas
Now let's look at the cost of the gas... 720 MWh is 720,000,000Wh / 140w/cuft = 5.14 million cuft, or at $7.40/1000 cuft = $38,057/d
Pipelines have an expected lifespan of 50 years but also require a lot of maintenance. Let's ignore the maintenance costs and assume we'll be carbon neutral by 2050, giving the pipeline a 26 yr life. Then $6,600,000,000 / 365 / 26 = $700,000/d cost. A combined cost of $747,089/d.

 

[Sanwizard]

Ironically, it sounds like the money is coming out of the$369 billion that was voted to reduce emissions. The pipeline is expected to deliver more than two billion cubic feet of natural gas per day.

What a waste. Considering how long it will take to build and how soon before we're supposed to stop burning fossil fuels I wonder if the money could have been better spent.

I wonder how that will play out with Virginia's energy plan and VECA:

Math Quiz: Just how much Natural Gas does Virginia need?​

Natural gas–0.14 kWh/cubic foot and in January this year was $7.40/thousand cubic feet.

Currently, Virginia consumes 7.2 GWh/d of electricity (ref) for a retail price of $0.0914, there are no daily news articles about them running out of power, so not sure what the crisis is. Possibly the offset needed is something like 10% that they're importing from other states? (And if they're successfully importing it already, why do they need more?)

At full capacity of 2 billion cuft/d, the pipeline can provide 2,000,000,000 x 0.14 kWh = 280,000,000 KWh, or 280 GWh/d.
Obviously, at 38x the current consumption, the pipeline seems a tad oversized. I know you all like conspiracy theories, so here's one....Want to bet the pipeline terminates at the seaports so natural gas can be shipped and sold to foreign countries? That is, it really is a plan for companies to make money rather than help the power-starved Virginians at the taxpayer's expense?

Math Quiz: Would solar & ESS have been better?​

Let's say the number is 10% for the sake of the math, since we'll cost out gas and solar the ratio difference would be the same and so ultimately the exact amount doesn't matter.

Solar w/50% ESS
At 10%, Virginia would need an additional 720 MWh/d. The average insolation of Virginia is 4.5, so 720MWh / 4.5 = ~160MW of panels.
Let's assume commercial solar installed goes at the national rate of $1/W, so $160M, or with a 25-year life a cost of ~$17,500k/d.
Let's assume 50% of the power needs battery backup, at $300/kWh, that's 360,000,000Wh x $.3/Wh = $108,000,000, and if it lasts a decade teh daily cost is $29,589/d. Combine with solar for a daily cost of $47,089/d. Yes, CAES is viable in Virginia and if sodium batteries turn out to be real, or a dozen other things the price could be less per day, a lot less.

Gas
Now let's look at the cost of the gas... 720 MWh is 720,000,000Wh / 140w/cuft = 5.14 million cuft, or at $7.40/1000 cuft = $38,057/d
Pipelines have an expected lifespan of 50 years but also require a lot of maintenance. Let's ignore the maintenance costs and assume we'll be carbon neutral by 2050, giving the pipeline a 26 yr life. Then $6,600,000,000 / 365 / 26 = $700,000/d cost. A combined cost of $747,089/d.

The government should get out of the business all together, so only the utility companies take the gamble on what solution is the most cost effective for THEM. No public funds should be spent, so now the cost is $0 dollars.