Do We Need a Control Group?

[LeoThomson]

Now there is a pandemic killing thousands of vaccinated people around the world on a daily basis. And the vaccines were tested, deemed safe and found to be effective by multiple agencies around the world. Given those facts, might it not be foolish to take the vaccine? Then again the world will never run out of fools.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

United States: COVID-19 weekly death rate by vaccination status

Death rates are calculated as the number of deaths in each group, divided by the total number of people in this group. This is given per 100,000 people.

ourworldindata.org

 

[LeoThomson]

The moderators don't monitor the chit chat threads ..... the trolls know that. Ignoring them works for me.

So you are seriously stupid, not just pretending?

 

[Checkthisout]

Yes, 2 people I knew died from it, one was 80, which is a high risk group, the other was 49, he was relatively fit for his age considering he was a carpenter. Sister in law, 45 years old caught it before the vaccines were available and was in an induced coma for months, it was a miracle she survived, she was on supplemental oxygen for a year.

That's a lot. I knew one seemingly healthy 45 year old (alpha strain) and my ancient aunt (98 years old and in a nursing home for 3 years) (delta).

Another 70 year old aunt was hospitalized.

That's it.

 

[Checkthisout]

So you are seriously stupid, not just pretending?

Come on. We're grown men here.

 

[LeoThomson]

That's a lot. I knew one seemingly healthy 45 year old (alpha strain) and my ancient aunt (98 years old and in a nursing home for 3 years) (delta).

Another 70 year old aunt was hospitalized.

That's it.

Most people survive a covid infection, hospitals were overwhelmed at first. Which is why we had a lock down, the vaccines were developed, tested and when approved, given to the most vulnerable first. It allowed the lock-downs to be lifted and the numbers are manageable now. The vaccines were surprisingly good, but people, including the vaccinated, are still dying from covid, with a disproportionate number of unvaccinated to succumb to the illness.

What you and I experience is anecdotal evidence, while it might feel real to us, it is unwise to make policy based on that, what does matter is the overall numbers, which is why I posted the link.

United States: COVID-19 weekly death rate by vaccination status

Death rates are calculated as the number of deaths in each group, divided by the total number of people in this group. This is given per 100,000 people.

ourworldindata.org

I am not saying you or any one should get vaccinated, it would be better if we all did, but you have people here advocating against the vaccine, which is just stupid.

 

[LeoThomson]

Come on. We're grown men here.

Bob is not acting like one, he keeps pushing ivermectin, even though according to the manufacturer it doesn't work.

 

[Checkthisout]

I am not saying you or any one should get vaccinated, it would be better if we all did, but you have people here advocating against the vaccine, which is just stupid.

They are rallying against the Novel vaccine platform aka MRNA, not vaccines themselves.

They are upset at the exaggerated numbers of deaths falsely attributed to covid.

They are upset that the same people who made the disease are not punished but get to profit from the cure.

They are upset about mandates because the vaccines do not stop the spread.

They are upset about school closures that served no purpose.

They are upset that people don't call out things like still telling people to get vaccinated even though they already had the disease. Why doesn't that upset someone like you BTW?

They are mad at the inflation caused paying people and companies not to work and produce under the guise it would make the germs go away.

Ad nauseum.

 

[Hedges]

United States: COVID-19 weekly death rate by vaccination status

Death rates are calculated as the number of deaths in each group, divided by the total number of people in this group. This is given per 100,000 people.

ourworldindata.org

Similar ratio for Switzerland, about 5:1 unvaccinated vs. vaccinated. And further benefit of 2x .. 4x for boosted.

But interesting for Chile, "Vaccinated" and "Unvaccinated" death rate graphs are pretty similar.
Only "Boosted" shows protection from death.

How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?

To understand how the pandemic is evolving, it’s crucial to know how death rates from COVID-19 are affected by vaccination status.

ourworldindata.org

 

[LeoThomson]

More of a response to Leo but people think the government tests vaccines and drugs for safety.

They do not.

They have panels review trial data that the drug companies themselves have conducted and submitted data for.

The government agencies both monitor the trials and review the data.

 

[Checkthisout]

Bob is not acting like one, he keeps pushing ivermectin, even though according to the manufacturer it doesn't work.

Ok, so under what standard are you claiming the vaccine works but ivermectin does not?

 

[Checkthisout]

The government agencies both monitor the trials and review the data.

Monitoring consists of reading reports produced by the manufacturer.

 

[Hedges]

Most people survive a covid infection, hospitals were overwhelmed at first. Which is why we had a lock down, the vaccines were developed, tested and when approved, given to the most vulnerable first. It allowed the lock-downs to be lifted and the numbers are manageable now.

What you and I experience is anecdotal evidence, while it might feel real to us, it is unwise to make policy based on that, what does matter is the overall numbers, which is why I posted the link.

Simply ramping up N95 masks and saying, "Wear this indoors everywhere but home" would have given 80% or greater protection. Lowering the "R" from 1.x to 0.2, and allowing lockdowns to end rapidly.

I'm painfully aware of the unreliability of anecdotal evidence, and keep pushing back against it for the "other" big issue of the past few years.
Statistics tells truths, while anecdotes are used to sway people.

But I saw drastically different claims for the relative effectiveness of vaccination vs. infection-acquired immunity, between U.S. reports and what I saw elsewhere.

I also saw through the claims of anti-vaxxers, such as the death rates in VAERS. The number of deaths reported day of shot was the expected number for the age group getting vaccinated early on. The number reported day after deaths was already below expected death rate, and of course less and less each day after it.

The government agencies both monitor the trials and review the data.

And that is all they do with it?

 

[LeoThomson]

They are rallying against the Novel vaccine platform aka MRNA, not vaccines themselves.

Not true, there are other vaccienes available and approved.

They are upset at the exaggerated numbers of deaths falsely attributed to covid.

Nonsense, the numbers are out there. Of course you could argue that every death is essentially from a heart that sops beating.

They are upset that the same people who made the disease are not punished but get to profit from the cure.

No one made the virus, if some one had they would have produced evidence of that.

They are upset about mandates because the vaccines do not stop the spread.

Covid is in the animal population, it will continue to evolve and spread, the vaccines give you better odds at mild symptoms and surviving it.

They are upset about school closures that served no purpose.

The close proximity of kids makes the likelihood of spreading covid among them greater and they are taking the illness home. Kids should be in school, but they also need parents and grandparents.

They are upset that people don't call out things like still telling people to get vaccinated even though they already had the disease. Why doesn't that upset someone like you BTW?

Doctors are telling people to get vaccinated, my sister in law who nearly died from covid was vaccinated before she left the hospital. That doesn't upset me because the vaccines are safe.

They are mad at the inflation caused paying people and companies not to work and produce under the guise it would make the germs go away.

People are mad for all sorts of weird reasons, why do we give into them? It was not that long ago in the US people were upset because a black kid could go to the same school as white kids.

Ad nauseum.

What annoys me is that there are people who believe they know better than the fast majority of the experts despite the fact they had no formal training or experience in the subject.

 

[LeoThomson]

Ok, so under what standard are you claiming the vaccine works but ivermectin does not?

United States: COVID-19 weekly death rate by vaccination status

Death rates are calculated as the number of deaths in each group, divided by the total number of people in this group. This is given per 100,000 people.

ourworldindata.org

Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com

KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of...

www.merck.com

 

[Checkthisout]

Not true, there are other vaccienes available and approved.


Nonsense, the numbers are out there. Of course you could argue that every death is essentially from a heart that sops beating.


No one made the virus, if some one had they would have produced evidence of that.


Covid is in the animal population, it will continue to evolve and spread, the vaccines give you better odds at mild symptoms and surviving it.


The close proximity of kids makes the likelihood of spreading covid among them greater and they are taking the illness home. Kids should be in school, but they also need parents and grandparents.


Doctors are telling people to get vaccinated, my sister in law who nearly died from covid was vaccinated before she left the hospital. That doesn't upset me because the vaccines are safe.


People are mad for all sorts of weird reasons, why do we give into them? It was not that long ago in the US people were upset because a black kid could go to the same school as white kids.


What annoys me is that there are people who believe they know better than the fast majority of the experts despite the fact they had no formal training or experience in the subject.

The vaccine they gave you during delta and omicron was the same one they gave for the alpha strain. Your argument that you need to continually take the vaccine is moot in light of this info.

It's also not nonsense. Attributing a 98 year old nursing home patients death to covid and locking kindergartens out of school because of it is wrong. On the other side of the coin, look at the number of fentanyl deaths attributed to covid in the 0-17 years age group.

As for everything else, if locking kids out of school was done under the guise they would kill their parents, we know that would never work but more importantly the honorable thing for grandma to do would have been to take the hit so children could have normal childhoods.

 

[Checkthisout]

United States: COVID-19 weekly death rate by vaccination status

Death rates are calculated as the number of deaths in each group, divided by the total number of people in this group. This is given per 100,000 people.

ourworldindata.org

Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com

KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of...

www.merck.com

I want your opinion, not links to articles. I'll check the articles after you tell me why you think it doesn't work and that vaccines do.

 

[LeoThomson]

Simply ramping up N95 masks and saying, "Wear this indoors everywhere but home" would have given 80% or greater protection. Lowering the "R" from 1.x to 0.2, and allowing lockdowns to end rapidly.

The mask was to spreading it to others in case you had it. Even then it was a far from perfect solution.

I'm painfully aware of the unreliability of anecdotal evidence, and keep pushing back against it for the "other" big issue of the past few years.
Statistics tells truths, while anecdotes are used to sway people.

But I saw drastically different claims for the relative effectiveness of vaccination vs. infection-acquired immunity, between U.S. reports and what I saw elsewhere.

The problem is that it is difficult to reliably test in such a short time frame. When the vaccine is safe and reliable, the best bet is to just take the vaccine.

I also saw through the claims of anti-vaxxers, such as the death rates in VAERS. The number of deaths reported day of shot was the expected number for the age group getting vaccinated early on. The number reported day after deaths was already below expected death rate, and of course less and less each day after it.



And that is all they do with it?

I don't understand them, there are legitimate question to be asked and answered, but I don't think people like Bob or me are taken seriously by the experts.

 

[LeoThomson]

I want your opinion, not links to articles. I'll check the articles after you tell me why you think it doesn't work and that vaccines do.

My opinion is irrelevant. I defer to authority since I have no expertise in the subject.

 

[Checkthisout]

I don't understand them, there are legitimate question to be asked and answered, but I don't think people like Bob or me are taken seriously by the experts.

Once they told you to take the vaccine even though you already had covid and that a prior infection was not a substitute for having to get the vaccine, that should have raised red flags with you.

Why did it not?

 

[Checkthisout]

My opinion is irrelevant. I defer to authority since I have no expertise in the subject.

For somebody who is claiming to be nothing more than a vessel for other people's thoughts, you sure spend a lot of time on here arguing.

It's an easy question.

Under what standard does the vaccine work and ivermectin does not?

Infection prevention?
Hospitalization?
Severity of symptoms?
Death?

 

[LeoThomson]

Once they told you to take the vaccine even though you already had covid and that a prior infection was not a substitute for having to get the vaccine, that should have raised red flags with you.

Why did it not?

I got covid after I got vaccinated.

There are other vaccines you get after infection, rabies for example.

 

[Checkthisout]

I got covid after I got vaccinated.

Of course you did.

Even though you caught it, the vaccine still worked because you didn't die but if you had been taking ivermectin, you would claim ivermectin did not work because even though you were taking ivermectin, you still caught the disease.

 

[LeoThomson]

For somebody who is claiming to be nothing more than a vessel for other people's thoughts, you sure spend a lot of time on here arguing.

Absolutly, you have people here claiming they know better than the virologists and the maker of ivermectin.

It's an easy question.

Under what standard does the vaccine work and ivermectin does not.

Infection prevention?
Hospitalization?
Severity of symptoms?
Death?

Vaccine doesn't prevent infection after the first few months, it does reduce severity of symptoms long term, hospitalization and covid related deaths.

Ivermectin has not shown to have any effects according to the company that makes ivermectin. (don't get me wrong, I want ivermectin or any other medication to work)

 

[LeoThomson]

Of course you did.

Even though you caught it, the vaccine still worked because you didn't die but if you had been taking ivermectin, you would claim ivermectin did not work because even though you were taking ivermectin, you still caught the disease.

I made no such claim. Nor would I make such a claim as it would be anecdotal evidence which we both agree is fairly useless in the scheme of things.

 

[Checkthisout]

Vaccine doesn't prevent infection after the first few months, it does reduce severity of symptoms long term, hospitalization and covid related deaths.

Ivermectin has not shown to have any effects according to the company that makes ivermectin. (don't get me wrong, I want ivermectin or any other medication to work)

The vaccine never prevented infection at anytime.

And ivermectin has never shown to have any effects on what?

What are your comparing it to, in other words in the title of this thread, what is the control group?