Do We Need a Control Group?

[Hedges]

Yes...for treating parasites.

Is it possible ivermectin has beneficial impact on Covid, for at least some patients?
I know studies say it does not. Others claim it does. Possibly, that depended on condition of the patients, or possibly it does offer no benefit.

Here is an article which at least offers an explanation in scientific or pseudo-scientific terms.

Ivermectin’s Mechanism Against COVID Described

www.theepochtimes.com

Paywalled, but just type ^a ^c before the paywall pops up, then paste in Word.

 

[Bob B]

There are around 100 studies for Ivermectin effectiveness against Covid .... I have posted a link to an analysis that had links to all of them. Can't remember if it was on this thread or not.
The bottom line is that the vast majority of the studies found Ivermectin to be effective. The studies that didn't were not designed correctly ... some used 1/2 or less of an effective dose .... some used an almost fatal dose .... Some used it too late in the course of the virus. It's pretty crazy that some of the people doing these studies call themselves scientists.
Ivermectin is most effective as a prophylactic or in conjunction with other medicines early in the course of the virus. There were a lot of doctors around the world who found effective early treatment protocols .... I have posted links to many of those also. Some of them used Ivermectin as part of those protocols and some did not ... there many effective early treatment protocols, and I am in the camp who believe early treatment and prophylaxes should have been where the focus was.

At the height of the virus, I diligently used a nebulizer treatment designed to kill the virus in the sinus and throat before it could infect the rest of the system .... no, there was no Ivermectin in the nebulizer treatment.

We did the nebulizer treatments, keep vitamin D levels in the upper 2/3 of its range .... as determined by blood tests, took zinc with copper and quercitin and a few other common sense things. I believe that vitamin D levels are one of the most important things. My wife, myself, and my daughter all have never tested positive for Covid .... my daughter works at a retail store and all her co-workers have had it ..... some of them multiple times. I am sure we have been exposed to it, but the combination of things we were doing were effective enough to never become symptomatic.

It does very little good to cherry pick individual studies without being aware that there are a LOT of studies .... I would suggest finding the analysis that looks at all the studies and decide based on that.
If I run across the link to that analysis I will post it again.

 

[LeoThomson]

Like many drugs, Ivermectin has formulations and dose levels for both humans and animals, and is FDA approved for use in humans for a variety of conditions. Penicillin is another - does that make Penicillin a "horse antibiotic"?

If you know this, why do you feel you have to mischaracterize things? It doesn't strengthen your position; it weakens it because it makes you appear uninformed.

Don't take this as support for experimental use of ivermectin to treat COVID. It's not.

They take ivermectin, an animal dewormer and change the dose, even though it has been shown not to work and potentially dangerous to human health.

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(05)62378-1.pdf

It is as smart as people taking a home made abortion pill.

Anarchist Collective Shares Instructions to Make DIY Abortion Pills

DIY medicine collectives are preparing for the horrifying prospect that Roe v. Wade will be overturned.

www.vice.com

 

[LeoThomson]

There are around 100 studies for Ivermectin effectiveness against Covid .... I have posted a link to an analysis that had links to all of them. Can't remember if it was on this thread or not.
The bottom line is that the vast majority of the studies found Ivermectin to be effective. The studies that didn't were not designed correctly ... some used 1/2 or less of an effective dose .... some used an almost fatal dose .... Some used it too late in the course of the virus. It's pretty crazy that some of the people doing these studies call themselves scientists.
Ivermectin is most effective as a prophylactic or in conjunction with other medicines early in the course of the virus. There were a lot of doctors around the world who found effective early treatment protocols .... I have posted links to many of those also. Some of them used Ivermectin as part of those protocols and some did not ... there many effective early treatment protocols, and I am in the camp who believe early treatment and prophylaxes should have been where the focus was.

At the height of the virus, I diligently used a nebulizer treatment designed to kill the virus in the sinus and throat before it could infect the rest of the system .... no, there was no Ivermectin in the nebulizer treatment.

We did the nebulizer treatments, keep vitamin D levels in the upper 2/3 of its range .... as determined by blood tests, took zinc with copper and quercitin and a few other common sense things. I believe that vitamin D levels are one of the most important things. My wife, myself, and my daughter all have never tested positive for Covid .... my daughter works at a retail store and all her co-workers have had it ..... some of them multiple times. I am sure we have been exposed to it, but the combination of things we were doing were effective enough to never become symptomatic.

It does very little good to cherry pick individual studies without being aware that there are a LOT of studies .... I would suggest finding the analysis that looks at all the studies and decide based on that.
If I run across the link to that analysis I will post it again.

The notion that you know better then the fast majority of trained scientists and health care professionals should give you pause. (to put it politely)

Ivermectin shown ineffective in treating COVID-19, according to multi-site study including KU Medical Center

Results of the study of the antiparasitic medication, once a much-discussed potential treatment for COVID-19, were published in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

www.kumc.edu

 

[bradbill]

Is it possible ivermectin has beneficial impact on Covid, for at least some patients?
I know studies say it does not. Others claim it does. Possibly, that depended on condition of the patients, or possibly it does offer no benefit.

Here is an article which at least offers an explanation in scientific or pseudo-scientific terms.

Ivermectin’s Mechanism Against COVID Described

www.theepochtimes.com

Paywalled, but just type ^a ^c before the paywall pops up, then paste in Word.

LOL...the epoch times!

 

[LeoThomson]

Is it possible ivermectin has beneficial impact on Covid, for at least some patients?

Yes, it is possible. It is also possible that drinking disinfectant has a beneficial impact on Covid, for at least some patients. (But no sane person would recommend people drinking bleach or take ivermectin when the latter has been shown not to work in clinical trials.

 

[Hedges]

It is quite easy to engineer clinical trials to show no benefit.
My wife brought a brochure from a doctor's office, which described a trial that showed glucosamine pills provided no benefit for joint pain.
(Their business was selling glucosamine injections.)
My sister had given me a bottle of glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, which fixed my problem within a month.
She had also read reports of trials of supplements where X-ray showed growth of cartilage using that blend.

A trial of a supplement containing just one ingredient, not the other two, would of course have different results.
Analysis of supplements, various brands, showed that virtually all had less than claimed, or none at all, of the more expensive ingredients.
Only a couple actually provided the needed ingredients in the percentages shown on label.
Many products also contained ingredients like white willow bark extract (aspirin) which immediately alleviates pain but suppresses growth of cartilage.


Yeah, I know. Epoch Times is a blatant spammer of misinformation now.

But is it possible that Ivermectin does have a medical effect which improves outcomes of patients, as the article claims?

"Disinfectant"? "Industrial bleach"? Chlorine dioxide is FDA approved for human consumption. It is used for water purification.
"Animal de-wormer"? Ivermectin is FDA approved for human use, and with 1B doses administered, one of the safest medications known to mankind.

While it may be that neither of those has any benefit for Covid, or maybe they do, public announcements of ridicule (rather than acknowledging some formulations are FDA approved but offering evidence they don't work against Covid) are unprofessional and make the source untrustworthy.

 

[LeoThomson]

It is quite easy to engineer clinical trials to show no benefit.

If that is true, it is also quite easy to engineer clinical trials to show benefit and therefore we can't rust any clinical trials ever. And if the profit motive disturbs you, there is no point in paying for any kind treatment.

Ivermectin is FDA approved for human use

Ok so you trust the FDA.

Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19

Using the Drug ivermectin to treat COVID-19 can be dangerous and even lethal. The FDA has not approved the drug for that purpose.

www.fda.gov

It also states "The most effective ways to limit the spread of COVID-19 include getting a COVID-19 vaccine when it is available to you and following current CDC guidance."

 

[Hedges]

Profit motive is a reason to game the system. I might consider some treatments.

Others make false grandiose claims for their 15 minutes of fame.

But do you trust more those who profit from the treatment, or those who describe something you can obtain locally without benefitting them?

I trust them about as far as I can throw them. I'm just saying you shouldn't mock people for trying human formulations of Ivermectin when it is FDA approved. To do so is avoiding scientific debate.

N95 is more effective at preventing covid than the vaccine, except when the original variant was roaming the earth.
(doesn't help against hospitalization or death if you do contract covid, of course.
Effectiveness of N95 is something Fauci knew when he lied to the public, before any vaccine was available. It would have lowered the "R" below 1, stopping the exponential spread and saving lives including those of nurses and doctors.

"Clinical trials assessing ivermectin tablets for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19 in people are ongoing."

So they might in the future say that this drug could have saved a million lives after all. But I'm not holding my breath.
No one in this country, who has a career related to medicine, dares go against the party line regarding Covid.

Neither FDA nor CDC, nor WHO, can be trusted to look out for the health of the individual. Some researchers and doctors may, but they have to be careful what they say. Research is largely funded by industry and government. Not by NPR or any other public interest group. If you want to do funded research in the future, you know how to play the game.

 

[Bob B]

Profit motive is a reason to game the system. I might consider some treatments.

Others make false grandiose claims for their 15 minutes of fame.

But do you trust more those who profit from the treatment, or those who describe something you can obtain locally without benefitting them?

I trust them about as far as I can throw them. I'm just saying you shouldn't mock people for trying human formulations of Ivermectin when it is FDA approved. To do so is avoiding scientific debate.

N95 is more effective at preventing covid than the vaccine, except when the original variant was roaming the earth.
(doesn't help against hospitalization or death if you do contract covid, of course.
Effectiveness of N95 is something Fauci knew when he lied to the public, before any vaccine was available. It would have lowered the "R" below 1, stopping the exponential spread and saving lives including those of nurses and doctors.

"Clinical trials assessing ivermectin tablets for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19 in people are ongoing."

So they might in the future say that this drug could have saved a million lives after all. But I'm not holding my breath.
No one in this country, who has a career related to medicine, dares go against the party line regarding Covid.

Neither FDA nor CDC, nor WHO, can be trusted to look out for the health of the individual. Some researchers and doctors may, but they have to be careful what they say. Research is largely funded by industry and government. Not by NPR or any other public interest group. If you want to do funded research in the future, you know how to play the game.

I wasn't just Ivermectin that was suppressed. There were several existing medications that were found to be effective fighting Covid ... all ... of them were suppressed. The finding on most of them ... even though benefit was shown was that more study was needed ... and of course more study was never done.
If ANY treatment was officially certified be effective against Covid, the emergency use authorizations for the vaccines could never have been done.

 

[Bob B]

Anyone who is REALLY interested in knowing about the Ivermectin studies should study this analysis of ALL the studies.

Ivermectin for COVID-19: real-time meta analysis of 104 studies

104 ivermectin COVID-19 controlled studies. 85% improvement for prophylaxis, p < 0.0001. 61% improvement for early treatment, p < 0.0001. 40% improvement for late treatment, p < 0.0001. ivmmeta

c19ivm.org

 

[LeoThomson]

Anyone who is REALLY interested in knowing about the Ivermectin studies should study this analysis of ALL the studies.

Anyone who is REALLY interested (but doesn't have the education nor expertise to interpret the studies) in knowing about ivermectin should ignore the conspiracy theorists and check the facts.

Clinical Trials Show Ivermectin Does Not Benefit COVID-19 Patients, Contrary to Social Media Claims - FactCheck.org

Randomized clinical trials have repeatedly found that ivermectin does not benefit COVID-19 patients. The National Institutes of Health recommends against its use for COVID-19. Ivermectin enthusiasts continue to falsely claim the contrary.

www.factcheck.org

 

[LeoThomson]

Profit motive is a reason to game the system. I might consider some treatments.

Profit is what makes capitalism work and we know communism doesn't (until AI provides us with all we need)

Others make false grandiose claims for their 15 minutes of fame.

Yep.

But do you trust more those who profit from the treatment, or those who describe something you can obtain locally without benefitting them?

I trust professionals over lay people when there is oversight. There is a reason I don't go to faith healers. You'd never hear a religious person say "dearly beloved, we are gathered here today because your prayers didn't work"

I trust them about as far as I can throw them.

Your choice.

I'm just saying you shouldn't mock people for trying human formulations of Ivermectin when it is FDA approved. To do so is avoiding scientific debate.

That debate should and does take place among experts. A random person on the internet is the last place I would look for for medical advise.

N95 is more effective at preventing covid than the vaccine, except when the original variant was roaming the earth.

The mask was an attempt to limit the spread by infected people, just like the reason the staff in the operating room wear masks. There are still people today who do not get that.

(doesn't help against hospitalization or death if you do contract covid, of course.

Indeed.

Effectiveness of N95 is something Fauci knew when he lied to the public, before any vaccine was available. It would have lowered the "R" below 1, stopping the exponential spread and saving lives including those of nurses and doctors.

Did he lie or was that miscommunication?

"Clinical trials assessing ivermectin tablets for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19 in people are ongoing."

Good, I want a cure for covid, just like I want a cure for all other illnesses.

So they might in the future say that this drug could have saved a million lives after all. But I'm not holding my breath.

Maybe, but it has had a lot of attention and (sadly) the consensus is that it doesn't work.

No one in this country, who has a career related to medicine, dares go against the party line regarding Covid.

But you see the same in other countries. Usually (but not always) the consensus is right.

Neither FDA nor CDC, nor WHO, can be trusted to look out for the health of the individual. Some researchers and doctors may, but they have to be careful what they say. Research is largely funded by industry and government. Not by NPR or any other public interest group. If you want to do funded research in the future, you know how to play the game.

If it is not funded through government, who should fund it?

 

[Bob B]

 

[klystron]

Yes, it is possible. It is also possible that drinking disinfectant has a beneficial impact on Covid, for at least some patients. (But no sane person would recommend people drinking bleach or take ivermectin when the latter has been shown not to work in clinical trials.

Has anyone ever recommended such a thing?

 

[LeoThomson]

Has anyone ever recommended such a thing?

Wikipedia has a list of the more common, some insane, recommendations. Hedges has even suggested it is safe to use bleach as it is used to disinfect drinking water. I suspect he knows it isn't safe and that he is just playing silly buggers...

 

[LeoThomson]

Again "Dr. John Campbell" is not a medical doctor. He has been criticised for suggesting COVID-19 deaths have been over-counted, repeating false claims about the use of ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment, and providing misleading commentary about the safety of COVID-19 vaccines.

The real COVID-19 death count in England not overstated

Since the COVID-19 pandemic began, some critics of measures to control the virus have downplayed its seriousness, sugges

www.politifact.com

 

[Hedges]

Wikipedia has a list of the more common, some insane, recommendations. Hedges has even suggested it is safe to use bleach as it is used to disinfect drinking water. I suspect he knows it isn't safe and that he is just playing silly buggers...

Not joking. I'm referring to some people mocking the use of "industrial bleach" to treat Covid, which is obviously a stupid idea?

Therefore, my remark that mocking people rather than acknowledging something is FDA approved (for some purposes), and showing evidence that it is not suitable for treatment of Covid, is unprofessional.

Fake Coronavirus Cures, Part 1: MMS is Industrial Bleach - FactCheck.org

Online posts have claimed to reveal various "cures" for the new coronavirus. Some are benign, like eating boiled garlic, while others are potentially dangerous, like drinking chlorine dioxide, an industrial bleach. Neither will cure the virus.

www.factcheck.org

Justice Department Seeks to End Illegal Online Sale of Industrial Bleach Marketed as “Miracle” Treatment for COVID-19

www.justice.gov

The so-called "industrial bleach" they refer to is chlorine dioxide, an approved water purification method:

https://www.amazon.com/Potable-Aqua-Chlorine-Dioxide-Purification/dp/B000IBY64W

How to Purify Water on the Trail

Purifying water is an essential skill for hikers and backpackers. Learn how to treat water with filters, purifiers, UV light, boiling, and chemicals.

www.backpacker.com

I think I looked up that 1 ppm in water was the FDA approved safe and effective concentration for that purpose.
Toxic levels are also known. Then there are levels in between.

As a cure for what ails ya, it is probably snake oil. But it could have some beneficial effect for some things. Maybe in the GI tract. Maybe it stimulates some response elsewhere in the body.

MMS | Miracle Mineral Supplement | Chlorine Dioxide

Chlorine Dioxide (MMS) is a Potent Anti Bacterial, Anti Fungal & Bacterial Compound. Learn how this Product Works.

www.mms-supplement.com

Apparently, what the purveyors are doing is providing materials and instructions, while avoiding describing exactly how to make human-safe doses (can't be accused of giving medical advice.) Some self-medicating users have been known to skip the step of diluting to a suitable concentration.

That would not be the only "Generally Recognized as Safe" substance someone overdosed on:

Personal trainer dies from caffeine overdose after accidentally drinking the equivalent of 200 cups of coffee, reports say

Tom Mansfield, father-of-two from Colwyn Bay, Wales, got his "maths wrong" when measuring caffeine powder, a coroner said.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Hedges]

Again "Dr. John Campbell" is not a medical doctor. He has been criticised for suggesting COVID-19 deaths have been over-counted, repeating false claims about the use of ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment, and providing misleading commentary about the safety of COVID-19 vaccines.

The real COVID-19 death count in England not overstated

Since the COVID-19 pandemic began, some critics of measures to control the virus have downplayed its seriousness, sugges

www.politifact.com

Perhaps. But do you disagree with his pointing out that "All cause mortality" is elevated in major countries on opposite hemispheres? That Covid is only reported as a fraction of those deaths? That the excess deaths are in all age groups?

He is saying that reason for significant increase in deaths as compared to years prior to 2020 should be investigated.

Now, what might be found is that they are due to increased domestic violence, or other violence, or drinking. Or it could be organs damaged by a bout of Covid. Or, it could be injury from Covid vaccine - we do know of a couple things, rare fatal blood clotting disorder in certain groups, rare fatal myocarditis in others. The acknowledged numbers are small. Could there be additional harmful effects not officially acknowledged?

One report I heard of a while back was increased percentage of life insurance claims among working-aged people. Those were specifically for policies through the employer, so I have a question which has not been answered: Was the elevated rate of life insurance deaths elevated for any given occupation? Because lockdowns resulted in some people staying home but other "essential workers" continued to work, the percentage of employed people in various applications changed. Therefore, overall claims percentages could be skewed by changed job mix.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, a Covid-denier, nor a blind supporter of all medical interventions.
I'm a born-again cynic, and I believe in both the good and the evil of people. I look for evidence to support or refute claims.

 

[LeoThomson]

Perhaps. But do you disagree with his pointing out that "All cause mortality" is elevated in major countries on opposite hemispheres? That Covid is only reported as a fraction of those deaths? That the excess deaths are in all age groups?

I have not looked at excess deaths, I simply accept what the experts tell me. They look at the same data you and I look at and they are trained to interpret it in a meaningful way.

He is saying that reason for significant increase in deaths as compared to years prior to 2020 should be investigated.

He can say whatever he likes, but even without his (debunked) claims, I am sure many books and papers will be written about this pandemic in years to come. What makes me worried is how unprepared we are to deal with pandemics.

Now, what might be found is that they are due to increased domestic violence, or other violence, or drinking. Or it could be organs damaged by a bout of Covid. Or, it could be injury from Covid vaccine - we do know of a couple things, rare fatal blood clotting disorder in certain groups, rare fatal myocarditis in others. The acknowledged numbers are small. Could there be additional harmful effects not officially acknowledged?

There are so many scenarios we can imagine, that doesn't make them facts. My grandmother had pneumonia and was in a lot of pain, doctors gave her morphine, my sister in law, a registered nurse, told us that the amount of morphine would put her to sleep and she would not wake up from it. My grandmothers death was technically a morphine overdose although on the death certificate it was listed as pneumonia as the morphine was administered to stop her suffering. From what I understand from another sister in law who thanks to the efforts of medical professionals in hospital, survived covid (3 months in induced coma) she felt like she was slowly suffocating. If she had died, would her death have been from suffocation or covid? (BTW my grandmother was aware and perfectly happy to be given the overdose)

One report I heard of a while back was increased percentage of life insurance claims among working-aged people. Those were specifically for policies through the employer, so I have a question which has not been answered: Was the elevated rate of life insurance deaths elevated for any given occupation? Because lockdowns resulted in some people staying home but other "essential workers" continued to work, the percentage of employed people in various applications changed. Therefore, overall claims percentages could be skewed by changed job mix.

No idea, whatever we do insurance companies will try to find ways to scam the policy holders and some policy holders will try to scame the insurance companies.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, a Covid-denier, nor a blind supporter of all medical interventions.
I'm a born-again cynic, and I believe in both the good and the evil of people. I look for evidence to support or refute claims.

I am a natural born skeptic, I question everything, which is how I became a atheist during bible classes at a very young age. It can even be a curse, things like getting started with DIY batteries was a major hurdle in part because I understand how dangerous those things can potentially be. Watching Will's video's who did not claim to be an expert, helped me a lot.

I am aware of my own inabilities, I could never be a medical doctor, even if I was smart enough, I don't have the patience to go through university for that long, work as an intern and I don't have enough confidence in making the right diagnoses. There are people who can do that and they deserve my respect.

The idea that the fast majority of the medical professionals all over the world are working together in secret to perpetrate a scam to fool politicians into taking extraordinary measures and that some one like Bob, who has had no medical training, has discovered the "truth" is quite silly though.

When you see that Myocarditis is higher in people who have had covid than in people who have had the vaccine, it still makes sense to take the vaccine to reduce the risk of getting Myocarditis. Then again, this logic would escape most people.

I want a cure for covid, just as much as I want a vaccine for covid. And for what it is worth, I also have a problem with profit driven medicine, but at least in America, that topic is taboo and not relevant to the efficacy of the vaccines or potential treatments.

Moderna CEO: 400% price hike on COVID vaccine “consistent with the value”

Lawmakers have already called Pfizer's similar plan "pure and deadly greed."

arstechnica.com

 

[Hedges]

The large multiple increase in covid vaccine price seems entirely justified, considering the greatly reduced number of doses which will be administrated in the future (both due to vaccine fatigue and not being free for the recipient.)
When you sell billions of doses to the government, of course the price will be lower. Same is true of many other commodities.
Besides, when these things were rolled out, they were sold for manufacturing cost with supposedly zero markup. And of course pharmaceutical companies required indemnification, when not charging extra to cover injury claims.

It does not appear the experts are looking into excess deaths.
I do believe they would deliberately turn a blind eye, if they had any suspicion the deaths could be attributed to vaccine injuries, because the benefit to society from having everyone vaccinated is so much greater than the cost of a few excess deaths. (i.e. exactly the same as your reasoning regarding myocarditis, which I believe is sound so long as it is analyzed for each demographic group independently.)

 

[Bob B]

The large multiple increase in covid vaccine price seems entirely justified, considering the greatly reduced number of doses which will be administrated in the future (both due to vaccine fatigue and not being free for the recipient.)
When you sell billions of doses to the government, of course the price will be lower. Same is true of many other commodities.
Besides, when these things were rolled out, they were sold for manufacturing cost with supposedly zero markup. And of course pharmaceutical companies required indemnification, when not charging extra to cover injury claims.

It does not appear the experts are looking into excess deaths.
I do believe they would deliberately turn a blind eye, if they had any suspicion the deaths could be attributed to vaccine injuries, because the benefit to society from having everyone vaccinated is so much greater than the cost of a few excess deaths. (i.e. exactly the same as your reasoning regarding myocarditis, which I believe is sound so long as it is analyzed for each demographic group independently.)

All of the uncertainty is exactly why the unvaccinated control group is so important.
The landscape is totally confused by the number of studies and analyses that have been done solely to achieve a desired result.

We will have to wait and see who takes over the responsibility of commissioning studies ... hopefully it will be someone who is more interested the truth than protecting the narrative.

I have seen charts that show incidence of myocarditis .... and other heart related problems ...... is much higher in the vaccine induced group than the Covid induced group .... I will post that comparison if I see it again.
I have also seen an article from a cardiology group who was giving a blood test for Troponin T which is a marker of people who have heard disease or have had a heart attack. A scary percentage of young people had an increase in this marker after the vaccine. This would be an easy study to commission. Once the heart is damaged .... it is forever damaged .... there is no such thing as myocarditis that corrects itself.

When someone wants to ignore the analysis of 95 Ivermectin studies and then dismiss it as horse de-wormer ... you know that engaging with them will never make a difference.
I will post studies and analyses I find interesting and keep hoping there will be more and more studies that will utilize the unvaccinated control group to scientifically determine the truth.
I am done trying to engage those who are simply trolls ..... or refuse the admit science that disagrees with their opinion ... and who would rather post articles from self proclaimed fact checkers who are actually the opposite of what they claim .... Oh, and I hope you (Hedges) realize that none of these comments are pointed at you .... I think you are genuinely trying to analyze the science.

 

[brb58]

LOL

Hilarious

You only look at studies from fringe groups and doctors that support your wacked out narrative.

 

[LeoThomson]

The large multiple increase in covid vaccine price seems entirely justified, considering the greatly reduced number of doses which will be administrated in the future (both due to vaccine fatigue and not being free for the recipient.)
When you sell billions of doses to the government, of course the price will be lower. Same is true of many other commodities.
Besides, when these things were rolled out, they were sold for manufacturing cost with supposedly zero markup. And of course pharmaceutical companies required indemnification, when not charging extra to cover injury claims.

Not going to discus business models, you guys (half America) are just too weird, at one stage there were talks of "death panels" in universal health care... My gut reaction is that for profit medicine is wrong, you guys decided differently and I am happy to use the US system as an example why we shouldn't follow that path.

It does not appear the experts are looking into excess deaths.
I do believe they would deliberately turn a blind eye, if they had any suspicion the deaths could be attributed to vaccine injuries, because the benefit to society from having everyone vaccinated is so much greater than the cost of a few excess deaths. (i.e. exactly the same as your reasoning regarding myocarditis, which I believe is sound so long as it is analyzed for each demographic group independently.)

1,000 excess deaths each week as the NHS buckles

Fifty thousand more people died last year than normal, with NHS delays blamed for one of the most deadly 12 months on record.Excluding the pandemic years, 2022

www.thetimes.co.uk

Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19

Figures present excess deaths associated with COVID-19 at the national and state levels.

www.cdc.gov

Excess mortality: Cumulative deaths from all causes compared to projection based on previous years

The cumulative difference between the reported number of deaths since 1 January 2020 and the projected number of deaths for the same period based on previous years.

ourworldindata.org

 

[Bob B]

Here is another article that shows 17% off teenagers had heart problems after getting the vaccine.
The source for their information is linked in the article. https://alexberenson.substack.com/p...tack&utm_campaign=post_embed&utm_medium=email